How Many Breeds?

[mita]

Tibetan Spaniels were bred, for centuries, to be inside companion dogs to the monks in the Buddhist monasteries of Tibet....& alert little watchdogs as they sat out on the high ledges. There, called Jemtse Apso ('scissored' dog....i.e small).

They still are today... great inside companion dogs & very good alert watchdogs. And applied as Therapy Dogs & Hearing Dogs.

You can take the Tibbies out of Tibet... but you can't take the Tibetan Buddhist out of the Tibbie. :D

Edited January 2, 2010 by mita

[Gayle.]

Personally I take my hat off to any breeder who both exhibits and works their dogs. They are few and far between and frankly I think if more people took an interest in the working side of their breeds there would be more opportunities to give dogs an outlet for their instinct and a better standard of dog in the long run.

With Australian Shepherds, it's actually very common for a breeder to both exhibit and "work" their dogs....mainly in herding. And I know of a few Aussie breeders who not only compete in herding trials but are also herding judges and run herding clinics for beginners and more experienced dog owners.

[Diablo]

'sandgrubber' date='2nd Jan 2010 - 09:42 AM' post='4226961']

I wish more breeds did formal temperament screening . . . for many of us, the only temperament testing done is in the show ring. I don't think that the combination of a) not showing aggression or noncompliance; and b) behaviour that shows liking a crowd and showing off in public is a good basis for selecting temperaments that should be passed on.

AS Sandgrubber describes is basically the temperament screening for GSD's in Australia and is one of the subjects as the OP has mentioned that causes volitile arguments discussing GSD breeding practices. The GSD does have a formal breedworthiness test and character assessment process originally devised by the breeds creators in Germany which developed into the Schutzhund test along with other tests which in Germany and many other countries is still used today as the mandatory screening process. Dogs that don't have the attributes and genetic quality to pass these tests are not permitted to be shown or bred and are recorded as such in the breed registeries. It doesn't mean dogs that fail are bad dogs, they can be great pets and companions, but it means they are faulty to the standard, and the type or fault must not be reproduced or a faulty dog be shown in the ring as a correct example of the breed.

Some believe that a GSD of correct type can be produced without the relevant screening processes in place, others argue that it can't be done. Ultimately it's when a GSD is used for it's intended work and fails it's job determines the breed quality and whether our screening process is right or wrong :D

[Diablo]

Personally I think quite a few folk who think their 'show' line dogs can work are deluding themselves."Interest" is not proof of working ability. It's an indicator only. A gundog that shows interest in birds (as do my poodles and Whippet) is not necessarily a gundog that will work at pointing, flushing or retrieving.

The proof of the instinct to work is working. If people are that convinced their dogs retain the aptitude there are ways to test it.

Personally I take my hat off to any breeder who both exhibits and works their dogs. They are few and far between and frankly I think if more people took an interest in the working side of their breeds there would be more opportunities to give dogs an outlet for their instinct and a better standard of dog in the long run.

Somewhere between "bench" and "working' lines there is an overlap. Where that overlap sits is where I think most breeders should be aiming for with their breed programs.

A beautiful but timid Dobermann, a GSD that hides behind its owners legs when strangers approach, a hard mouthed Retriever.. they're all out there.

If there were objective working tests for more breeds and a working and a CH title were required for GR CH I think many breeds would be in a far better position than they are today.

There is an old wives tale that says the darker a Golden Retriever, the greater it's instinct for work. Makes you wonder where that breed is heading.

Highlighted is the primary GSD argument that ignites the fire ;) My view if the dog can work, show us :D

Good post Poodlefan, I totally agree :D

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Personally I take my hat off to any breeder who both exhibits and works their dogs.

The alternative is to form partnerships with people who have expertise. You breed, someone else works them. At the risk of being a show line wankair, the bitch I described in my post above is a half sister to one that went to the middle east and became a very successful hunting dog. That generated the kind of partnership I'm talking about between a breeder and a hunter.

I agree with Nekkers tho', there are very limited opportunities to work here, tho' most people I know with sighthounds on rural blocks know the answer for their dogs. That's much less complex matter than trying to prove working ability in a GSD tho' especially with the current ban on Schutzhund.

[poodlefan]

Personally I take my hat off to any breeder who both exhibits and works their dogs.

The alternative is to form partnerships with people who have expertise. You breed, someone else works them. At the risk of being a show line wankair, the bitch I described in my post above is a half sister to one that went to the middle east and became a very successful hunting dog. That generated the kind of partnership I'm talking about between a breeder and a hunter.

I agree with Nekkers tho', there are very limited opportunities to work here, tho' most people I know with sighthounds on rural blocks know the answer for their dogs. That's much less complex matter than trying to prove working ability in a GSD tho' especially with the current ban on Schutzhund.

There are at least some pursuits that are indicators, if not proof of working ability.

