Problems With Tail

[grantwit]

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Edited February 11, 2012 by grantwit

[ellz]

I may be getting hold of the wrong end of the stick, but I don't see how the breeder can, or should, be held responsible for something that is apparently (as diagnosed by your vet) accidental?

Have you discussed any of this with the breeder at all or are they just expected to know that you are having difficulties?

[grantwit]

No im waiting till i have all the information before discussing it with the breeder. The reason i have asked breeder liability, is that years back i read how if you purchase a dog from a breeder and that dog was later found to have medical issues, then the breeder was liable for vet fees up to the purchase price of the dog. However i dont know what jurisdiction this was in and it was a fair few years ago. And whether or not it was an accident, if confirmed it is what the vet thinks it is, the dog was sold to me with problems. I brought this dog as pedigree, and with this issue there is no way that she can be shown. There are some cases that have come before tribunals where the breeder has been found liable for their 'off spring', however no case where the problem was similar to this.

As i stated in my original post. This dog is my baby, and will be no matter what the problems are. Im just after suggestions and advice.

[ellz]

What you've read is not necessarily correct. Under Fair Trading laws, anything which is not suitable for the purpose for which it was purchased should be returned to the seller for a refund. In your case, unless you purchased the dog as a show dog, then technically, a problem with its tail, unless it is proven to be an untreatable neurological disorder, will probably not affect its ability as a pet. Even if the breeder did offer you your money back, you'd still need to return the puppy to them. If you chose to keep the puppy, then technically, the obligation of the breeder is at an end.

As for the mites, I presume you are talking about Demodex? If so, EVERY dog has them and they are a fact of life. It is only when the immune system is compromised that they tend to flare up. And that can be caused by many things, stress, incorrect diet etc so it is not fair to blame the breeder for them.

You should contact the breeder NOW and discuss the situation with them because they would no doubt like to be kept informed as to every detail and not just those you care to share after a vet has made their diagnosis. The breeder should also be given the opportunity to have the puppy examined by a vet of their own choice.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i think you should call the breeder and inform them of the issues

[moosmum]

I don't know much about the law, but from a laymans view point only,this is how I see it.

A lot will depend on how much you paid for the pup.

If you are expecting a lot of guarantees expect your pup to cost a lot more.Those costs incurred by the breeder will be passed on.

With even the best of dogs health wise,no one can guarantee every pup will be free of any health or other issues.

Such a breeder MAY offer to replace the pup,for one that better suits your needs if it can be assumed the damage did not occur while in your care.

But also :

Did you explain to the breeder you were after a pup for show?

Did you take their advise on what pup to would best suit your goals?

Did you ask about any health or soundness issues?

Did you ask what ,if any guarantees were given?

Its your dealings with the breeder and any verbal or written contract that should be questioned before liability can be shown.

but thats just how I see it.

[Dogsfevr]

Have you phoned the breeder about the mites & the probs you had ??

Since i got her she has never wagged her tail. Initially i put it down to her breed.

What do you mean by this??

You also have a part to play ,if reading correctly you havent phoned the breeder about any issues yet aired them on a forum??

The breeder hasnt been given a chance to work with you yet your talking about liability .

I brought this dog as pedigree, and with this issue there is no way that she can be shown.

But your getting her desexed at which time the X rays are being done??

Wouldnt one get x rays first & then consider desexing if you where planning to show??

[ellz]

I don't know much about the law, but from a laymans view point only,this is how I see it.

A lot will depend on how much you paid for the pup. WRONG - price has absolutely nothing to do with it. It wouldn't matter whether somebody paid $1 or $1000, the Fair Trading Laws are the same.

If you are expecting a lot of guarantees expect your pup to cost a lot more.Those costs incurred by the breeder will be passed on. WRONG - reputable breeders will do this anyway.

With even the best of dogs health wise,no one can guarantee every pup will be free of any health or other issues. CORRECT

Such a breeder MAY offer to replace the pup,for one that better suits your needs if it can be assumed the damage did not occur while in your care. WRONG - a breeder doesn't HAVE to offer a replacement pup, under some circumstances they may offer to pay vet bills but they will not be automatically expected to do so no matter WHEN the "damage" occurred. A lot will depend upon when the purchaser first noticed AND NOTED the issue and in this case, I'd be wondering why it took them so long to mention it to the vet if the puppy has been seen so many times for other issues. If a breeder does offer a replacement and the purchaser chooses to keep the puppy that they have, that is generally the end of the story. Also, most reputable and responsible breeders request that a purchaser take their puppy to a vet within a prescribed period of time. Any issues such as the tail could reasonably be expected to be picked up on at that examination.

[ellz]

BTW, Fair Trading treats animals as GOODS so all laws pertaining to sales of GOODS are relevant.

I'm also speaking from experience.

I sold a puppy to some people in another State as a show prospect. Within weeks of her arriving, she broke her toe. She recovered, they showed her. She didn't do well in the ring, apparently partly due to a slight limp and they then turned around and said she also had a bad bite. I offered a replacement from my next available litter. They wanted to keep her. Fair Trading said I had no further obligation.

And as an aside, apparently the bite wasn't that bad because they bred from her on a number of occasions as well and are breeding on with her children. And incidentally neither of her sisters had bite issues and none of the offspring that came from the bitch I retained had bite issues either.

But lesson learned and now get EVERYTHING in writing, even if people think it pedantic.

