How Many Breeds?

[carlibud]

Ok all very interesting .

Glad its not just the Gsd that gets the short end of the stick LOL

Maybe we are a nation of people that just like to bring down the tall poppies LOL : Hides head :

So its looking that, the breeds as they come to Australia are losing all the different courses or trials or tests , so is that because we are not used to these things in Aust or what. There seems to be the trend though dosnt it. Or is it our climate as Showdog said ??

MMM very interesting thanks for all these responses.

Lovely to see that people do use their breeds for what they love to do..

[Pointees]

For some breeds, I suppose it would be down to climate. Those dogs with LONG and THICK coats wouldn't do to well in the heat, some Border collies as it is aren't too good, sae with my two pointer girls. With that said, my two girls, although they are gundogs for crying out load, don't like wet grass, but will happily go swimming in a dirty creek or the beach.

It would also come down to what the owners are willing to do with the dog when its a pup and at that learning age.

For example, my malt cross is now 3 years old, he was the only dog until he was a year old... He grew up with our rabbits running around the backyard and due to this he would sit outside with them and eat the grass.

Our first cat grew up with the rabbits when she was a kitten, and sits there with them at the age of 5 years old and eats the grass. Stupid cat.

If I was a breeder, I would want to ensure all the dogs/bitches I have have the abilities to do what they are meant to do, and I wouldn't use a stud dog if it didn't know.

I'm sure a lot of the people responding on this are breeders, so here is a question. As breeders, your meant to be going to the breed standard, yes? Not just in conformation, but everything about the dog. So basically, preserving the natural abilities of the breed (hunting, herding, being a couch potatoe, etc) should be looked into for the bloodline, and not just if it comes from a well developed bloodline, or a well known breeder?

[Guest bigdogg]

I think many dogs can still do the job they were originally bred for - but saying that.. I think it would only be the slightest of of percentages of these dogs that can do the job day in day out and be extremely good at what they do.

Eg.. old mates town dog which is a border collie.. rounds up a few ducks and maybe some sheep.. This same dog may not have the makings of a quality stock working dog..

I think if your looking for a working dog you should buy pups from working parents.

[Dogsfevr]

So the WL dogs that you say are in a plenty that have good coats, that isnt in Australia or is it??

I do believe many of the show dogs would excel in the fiel dbut the reality is you either wish to pursue that option or not.

I personally would love to do field work with my ES but there isnt enough trials held here to warrant the dedication required to train the dog .

What i like about the US for example is the number of field trial option out there which means you can pursue that field whilst waiting for coat to grow.

many will wear body suits if maintaining coat is a must but a good coat will last.

My boy shows keen bird sense & his passion is birding & he has taught my young gordon to work birds with the same finesse & he is backing up the ES.

Unfortunately in my home state some of field people have issues with "showdogs"turning up & working which tends to put you off or make it difficult to get accepted or help within the ranks & when you need skilful people to teach it can be hard.

The reality is our bird season is Oz isnt super so you really need to be a die hard to work your setters & truth be told im not a fan of killing birds just for pleasure

Edited January 1, 2010 by showdog

[lappiemum]

Lappies still herd reindeer in Finland They also have fun herding in Australia.

[carlibud]

Yes I get were your coming from SD.

As said a lot depends on if thats what you want from a puppy and are willing to work that way with it.

I had a GSD girl that was WL,'s and she was so over the top that it was unbelievable. She never stopped, ever. I just could never keep up to how much she needed, never again would I get working lines in any Gsd's that I got, but that is my descion, and what I want from my dogs. I know some people thatb would only have them that way but they are not for everyone, I like my dogs to have quiet time at some time in the week LOL

But the 2 I have now are the most loyal, protective, friendly, gentle girls I could ever ask for, but work as they were originally bred for, I dont think so, but then I'm not into that type of work, so I dont know.

