How Many Breeds?

[WoofnHoof]

No need to worry. Weims might be like mercedes, but staffies are like fords, and labradors like holdens. We all have to market our brand to the right demographic.

Marketing the brand is more than just creating a logo and a T-shirt and setting up at Pet Expo. We have to get our product right first and really think about who we would like to sell to. We have to target that section of the market and educate them about the breed.

It is not necessary that every breed is well-represented in the Australian pet market. It has come to a time when we should be thinking more globally about dog genetics.

I much prefer this strategy than the elitism connotations, elitism goes through fashions and phases whereas practicality will always win out. Not to mention that denigrating mutts alienates every person whose ever had a good mutt.

It's well and good to say that a purebred might be a better choice, but I certainly wouldn't go with the motto that it's a better dog.

[BJean]

I much prefer this strategy than the elitism connotations, elitism goes through fashions and phases whereas practicality will always win out. Not to mention that denigrating mutts alienates every person whose ever had a good mutt.

It's well and good to say that a purebred might be a better choice, but I certainly wouldn't go with the motto that it's a better dog.

I would.

There's no mutt that is half as good as my pedigree dogs. No mutt can guard better. No mutt can defend better. No mutt is as sound pound for pound. No mutt has better physical resilience. No modern mutt can survive and thrive in environmental extremes like my pedigree dogs can.

No mutt can do what my pedigree dogs do.

Not a chance.

And I bet every dedicated breeder/owner can say the same for their pedigree dogs and their specialisation.

[Guest bigdogg]

Thats a massive call

[WoofnHoof]

I much prefer this strategy than the elitism connotations, elitism goes through fashions and phases whereas practicality will always win out. Not to mention that denigrating mutts alienates every person whose ever had a good mutt.

It's well and good to say that a purebred might be a better choice, but I certainly wouldn't go with the motto that it's a better dog.

I would.

There's no mutt that is half as good as my pedigree dogs. No mutt can guard better. No mutt can defend better. No mutt is as sound pound for pound. No mutt has better physical resilience. No modern mutt can survive and thrive in environmental extremes like my pedigree dogs can.

No mutt can do what my pedigree dogs do.

Not a chance.

And I bet every dedicated breeder/owner can say the same for their pedigree dogs and their specialisation.

Everyone thinks their dog is the best at whatever job they think it does well at, but if you take that slogan to the people I can tell you now it will drive people away from purebred dogs, it's simple PR.

[mita]

Everyone appreciates a well bred animal, horse owners walk their stock with pride, a fit healthy thoroughbred, beautiful Arabian, impressive Percheron, striking Appaloosa - they all enthrall, inspire and capture the imagination -

same with an awesome Newfoundland, elegant Borzoi, spritely hound, devoted Tibbie, handsome Labrador, or pretty Yorkshire ...

Funny you should mention the qualities of the horses, bred for centuries. Experienced Qld rescue person got her first p/b tibetan spaniel in. Knew nothing about the breed.

But she & OH were taken with how 'different' he was from the usual dogs. After a couple of weeks she emailed me & said, 'He's more like our Andalusian horses! He's got the same attitude & nature.'

The little bloke didn't go far. Rescue person & OH adopted him.

What I appreciate is the effort put in by so many people, over time, to keep up the unique qualities of the purebred.

I notice it, because there's such a strong international flavour with the tibbies. Due to a sadness in the background, I've been offered a p/b tibbie girl who originally came to Australia from Sweden, where her dad got his championships in Sweden, Norway & Finland....& her other rellies came from the famous Amcross kennels in the UK. She's even got an Australian dog, back in her line.

I don't think that appreciating the qualities of the purebreds demolishes the special appeal of the good old genuine mixed-breed dogs, with their quirky looks & character. In fact, numbers of people own both. It's just two different things to appreciate.

We equally loved our little mixed-breed dog, Gran, who made history (in her own way!) by becoming the oldest dog patient at the U of Q vet clinic. And got a write-up in the university newspaper when she died.

All the more reason, why the qualities in the purebreeds need to be preserved (cherished!) & given the appropriate PR....and 'marketing'.

Edited January 7, 2010 by mita

[poodlefan]

Thats a massive call

How many reliable crossbred livestock guardians have you heard of bigdogg?

Have a good look around at dogs obtained as pups and working for a living. I'll bet you dont' find many crossbreds.

The reasons most people who need a particular dog for a particular job (or dog sport or family situation) will choose a purebred pup is because the chances of that pup ending being suitable are higher.

With adults you see the finished product.

