5 Month Kelpie With Fear Agression And Love Of Barking

[Czara]

I believe that Kelpies are very sensitive dogs and don't always respond to negative reinforcement. I could be wrong. That is why seeing an expert is so important.

Dogs, like children, are spoilt rotten these days, and we are not being "kind" or doing either of them any good service by letting them run a muck out of control! Fashions have changed, from repressive to permissive, with failure both ways - from one extreme to the other.

The middle way still works best: kind but firm

True "experts" can be judged by the pudding, not just by how loudly they vocalise, nor how many hours they spend cultivating vitual friends online

[megan_]

I don't know you from a bar of soap and you don't know me. I don't know who your comment re: true experts is aimed at - I have never claimed to be one and sure as hell haven't cultivated many friendships on DOL.

Different dogs need different strategies to cope - any good behaviourist will tell you that.

Anyone who gives advice on an internet forum wrt an aggressive dog that says "this worked for me so it should work for your dog" isn't an expert and is giving some pretty dangerous advice IMO.

I never implied that the dog should be allowed to continue out of control (far from it if you've actually read my posts!) but I did say that your advice which worked for your GSD (a breed known for their strength of character and needing a firm hand) might not work for another breed (eg a kelpie, a breed which is known for being very sensitive to an owner's emotions).

Other strategies (eg refocusing or getting them to play the "Look at that" game) might be much more effective.

[Shmurps]

There are many different types of methods. These have varied results. I tried a couple and found one that worked for us.

I visited many obedience clubs , had 2 behavourists come to the house and one trainer.

The best result was having the trainer come with her dogs to work with my dog. And every day I work with her on our walks using Turids methods.

[Shmurps]

I don't know you from a bar of soap and you don't know me. I don't know who your comment re: true experts is aimed at - I have never claimed to be one and sure as hell haven't cultivated many friendships on DOL.

Different dogs need different strategies to cope - any good behaviourist will tell you that.

Anyone who gives advice on an internet forum wrt an aggressive dog that says "this worked for me so it should work for your dog" isn't an expert and is giving some pretty dangerous advice IMO.

I never implied that the dog should be allowed to continue out of control (far from it if you've actually read my posts!) but I did say that your advice which worked for your GSD (a breed known for their strength of character and needing a firm hand) might not work for another breed (eg a kelpie, a breed which is known for being very sensitive to an owner's emotions).

Other strategies (eg refocusing or getting them to play the "Look at that" game) might be much more effective.

Exactly.

[poodlefan]

She's come from the pound, and has spent a large chunk of her life in a cage (both at the pound and the vet as she's a parvo-survivor) so I doubt she's had much (if any) socialisation with dogs.

Any suggestions much appreciated!!!

I would suggest keep her under control (ie on-lead) while you go out of your way to introduce her/socialise her with other dogs. Correct any antisocial behaviour firmly, and lots of praise/reward for being good. Small steps with lots of patience and time. It worked wonderfully with my (rescue) dog - she was 11 months and not well socialised when I got her, but 4 months later is happy, well-adjusted and with many doggy mates that she could (eventually) happily romp off-lead with.

Despite all the various fashions of the day, it's very simple really: positive and negative reinforcement to shape bahaviour

How exactly does a person go about this with an aggressive dog and with the other dogs as unknown quantities. Why deliberately place a dog into situations where you KNOW its going to respond aggressively? Chances are you'll lower the trigger to aggressing, not raise it. You don't manage any unwanted behaviour by deliberately engineering situations for the dog to aggress. There is no "socialising" here.. just triggers to more unwanted behaviour. The critical period for this dog to bond with other canines has come and gone.

Furthermore, other peoples dogs should not be used as guinea pigs for an aggressive dog's owner to experiment on. That applies to training classes as much as casual encounters. People go to them to teach their dogs skills, not to assist others with managing dogs with issues.

This person needs someone who can analyse what's going on and help her manage and desensitise the dog. Yes, it's all about positive and negative reinforcement but unless you know what you're doing and work with dogs in controlled situations, you're inviting disaster. Sometimes all that's achieved is a dog conditioned by negative reinforcement not to show warning signs of aggression and that goes straight into fight mode.

Edited December 30, 2009 by poodlefan

[peibe]

And sometimes after all that the dog is too badly damaged to ever be socialised with other dogs

I know I have one

Not all problems are fixable even with the best of intentions

[poodlefan]

Personally SPR, I don't think aggression can be "fixed"

I think its possible to lower triggers and reactivity, but it always there.

[Kavik]

On this forum there was another kelpie owner who used to say that busy dog parks aren't always the best place for kelpies and this is certainly true for my kelpie X Tilly.