ETA Love the piccy SD

Edited January 1, 2010 by carlibud

[Jed]

BisartDobes

Dobes are the only breed developed as a guard dog

Ahem, don't forget the boxer, a companion guard dog. Used much more as a guard overseas than here. Here we tend to emphasize the "companion" bit, and forget that we have a very handy guard lying upside down on the couch snoring with his tongue lolling.

And mine are doing just fine at both. They are happy to show you companionship during the day if you come nicely to the front gate. If you want to see guard, please come to the back fence at night.

And yes, I believe they do fulfill their original function. People are not at all frightened of them, when they are in happy mode, but I've noticed that when the "guard" bit is on show, people show them a great deal of respect - as they deserve.

My teenager lay under a tree for a couple of hours, watching 3 workmen and 3 men from the government wandering around - with my permission. She didn't say a word. But she kept her eye on them.

So, they assumed they could come in the gate, and knock on the door. That was fine with me, but she had other ideas, and so did they, once she put her front feet up on the gate, eyeballed them, and drove them back with very serious barks. One remarked how friendly he had thought she was. She was friendly because I was inside the gate, talking to them in a friendly way. Once I went away, she was on guard. Once I went out, and invited them in, and was friendly, she went back to "companion" mode.

Most of mine have only been asked to do as this girl did. A couple have been asked to step up to the plate - and they did it as if they had been doing it every single day of their lives.

No matter where I've been, or what I've been doing, I've always felt confident about the dogs' ability to do whatever is necessary.

One of my cockers indicates that she would work all day. She has drive, and bird sense. The other - well - something went wrong there. She's a sweet heart, but gun dog?? Oh dear. I guess we can't all be stars.

[Pointees]

Heres what you see daily at my house.

[fifi]

Although I don't activley hunt my wolfhounds, if we go for walks in the paddock they have brought down hares, rabbits, feral cats and the odd wallaby ( sadly brought down before I was even aware of their presence)

The hounds show a keen interest in anything that moves and change from couch potatoes to awe inspiring creatures of grace and ground covering speed when chasing. I would be very disappointed if my hounds did NOT show that interest, of course some show it more than others, and its usually the girls who are very switched on.

I have no doubt that if they were raised & trained to the fitness and surefootedness required, and taken into a hunting situation on a game suited to their size & application - they would be very successful in the field.

fifi

[Dogsfevr]

My first Irish Setter was pure show lines But in brain pure working lines,She was a gorgeous girl BUT hell to live with,her waiting to work all day proved to be an issue in the summer.

I think whilst many breeds have there original purpose there is no shame in them becoming more adaptable to family living.The above irish would not have been suitable for a normal family.

My GSD was full german lines .Dark faced & that was enough to scare the bejesus out of people BUT he had excellent working ability.A friend was handler in the german army & he commented on how lucky i was to have a GSD that didnt rush the fence/people but worked quietly & silently herding any stranger into a corner without anyone truly realising.

Edited January 1, 2010 by showdog

[fifi]

My GSD was full german lines .Dark faced & that was enough to scare the bejesus out of people BUT he had excellent working ability.A friend was handler in the german army & he commented on how lucky i was to have a GSD that didnt rush the fence/people but worked quietly & silently herding any stranger into a corner without anyone truly realising.

Oh yes, I met two like this years ago when I had to deliver something to people I knew only slightly !

I ended up quietly herded onto their front verandah by two very capable and menacing GSD's - and was prevented from making my way back out the gate by them sitting on the bottom step and growling with real intent each time I tried to walk down the steps !!!

Stuck there for a VERY long time until the owners returned !!!!!!!

Two VERY good guard dogs !!!!

fifi

[shantiah]

I have Greyhounds and Italian Greyhounds.

I have in the past taken the IGs both lure coursing and circle racing. And they still enjoy chasing rabbits in the paddock.

The greyhounds there is a huge difference between the look of SL and WL.