Crossbred pups are a lottery. Some of us don't like to gamble on a companion that will be with us for 15 years or more. Snobbery has nothing to do with it - its called risk minimization. Get it wrong and its not you who pays when the dog doesn't work out - its the dog.

The dog least likely to find itself in the pound is purebred one purchased from a responsible breeder - and the statistics support that.

Edited January 7, 2010 by poodlefan

[casowner]

I can personally atest to the fact that my CASD's Flock Guardian skills are incomparable to any other dog that I personally have met, I have also never met a dog that is so entrenched in natural instinct. He can not be treated like my other dog at all, it is a learning curve learning how to live with him and his "CAOdom" qualities.

[WoofnHoof]

I'm not arguing that this or that specialised breed isn't better at it's job than a cross I'm just pointing out that if you base a marketing campaign around the generalised concept that purebred is a better 'dog' you will only do harm to the cause. You can say this purebred is a better guardian, a better hunter, a better retriever, better sled dog, better companion or whatever but if you go out there and say 'purebreds are better dogs' you will alienate the majority. I know plenty of people who walk their crossbred horses with pride so I don't really understand the analogy, maybe that's because shows have classes for specific crosses?

Back to topic think of it this way if I went out and said 'oh my breed is awesome at agility they always top the results' versus 'my dog is better at agility than any mutt' which comment would be received well and which comment would get you shunned from the agility set?

Remember that when all the DD stuff began it didn't begin with DB saying 'you should buy these dogs they are better than purebreds' he started off with things like 'by crossing these two breeds you get the best of both worlds' he wasn't stupid he knew that he was marketing mutts and he had to choose the wording carefully. So do we, we need to say something like 'by breeding true to type you get predictable traits and a more specialised dog to match your lifestyle'.

[poodlefan]

Remember that when all the DD stuff began it didn't begin with DB saying 'you should buy these dogs they are better than purebreds' he started off with things like 'by crossing these two breeds you get the best of both worlds' he wasn't stupid he knew that he was marketing mutts and he had to choose the wording carefully. So do we, we need to say something like 'by breeding true to type you get predictable traits and a more specialised dog to match your lifestyle'.

How quickly we forget.

From his website here

Puppy farm is a dirty word in the dog world. It's a term used by foot-in-the door reporters to describe dog breeders who they claim are producing inferior animals. But there is another side.

We visited a puppy farm in Victoria. After years of roadtests on dogs, probably seeing thousands, we've never seen a group of dogs with such good temperaments as seen there. Not only is the temperament fabulous in these dogs, the facilities are wonderful: 2-3 dogs in each run and having the time of their lives.

It is a legitimate animal-breeding business inspected and controlled by government authorities, and would have to be one of the best establishments for dog breeding and dog keeping we've seen.

The featured property allows non-breeding dogs to run in screened enclosures outside, while new puppies and their mothers are housed in heated sheds. It was apparent the outdoor dogs are well socialised with other dogs, as well as having daily human contact.

The principals say they choose their dogs chiefly on temperament, followed by appearance. Their most common mixes are Maltese x Poodle and Maltese x Shih Tzus. Pups cannot be sold before eight weeks of age and for a fortnight after the pups leave the pet shop they're under the care of the breeder's vet who takes care of any problems. They sell by the hundreds in pets shops around Australia and, if pet shop owners are to be believed, have an extremely high satisfaction-rating.

The pups are cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain as they are usually healthier. While this practice is abhorrent to many people who breed and show purebred dogs, it seems the pet-buying public just doesn't agree.

While this is an excellent example of how puppies can be supplied on a business basis, there will always be those in for a quick dollar with little regard for the welfare of their dogs. There are laws to deal with people who are show cruel and inhumane treatment of their dogs.

A code of practice has been set down in Victoria which sets minimum standards of accommodation and health and care. The code of practice is enforced by local government with annual inspections and it's said reports to animal welfare authorities concerning sick puppies have decreased since implementation of the legislation. This good system exists only in Victoria. We believe it is pivotal that groups like the RSPCA and Animal Welfare League co-operate much more fully with government to implement these systems Australia-wide for the good of the dogs. Despite this it seems welfare agencies, such as the RSPCA, which should be supporting businesses like the one portrayed, are still railing against these sorts of places. It is an absolute tragedy that these groups are working against the best interests of dogs.

In the good old days dogs were crossed with any other dog which would produce the best result. About the turn of the century a piece of paper was brought in called a pedigree, and the pedigree meant more than the dog. That piece of paper has all but destroyed a lot of wonderful dog breeds. Out crossing them will make the breeds for the next millennium, and they'll be much better.