[grantwit]

Thanks for all the replies re the breeder. The only reason i have said im waiting to talk to the breeder is to see the results of the xray, whether it shows an injury and if it does whether it can then provide with with proof of the age of the injury etc. And i have made the decision to desex her (i was toying with the idea of showing her, but the problem with the tail has made my decision for me. I didnt buy her purely for the reason of showing, so as someone has mentioned on here that can affect any liability). You have all certainly provided me with some info to consider.

But has anyone come across problems like this before though? Could something like this be genetic (shes one of the first litter from her dam)? I really want to achieve the best outcome for her (i dont just want to 'give up' without thoroughly exploring options and treatments etc)

[ellz]

Thanks for all the replies re the breeder. The only reason i have said im waiting to talk to the breeder is to see the results of the xray, whether it shows an injury and if it does whether it can then provide with with proof of the age of the injury etc. And i have made the decision to desex her (i was toying with the idea of showing her, but the problem with the tail has made my decision for me. I didnt buy her purely for the reason of showing, so as someone has mentioned on here that can affect any liability). You have all certainly provided me with some info to consider.

But has anyone come across problems like this before though? Could something like this be genetic (shes one of the first litter from her dam)? I really want to achieve the best outcome for her (i dont just want to 'give up' without thoroughly exploring options and treatments etc)

If you purchased her from a reputable breeder who hip scores etc, then I'd imagine that any issues with tails would have shown up in the parents or the littermates. Another reason you need to discuss this with the breeder BEFORE taking any further action.

As a breeder myself, I would be simply horrified, probably angry and incredibly upset that you were battling this without at least letting me know so that I could offer suggestions, support and as I said previously, probably arrange to have my own vet examine the puppy to get at the least a second opinion BEFORE any decisions are made.

[grantwit]

Ok, i will email breeder tonight.

[Dogsfevr]

You need to inform the breeder now not what a few more weeks & the spring them with the info,remember the dog world reads forums it is easy to figure out things .

If the x rays show up issues when desexed are you going to amputate then or look at different paths??

When will you make the decision on what to do.

Personally i would be x raying now & then looking at what the issue is.

She could simply need to visit a dog Chiro

[ellz]

Ok, i will email breeder tonight.

Try not to sound combative or accusatory. Remember that the whole thing may take them by surprise and put them on the back foot so their initial response may not be what you are expecting. Give them a chance to process the information and work out a plan of action and if they ARE a reputable and responsible breeder, they won't just sweep it under the carpet.

How they accept what you tell them will give you some very important information about their knowledge as a breeder and whether or not you should expect any kind of long-term or reasonable support and assistance from them.

Good luck.

[grantwit]

Ok ive emailed the breeder now and included a couple of photos. Ive asked him for his thoughts on any alternate therapies etc and whether he has had this occur before.

Showdog - I would only amputate part of the tail as a very last resort (and only if it was in her very best interests). It seems a very extreme course of action. I would prefer to explore other options first, like chiro as you suggested. If there was any chance, no matter how small, of some kind of therapy assisting her in regaining some use or muscle in the tail i would take that course of action first.

[poodlefan]

Personally I think if the breeder sold you a pup with a broken tail, you should be entitled to some financial compensation for treating an issue that should have been plainly evident at the time the pup was sold to you.

[ellz]

It goes both ways Poodlefan. One would assume the breeder SHOULD have noticed. But then one would also think the purchaser should have noticed as well. And as I said, had a post-purchase vet examination been done, the matter should probably have become evident within days of purchase rather than weeks of purchase.

There is absolutely NOTHING to say that the breeder DID sell a puppy with a broken tail. Unfortunately after this much time, unless something diagnostic shows up, it is still a matter of he said, she said and will still come under Fair Trading Laws.

I'll be interested to hear what the breeder has to say. If you don't want to put it on here, you're more than welcome to PM me.

[poodlefan]

It goes both ways Poodlefan. One would assume the breeder SHOULD have noticed. But then one would also think the purchaser should have noticed as well. And as I said, had a post-purchase vet examination been done, the matter should probably have become evident within days of purchase rather than weeks of purchase.

I'd have thought a breeder might be more inclined to know when something's not right.

The x-rays should put the matter beyond doubt as to when it occurred.

[ellz]

Maybe there was nothing visible at the time? Maybe the puppy wasn't an outgoing one in the nest with lots of wagging tail action? It happens. But it still comes back to the fact that if the purchaser noticed something was amiss way back when, they perhaps should have acted sooner? I assume (yes dangerous thing) that the puppy would have left home at 8 weeks. It is 20 weeks now. That's a long time for somebody to decide that there is a problem, particularly if the puppy has been treated regularly by a vet for another issue. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume (or hope) that the tail issue could have been mentioned a lot sooner than now.

Editing to add: Anyway, I have made my contribution. I don't think I have much more to add. I'll be interested to hear the outcome, both in terms of the breeder AND the long term prognosis for the puppy as well.

Edited December 29, 2009 by ellz

[grantwit]

Post purchase examination was done on my girl (day after bringing her home) and nothing was noticed. So whether this is a reflection on the vet or whether this issue has just become more apparent as she has grown (and therefore the tail has grown!), who knows. Im more inclined to think the later, given that the breeder and several vets (at the one practice) didnt notice it, and whilst i noticed it i brushed it off as just a quirk of the breed (GSD not being overly affectionate dogs)

Great news in that the breeder has already called me. Given me the name and phone number of a vet that specialises in GSD's. I was worrying over nothing with how the breeder would take it. Was nothing but helpful and interested in the problem. Has never heard of this happening before (mum injuring pup tail through stepping). He has suggested could be a problem with a disc, so going to explore that possibility. The vet he has suggested is also familiar with her blood lines, so if there is any issue back through the lines, she will be able to figure that out. So fingers crossed!