My first two are both WL and also show. They are dual registered GRA and ANKC. There is plenty of disapproval amongst show people who say WL should not be in the show ring, funnily the race people do not think show dogs shouldnt run. Skadi is the only race bred greyhound to gain her Gr Ch title. At 4yrs old she has just had her first race start. It has involved stripping the weight off her and building a whole lot of muscle and increasing fitness which many judges seem unable to cope with. While I would love to do both show and race at the same time, reality has shown that it is unfortunatly very difficult, although IMO there is nothing more beautiful than a fit and muscled up grey in race condition.

My latest addition is a SL grey who is being raised the same was as the WL dogs. She has every bit as much instinct to chase, proven recently when she put herself into a fence chasing rabbits. Once she is older she will run at the trial track as GRA rules mean she is not eligible to enter races.

[OSoSwift]

My Whippets would very happily chase rabbits and possibly foxes.

They don't hunt live rabbits purely because I am not really into it.

I wouldn't like to be put in the position of having to put a rabbit out of its misery if the dogs didn't finish it off.

I also worry about broken legs if they went down a rabbit warren.

Just about everyone I speak to asks me what they are like hunting. I tell them they would have to get off the lounge for that.

[Gayle.]

Thats great Gaylek that Dusty is so keen. But just proves something I guess that there is a boy like Benson that has such lines for it but isnt keen at all, but it certainly dosnt take away from him does it .

You have to keep in mind though, that not every dog bred for work will actually have the ability to work. Even the working farm dogs....kelpies, border collies, ACD's, where the whole ancestry is working, will produce dogs that don't have the ability, aptitude or desire to work stock.

It doesn't make them a bad dog, is doesn't make them a poor representative of the breed and they might very well produce fabulous workers themselves, it just means the genes are "wired" differently in that particular dog.

Benson's woosiness with sheep just makes Benson that bit more charming. He's a funny boy, he has the best temperament of any dog I have ever met, and when he hides behind my legs around the sheep he just cracks me up.

Edited January 1, 2010 by GayleK

[SpikesPuppy]

With my chosen breed (Border Terrier), I am in two minds about their working ability- one one hand, I would love to see the dogs still working as they originally did (mainly running with the horses, following the hounds then bolting the fox from the hole- only defending itself if need be, never attacking the fox), but then I think, do I want to expose my pets to such a dangerous situation?? So we have Earthdog trials (not that I've done many of these... yet haha), which are a generic test of any 'earth dog' breed (many small terriers, and Dachsunds), whether they were bred to hunt fox, rabbit, badger, otter etc. The 'sport' is also trainable in a dog that lacks instinct or is afraid to go to earth. And in the case of my breed, does nothing to prove or even indicate the dog's ability to get along with other dogs (a snappy Border would be shot) or the dog's ability to keep up with a horse/cover long distances. But the latter can be indicated by participating in an Endurance trial...

So I guess I have to ask myself, given the opportunity- would I actually work my Terriers??? I'd like to say yes for the sake of ensuring working ability but my heart says no- it's not worth the risk to their safety. However when looking at breeding my dogs (and if I were purchasing a new puppy), I try to keep 'working ability' at the forefront of my mind- is the dog BUILT CORRECTLY?? Incorrect angulation will likely lead to poor/exhausting movement and lack of endurance, tight pelt will cause the dog to become stuck in a narrow fox hole where it will have to be dug out or left to die, small ears wont protect from loose earth or water, large ears are at risk of tearing, long or weak loin will (likely) reduce endurance, too large a ribcage and the dog will get stuck, too narrow and the dog wont have enough lung capacity for a full day's work, small nostirls will clog with dirt and so on and so forth. I feel that personally, ensuring a dog who is built to work and has the correct temperament/spirit required for it's original job is the best that I can do short of actually working the animals myself.

As for the dogs working overseas- I understand they have generally fallen out of favor for fox hunting (although there are exceptions), however many are used for hunting small animals in the USA and a number are used for things such as tracking wounded Elk in Europe (blood tracking).