And yes, that wonderful puppy farm was the same horror story that features on the ALV website.

And of course, what did Mr Burke own himself? Pedigreed dogs of course

Edited January 7, 2010 by poodlefan

[casowner]

I must say I love my little crossbreed dog with all of my heart, no other little dog could take her place, my cross breed horses are just as loved and as valuable to me as my pure breeds too.

My CASD is a better Flock Guardian than my pom cross and my pom cross is a better snugglepuss than my CASD. Shannon is my companion and "motherer" of all furred and feathered babies and Jake is the "Protector", together we have a complete team

[casowner]

I must say I love my little crossbreed dog with all of my heart, no other little dog could take her place, my cross breed horses are just as loved and as valuable to me as my pure breeds too. I also have 2 hybrid Galah cross Corella babies and a pure Galah, my household has the best of both worlds and while I certainly would never cross breed myself I wouldn't not welcome them into my home.

My CASD is a better Flock Guardian than my pom cross and my pom cross is a better snugglepuss than my CASD. Shannon is my companion and "motherer" of all furred and feathered babies and Jake is the "Protector", together we have a complete team

oops sort of double post with additions, sorry

Edited January 7, 2010 by casowner

[mmoo]

Hi I have Large Munsterlanders, this is a breed that equally at home lying at your feet under the computer table as one of mine is doing right now or pointing flushing or retrieving any sort of game, they also do very well in the show ring when shown, and are absolutely fantastic when competing in dog sports Tracking Agility, and of course Obedience Trialling which they excel in (not that I'm biased or anything) so I would say that the LMs can still do what they were orginally bred for AND THAT IS HUNTING plus every thing that I've mentioned

[WoofnHoof]

Remember that when all the DD stuff began it didn't begin with DB saying 'you should buy these dogs they are better than purebreds' he started off with things like 'by crossing these two breeds you get the best of both worlds' he wasn't stupid he knew that he was marketing mutts and he had to choose the wording carefully. So do we, we need to say something like 'by breeding true to type you get predictable traits and a more specialised dog to match your lifestyle'.

How quickly we forget.

From his website here

Puppy farm is a dirty word in the dog world. It's a term used by foot-in-the door reporters to describe dog breeders who they claim are producing inferior animals. But there is another side.

We visited a puppy farm in Victoria. After years of roadtests on dogs, probably seeing thousands, we've never seen a group of dogs with such good temperaments as seen there. Not only is the temperament fabulous in these dogs, the facilities are wonderful: 2-3 dogs in each run and having the time of their lives.

It is a legitimate animal-breeding business inspected and controlled by government authorities, and would have to be one of the best establishments for dog breeding and dog keeping we've seen.

The featured property allows non-breeding dogs to run in screened enclosures outside, while new puppies and their mothers are housed in heated sheds. It was apparent the outdoor dogs are well socialised with other dogs, as well as having daily human contact.

The principals say they choose their dogs chiefly on temperament, followed by appearance. Their most common mixes are Maltese x Poodle and Maltese x Shih Tzus. Pups cannot be sold before eight weeks of age and for a fortnight after the pups leave the pet shop they're under the care of the breeder's vet who takes care of any problems. They sell by the hundreds in pets shops around Australia and, if pet shop owners are to be believed, have an extremely high satisfaction-rating.

The pups are cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain as they are usually healthier. While this practice is abhorrent to many people who breed and show purebred dogs, it seems the pet-buying public just doesn't agree.

While this is an excellent example of how puppies can be supplied on a business basis, there will always be those in for a quick dollar with little regard for the welfare of their dogs. There are laws to deal with people who are show cruel and inhumane treatment of their dogs.

A code of practice has been set down in Victoria which sets minimum standards of accommodation and health and care. The code of practice is enforced by local government with annual inspections and it's said reports to animal welfare authorities concerning sick puppies have decreased since implementation of the legislation. This good system exists only in Victoria. We believe it is pivotal that groups like the RSPCA and Animal Welfare League co-operate much more fully with government to implement these systems Australia-wide for the good of the dogs. Despite this it seems welfare agencies, such as the RSPCA, which should be supporting businesses like the one portrayed, are still railing against these sorts of places. It is an absolute tragedy that these groups are working against the best interests of dogs.

In the good old days dogs were crossed with any other dog which would produce the best result. About the turn of the century a piece of paper was brought in called a pedigree, and the pedigree meant more than the dog. That piece of paper has all but destroyed a lot of wonderful dog breeds. Out crossing them will make the breeds for the next millennium, and they'll be much better.