The German Shepherd was, as I understand it, always a multi-purpose dog that herded, protected and was always amenable to command. Herding and Obedience at least test some skills. Placing a pup from your breeding with the police or military would be another. Any dog sport shows that a dog has some confidence, biddabilty and general soundness. Every GSD we've had start agility at our club in recent years(not that we see many) has had an issue with one of those and/or with dog aggression. My concerns about the direction the GSD is being taken didn't come out of thin air.

Lure coursing at least shows the instinct to chase is there.

The Gundog people have the most opportunities to test their dogs and ironically, probably the greatest divergence between show and working lines. I'd imagine many working retriever folk would be gobsmacked by what is supposed to pass for the 'hard working condition' breeds are meant to be shown in. Fat is not muscle but gee some exhibitors seem to think that. Group 3 doesn't have a monopoly on that either.

And as a recent convert to sighthounds, to see a podgy Whippet get up really makes me shake my head. :D

Edited January 2, 2010 by poodlefan

[Diablo]

'poodlefan' date='2nd Jan 2010 - 05:52 PM' post='4227781']

The German Shepherd was, as I understand it, always a multi-purpose dog that herded, protected and was always amenable to command. Herding and Obedience at least test some skills. Placing a pup from your breeding with the police or military would be another. Any dog sport shows that a dog has some confidence, biddabilty and general soundness. Every GSD we've had start agility at our club in recent years(not that we see many) has had an issue with one of those and/or with dog aggression. My concerns about the direction the GSD is being taken didn't come out of thin air.

That's "exactly" what we have noticed with GSD's at our Schutzhund club which from a breeders perspective is the result of poor initial training and socialisation which is not always the case. Some believe that their GSD displaying fear aggression are police K9 candidates and will do well at Schutzhund because of it. What happens is, when the defence drive is suppressed in the dog with training to enable the dog to be taken onto the field and not react towards other dogs and people present, also lost is any prey drive that the dog had along with the fear, lack of confidence becoming visable. The nerve strength of working line GSD's is vastly superior on average than the showlines.........not in all cases, we have good and bad in both lines but on an average of what you see.

Then we have the "nice dogs", happy and friendly seemingly confident and sound that shut down with physical challenges, scared of the jumps, slip off the A board and run away from it thrashing around in frenzy on the leash if the handler leads the dog towards it again etc etc. Most of the GSD's with obvious genetic faults are wonderful pets..........no question in regard to their companion ability or perception of protection fearing anything that doesn't belong, but are way from dogs of balanced temperament. Some owners are shocked when submitting their dog to the basic of working tasks having purchased a dog of supposed quality that is bred to type and standard. These faults don't often surface in a family pet and until worked, no one including the breeder is any the wiser what their dog's correctness is really like. The breed survey process doesn't always uncover these faults where a working test does immediately. A dog that fails breed survey temperament testing is a shocker, defininetly shouldn't be bred, but the one's that do doesn't necessarily confirm without a working test that the dog is of correct standard and an "assumption" is made from that result.

The working dog people experienced with GSD's often conclude that a herding test will pronounce the basic elements in the dog's genetic makup where only dogs of sound character, temperament and courage have the ability to herd which makes sense???. A fearful dog lacking nerve and confidence I don't imagine could herd either???.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Diablo

[WreckitWhippet]

My Whippet can easily run down, kill and bring me back a rabbit. Hares are few and far between, so we haven't actualy had a go on one yet. The poor mans racing dog would probably chase a lure too, but I've not tried her.

The Staffords will still finish any argument started by another dog, however I do not encourage mine to show any aggression at all, I do not breed for it, I think it's no longer acceptable in modern times.

My Pointer is a keen bird dog, he's not gun shy. I do not have the time or the money to travel for the training involved to FT. I have had an offer from a gentlemen who actively works his dogs in the field, to purchase him, he obviously saw some working ability there.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

The Gundog people have the most opportunities to test their dogs and ironically, probably the greatest divergence between show and working lines. I'd imagine many working retriever folk would be gobsmacked by what is supposed to pass for the 'hard working condition' breeds are meant to be shown in. Fat is not muscle but gee some exhibitors seem to think that. Group 3 doesn't have a monopoly on that either.

And as a recent convert to sighthounds, to see a podgy Whippet get up really makes me shake my head.

I've already whinged about fat in this thread but I don't think it's going to go away unfortunately. I still find it puzzling but it's easier to keep a dog fat than to keep it in hard working condition I suppose.

[WreckitWhippet]

The condition that some owners keep their dogs in, they are barely recognisable as the breed, let alone have the capacity to get off the lounge and do a job

[carlibud]

I would like to say it is very pleasing to see this thread on page 5 and no arguments or breed bashing

It really is good to see that so many people do work their dogs, as I've said before , and also, if like me they are their faithful, loving pets, then thats fine also

[Bjelkier]

There are plenty of show line Samoyeds being used for herding and sledding.

Both mine will be tried in herding when I get my hands on some reindeer

I would also love to try sledding one day too.