On another note- I am convinced that if I knew how to do it, I could train Caber to herd (even if it were just ducks), he has the ability to learn almost anything I ask and understands direction etc. Although the breed has been used as a 'farm dog' in the past, they have not really been required to herd or do much at all with stock.

I hope that mum will do some herding in the near future with her smoothie, though I wouldn't want to put her on cattle as they are a bit scary (according to many sources, the smooth coated scotch collie (aka Collie Smooth) was more of a cattle drover/guardian than sheepdog like it's rough-coated cousin. To me, she is built correctly, not only does she fit the written standard but in my mind, she looks like a balanced animal who could carry out a day's work without an issue. She also has that classically elegant look about her whilst still appearing strong.

[carlibud]

Show dog I think you said it all, there is no shame in the fact that some breeds have adapted to being the family pet Well not all breeds of course but dogs in some breeds.

I agree wholeheartedly Gaylek, that just because they come from working lines definitely dosnt mean they will have that instinct.

GSD's are protectors, Brydee has the most ferocious bark, When she hears a noise, she goes off and if she dosnt know the voice she keeps it up , but if I tell her its only me there isnt another sound. Thats what I want from her. I dont want to have to wonder if she might bite someone because she feels its her duty. I like to know that if someone came to the gate she isnt going to lunge at the fence, but bark all she wants thats fine,

Me personally I wouldnt walk into a yard where a GSD is barking at me constantly , even if their tail is wagging

it really is good to see so many dogs that are doing what they were bred for,

[Dogsfevr]

*******

Edited January 1, 2010 by showdog

[dancinbcs]

I think many dogs can still do the job they were originally bred for - but saying that.. I think it would only be the slightest of of percentages of these dogs that can do the job day in day out and be extremely good at what they do.

Eg.. old mates town dog which is a border collie.. rounds up a few ducks and maybe some sheep.. This same dog may not have the makings of a quality stock working dog..

I think if your looking for a working dog you should buy pups from working parents.

There are plenty of show bred Border Collies who can and do work. Some dogs do both, and sometimes there are working and show dogs from the same litter. I took my first BC to a sheepdog training day where the trainer looked down her nose at the "bench dog" who was later to be a BISS winner . By the end of the day my "bench dog" had out worked all but one of the 20 or so working bred BCs and Kelpies, there on the day and I as the handler knew nothing about sheep. The trainer commented he was one of the best all round working dogs she had seen in BCs and would be an asset to any sheep station. My first show bitch came from a country kennel that successfully showed their BCs and Kelpies but sold most of their puppies as working dogs, not pets. The majority of show lines are not sold to purely working homes anymore because the dogs are usually not treated as well as they are in show, performance or pet homes. I never want to see one of my precious babies living tied up to a 44 gallon drum kennel and never groomed.

With any herding breeds some dogs will be better than others. Some dogs from working parents have no interest in working just as some of the show dogs won't work. For the specialised area of three sheep trialing then your odds are better with a puppy from successful trialing parents but there is still no guarantee. Three sheep trialing is very different to day to day farm work and some trial dogs are not much use on a farm.

Some lines in the herding breeds have lost a lot of their instinct but there are many Borders, Cattle Dogs. Stumpies, Kelpies and Aussies from show lines that can and do still work.

[Kavik]

Having a GSD and Kelpie (and crosses) I agree that GSD cop more than their fair share of politics, especially in the show/working debate. Almost enough to put one off if you are not a serious fan of them! Kelpies are one of the breeds whose original job continues to exist and so there are many herding sheep on farms and stations. I do see a difference in appearance between the show and working line dogs. What I found most interesting though is that when I took my working line Kelpie to a show as a pup to visit a friend and socialise that some showies didn't know what breed he was

[Boronia]

My two Westies, Penny and Mac, spend a great deal of time looking for otters under the mulch and around the banana palms, no luck yet in finding any though!