And yes, that wonderful puppy farm was the same horror story that features on the ALV website. :D

And of course, what did Mr Burke own himself? Pedigreed dogs of course

That might be what's on his website but that's not what he said on the show I remember it very clearly, that was back in the days before websites where if you wanted to know more you had to write to them and ask for a factsheet ;) The thing is he didn't come out with the above rot until after he had already planted the seeds of doubt, once that was done he could come out with the harder stuff.

Anyway it's clear my point has been well and truly missed, good luck with the 'our dogs are better than yours' campaign let me know how that goes

[Guest bigdogg]

Thats a massive call

How many reliable crossbred livestock guardians have you heard of bigdogg?

Have a good look around at dogs obtained as pups and working for a living. I'll bet you dont' find many crossbreds.

The reasons most people who need a particular dog for a particular job (or dog sport or family situation) will choose a purebred pup is because the chances of that pup ending being suitable are higher.

With adults you see the finished product.

Crossbred pups are a lottery. Some of us don't like to gamble on a companion that will be with us for 15 years or more. Snobbery has nothing to do with it - its called risk minimization. Get it wrong and its not you who pays when the dog doesn't work out - its the dog.

The dog least likely to find itself in the pound is purebred one purchased from a responsible breeder - and the statistics support that.

Sorry i should have clarified more..

I am in no way promoting anything for guardian qualities. I have limited experience in this area.

The way it was written, the particular breed was mounted on a pedestal as the BEST. My comment was aimed at other pure dogs that are also guardians.. I 'assumed' any 'mutt' was any dog regardless of its pure or crossbred status. Crossbreeds did not even come to mind.. I probably should have read the post more thoroughly before replying.

What you have written above is totally correct.

The pure description is exactly the same as some lines of working dogs. (crossbreds) They just don't have a pretty prefix name attached to them. They are bred from sound working stock to sound working stock, with certain qualities / attributes being the focus of the breedings. That takes a fair bit of the lottery factor out.

Anyway, i jumped the gun on the original post and took it the wrong way..

Just a quick question though.. What if someone bred two guardian dogs of different breeds together - thus making a cross breed.. Could it not surpass either of the parents capabilities?

Edit: My spelling and punctuation is shocking

Edited January 7, 2010 by bigdogg

[BJean]

Just a quick question though.. What if someone bred two guardian dogs of different breeds together - thus making a cross breed.. Could it not surpass either of the parents capabilities?

No what makes a dog the best at what it does, is not only the combination of the physical and mental -

but how the physical and mental are pefectly attuned to the total dog.

ie The Maremma and Central Asian are both excellent stock guardians, but they each go about their guardian roles differently because of their unique mental and physical attributes.

The maremma prefers to outhink and out manouvre, barking to raise alarm and to warn off threats, only using physical confrontation as an absolute last resort.

the central asian is not as lithe as the maremma, it is not going to run back and forth from the fence line to issue warnings. when it gets up it goes straight to physical confrontation. it is not built to run the yards the maremma does, it hasn't got the subtle strategy that the maremma knows. The central asian's upper hand is in physical force and ingrained physical and mental resilience.

A maremma x central asian

will never have the full strength and physical capability of a pure central asian

because the maremma is not built to take and dispense physical assault the way a central asian is

similarly the central asian doesn't know the maremma concept of subtle strategy.

So a maremma x central asian will not last long as a stock guard and will always be an inferior dog to its pure bred counterparts, as a dog cannot address 'threats' with a maremma or central asian game plan if it hasn't got the physical and mental material to carry out that game plan -

a maremma strategy to deal with threatening feral dogs would be to stay close to its flock and shepherd and protect

whereas a central asian would ride out with guns blazing -

each breeds methodolgy is a success only bcz of their respective physical and mental characteristics.

Edited January 7, 2010 by lilli

[myValkyrie]

Just a quick question though.. What if someone bred two guardian dogs of different breeds together - thus making a cross breed.. Could it not surpass either of the parents capabilities?

No ;) what makes a dog the best at what it does, is not only the combination of the physical and mental -

but how the physical and mental are pefectly attuned to the total dog.

ie The Maremma and Central Asian are both excellent stock guardians, but they each go about their guardian roles differently because of their unique mental and physical attributes.

The maremma prefers to outhink and out manouvre, barking to raise alarm and to warn off threats, only using physical confrontation as an absolute last resort.

the central asian is not as lithe as the maremma, it is not going to run back and forth from the fence line to issue warnings. when it gets up it goes straight to physical confrontation. it is not built to run the yards the maremma does, it hasn't got the subtle strategy that the maremma knows. The central asian's upper hand is in physical force and ingrained physical and mental resilience.