[mita]

The Gundog people have the most opportunities to test their dogs and ironically, probably the greatest divergence between show and working lines. I'd imagine many working retriever folk would be gobsmacked by what is supposed to pass for the 'hard working condition' breeds are meant to be shown in. Fat is not muscle but gee some exhibitors seem to think that. Group 3 doesn't have a monopoly on that either.

I've already whinged about fat in this thread but I don't think it's going to go away unfortunately. I still find it puzzling but it's easier to keep a dog fat than to keep it in hard working condition I suppose.

Friends just adopted an 18 mths old black Lab that got 1/2 way thro' the Guiide Dog Training Course, but was too persistently friendly with other dogs. First thing I noticed was how sleek & slim his body lines are, compared with the regular purebred pet labs I know. They have a distinct pudding look....he looks streamlined for action.

His new owners were given very strong counselling on continuing with a suitable diet for a Lab.

Here he is (left), just days in his new home:

Edited January 2, 2010 by mita

[Elfin]

It is not legal to hunt deer with dogs in most countries now, but in some places Deerhounds are still used to hunt game.

Here in Australia we strive to keep the drive to chase by lure coursing and lure racing our dogs.

[Elfin]

Here's an opportunity for the Wolfhound peoples....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8436670.stm

[Diva]

Here's an opportunity for the Wolfhound peoples....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8436670.stm

Don't think I could hunt wolves. Rabbit and hare at least are feral here, and a quick death in the jaws of a hound seems kinder than the diseases and poisons used on them. But I couldn't do wolves, not even when wolf hunting was a large part of why the modern Borzoi exists.

Bit of a contradiction I know, when I'm in support of functional tests, but the culling of a species now under as much pressure as the wolf is not something that appeals.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Diva

[mita]

Bit of a contradiction I know, when I'm in support of functional tests, but the culling of a species now under as much pressure as the wolf is not something that appeals.

Not so much a contradiction as a fair comment. I'd agree with you.

[centitout]

It is not legal to hunt deer with dogs in most countries now, but in some places Deerhounds are still used to hunt game.

Here in Australia we strive to keep the drive to chase by lure coursing and lure racing our dogs.

You can hunt deer in victoria with bloodhounds and beagles only-if they dont have papers they have to undergo an "assessment" and be passed as mainly bloodhound or beagle.

Bloodhounds were bred to hunt (not man trail) originally so i find it hard when people say they shouldnt be allowed to do what they are bred for?

And Baylord is right about the ES not being keen at all on bloodhounds,over the past there have been some that tried to use untrained dogs,with the expected results

My unit is keen to work with me this year,and the dogs training will encompass more PR work than anything at the moment + there is a private organisation i will be working the dogs for a little later down the track.Hopefully,if approached right,the hounds will be utilised for the superior cold trailers they are.

[sandgrubber]

Personally I think quite a few folk who think their 'show' line dogs can work are deluding themselves.

A beautiful but timid Dobermann, a GSD that hides behind its owners legs when strangers approach, a hard mouthed Retriever.. they're all out there.

There is an old wives tale that says the darker a Golden Retriever, the greater it's instinct for work. Makes you wonder where that breed is heading.

My view if the dog can work, show us

It's complicated, and the world changes. It's inspiring to see a kelpie or BC working sheep, or a huskie pulling a sled or cart. But what would you say about a Labbie who aces Guide Dog training and ends out with a full-time job . . . but has a hard mouth, no interest in birds, and doesn't like water? or becomes a sniffer dog, or a truffle hunting dog? or simply acts as the welcoming committee for a boutique winery? Or a bluey who isn't all that good with livestock, but makes a wonderful guard dog? As for the breeds whose work was fighting or bear baiting, or some other awful blood sport, so glad most of them no longer do the work they're bred for. Or hunting runaway slaves (Filho brasilieoro). What of the dogs who were originally cart dogs or spit dogs . . . and the RSPCA saw their work banned in the 19th or early 20th century . .. . I think many would be happy if something like their work was brought back as dog sport.

Many dogs like to have a job to do and most people like to see a dog doing a job. As the landscape changes, the function of dogs changes. Much as I admire old-fashioned working dogs, I don't think we need to direct all breeding to creating museum replicas of 19th century working dogs: Especially given that most puppy buyers just want a healthy companion with some-sort-of personality and a certain look. Great if some breeders want to concentrate on the work described in the breed standard . . . but no need to condemn those who take another path. And I think we need to work harder to develop new jobs for dogs to do as their historical functions become obsolete.

I am in favour of temperament testing . . . ring presence is not a great sorter for temperament. But I think there's room for tests that go broader than testing for the breed's historical function.

[centitout]

My dogs temperaments are tested not by some behaviourist ticking off boxes in an artificial setting,but by being out in the public,in different situations. If i was not entirely confident with the temp of that dog,would i expose them and me to potentially harmful situations?

Enforced temp tests are not something i am willing to do to see if they are suitable to be bred-i see it when i walk my dog from the country into the main channel nine building in the middle of sydney without missing a beat,or going to school demos or walking through thousands of people at a field day with every second person wanting a pat .That is my measure of temperament.