A maremma x central asian

will never have the full strength and physical capability of a pure central asian

because the maremma is not built to take and dispense physical assault the way a central asian is

similarly the central asian doesn't know the maremma concept of subtle strategy.

So a maremma x central asian will not last long as a stock guard and will always be an inferior dog to its pure bred counterparts, as a dog cannot address 'threats' with a central asian game plan if it hasn't got the physical and mental material to carry out that game plan -

a maremma strategy to deal with threatening feral dogs would be to stay close to its flock and shepherd and protect

whereas a central asian would ride out with guns blazing -

each breeds methodolgy is a success only bcz of their respective physical and mental characteristics.

Totally agree Lilli - I have been able to observe the results of a local "breeder" with Kangal x Maremma pups, over several litters (perhaps aptly named, & marketed as 'Mangals') & the outcome is not nearly as effective as a livestock guardian as either of the orginal purebreds are. They tend to be "neither fish nor fowl", not working like either breed would - their unpredictability (particularly suspiscion & aggression levels) would be their greatest drawback - they are however, 'rare' and are available in unusual & pretty colours

[Leithy]

Dachshunds were originally meant to hunt the big mean old badger (lol) and seeing as there are no badgers in rural South Australia...

Gypsy has good prey drive, will kill mice and small lizards, but unfortunately likes to bark bark bark at sleepy lizards...thankfully no snakes seen so far this summer...

Meg has about as much prey drive as, say, my pet fish do. On our walk tonight we walked past a rabbit. BOTH girls looked at the rabbit and continued walking, weren't even fazed by it. Same with little dogs too. They'd rather bail up the larger ones, the ones that are about 4x their size... silly dogs....

But I love my girls, great companions and their attitudes and actions have me laughing every day. Right now my Meg is under my bed farting her bum off... phew...

[Guest bigdogg]

Just a quick question though.. What if someone bred two guardian dogs of different breeds together - thus making a cross breed.. Could it not surpass either of the parents capabilities?

No what makes a dog the best at what it does, is not only the combination of the physical and mental -

but how the physical and mental are pefectly attuned to the total dog.

ie The Maremma and Central Asian are both excellent stock guardians, but they each go about their guardian roles differently because of their unique mental and physical attributes.

The maremma prefers to outhink and out manouvre, barking to raise alarm and to warn off threats, only using physical confrontation as an absolute last resort.

the central asian is not as lithe as the maremma, it is not going to run back and forth from the fence line to issue warnings. when it gets up it goes straight to physical confrontation. it is not built to run the yards the maremma does, it hasn't got the subtle strategy that the maremma knows. The central asian's upper hand is in physical force and ingrained physical and mental resilience.

A maremma x central asian

will never have the full strength and physical capability of a pure central asian

because the maremma is not built to take and dispense physical assault the way a central asian is

similarly the central asian doesn't know the maremma concept of subtle strategy.

So a maremma x central asian will not last long as a stock guard and will always be an inferior dog to its pure bred counterparts, as a dog cannot address 'threats' with a maremma or central asian game plan if it hasn't got the physical and mental material to carry out that game plan -

a maremma strategy to deal with threatening feral dogs would be to stay close to its flock and shepherd and protect

whereas a central asian would ride out with guns blazing -

each breeds methodolgy is a success only bcz of their respective physical and mental characteristics.

Too easy - thanks for the reply.

Guardians are certainly different to working / hunting dogs then - you can successfully cross different dogs to get a 'all in one' package that is better than the parents. All to do with line breeding - and the results are the proof.

Never heard of the central asian before - how do you train them to not go straight to physical confrontation if the intruder is accidentally there or just passing through? Say a skippy hops through your flock - does the dog know better to only protect against predators? Like i said i dont know much about guardians.

[casowner]

A kangaroo would only hop onto my property once, you see them 20 metres away along the boundary line but never on my fence. In Jakes case unless it is introduced it is automatically a threat, that is why I have to be vigilent went it comes to who and what comes to his territory.

[Guest bigdogg]

A kangaroo would only hop onto my property once, you see them 20 metres away along the boundary line but never on my fence. In Jakes case unless it is introduced it is automatically a threat, that is why I have to be vigilent went it comes to who and what comes to his territory.

Wow - well they are doing a job i suppose..

How do you define boundaries for them? As in your fence opposed to your neighbours paddock.

What if a person / kid went onto your property or too close accidentally - or are they good with humans?