That was probably me! My Kelpie X who I got from the pound as a pup is dog aggressive, and one thing I have learned from this experience is that not all dogs enjoy dog parks. From my experience, working in a dog daycare and watching interactions there, and talking to lots of other Kelpie owners, I don't think Kelpies in general are good busy dog park candidates, as they tend to like their space around other dogs.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Kavik

[Kavik]

Personally SPR, I don't think aggression can be "fixed"

I think its possible to lower triggers and reactivity, but it always there.

Completely agree

[Jumabaar]

Personally SPR, I don't think aggression can be "fixed"

I think its possible to lower triggers and reactivity, but it always there.

Completely agree

All I wanted to add was that this has not actually been diagnosed as being fear agression. The OP needs to see someone who can look at the dog and Identify what the problem actually is- fear agression or frustration which I have also seen look like agression in Kelpies.

[persephone]

All I wanted to add was that this has not actually been diagnosed as being fear agression. The OP needs to see someone who can look at the dog and Identify what the problem actually is- .

my bold

Edited December 30, 2009 by persephone

[Kavik]

Even if it is not fear aggression, from the OP the dog is not comfortable around groups of boisterous dogs and I would avoid going to busy dog parks as the behaviour could escalate.

[fainty_girl]

I don't know you from a bar of soap and you don't know me. I don't know who your comment re: true experts is aimed at - I have never claimed to be one and sure as hell haven't cultivated many friendships on DOL.

Different dogs need different strategies to cope - any good behaviourist will tell you that.

Anyone who gives advice on an internet forum wrt an aggressive dog that says "this worked for me so it should work for your dog" isn't an expert and is giving some pretty dangerous advice IMO.

I never implied that the dog should be allowed to continue out of control (far from it if you've actually read my posts!) but I did say that your advice which worked for your GSD (a breed known for their strength of character and needing a firm hand) might not work for another breed (eg a kelpie, a breed which is known for being very sensitive to an owner's emotions).

Other strategies (eg refocusing or getting them to play the "Look at that" game) might be much more effective.

I agree megan_ about kelpies being sensitive to their owners feelings.

I also find that with my kelpie X I have to try and be one step ahead of her when I take her out. Eg. She likes to chase skateboards sometimes, so if I know that there is somebody skateboarding in the distance or walking along with a skateboard (especially when she hasn't seen/heard them) it is much easier to get her to sit down and focus on me and redirect her attention if she looks at the skateboard, than it would have been if I wasn't paying attention and hadn't seen the skateboarder. It's not always possible to be one step ahead of Tilly because she obviously has better hearing than I do and she is an alert dog and a fast runner, but it definitely helps!

On this forum there was another kelpie owner who used to say that busy dog parks aren't always the best place for kelpies and this is certainly true for my kelpie X Tilly.

That was probably me! My Kelpie X who I got from the pound as a pup is dog aggressive, and one thing I have learned from this experience is that not all dogs enjoy dog parks. From my experience, working in a dog daycare and watching interactions there, and talking to lots of other Kelpie owners, I don't think Kelpies in general are good busy dog park candidates, as they tend to like their space around other dogs.

Yes i'm pretty sure that it was you Kavik, thanks .

Tilly does like other dogs to give her space and isn't keen on boisterous or anxious dogs who try to get in her face. She does like her space but then she also likes to round up dogs (especially when they are playing fetch) as well. She does enjoy busy dog parks, but it is way too exciting for her which results in her not listening and being quite difficult so I refuse to take her to busy parks. Quiet parks definitely suit her way more, then only downside is for me because it is a longer drive .

Edited December 31, 2009 by fainty_girl

[Greytmate]

The first port of call for a dog with issues that comes from a rescue or breeder is to contact them first

I hope HAR are able to put you in touch with the trainer they know

If not send me a PM and I can give you a number to call

This advice is correct.

The OP only just bought this dog, and if she is having problems, she needs to talk to the people she bought it from. If they are not given the opportunity to fix things it is not fair to be complaining about one of their dogs on the internet.

This dog has been in foster care, was it mentioned when the dog was bought that you needed it to be able to mix with other dogs? Were you told it didn't like other dogs? What information was provided about him?

If you do decide to stick with this dog, HAR should help with the work you need to do. If the dog didn't have the aggression problems while it was in foster care, it may be that it would be better suited in a different home to yours.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Greytmate

[peibe]

Personally SPR, I don't think aggression can be "fixed"

I think its possible to lower triggers and reactivity, but it always there.

Completly agree and did not say aggression can be fixed, not sure what I said that made you think otherwise

Aggression is more prominant in some breeds than others and some lines within those breeds are worse than others

[poodlefan]

Personally SPR, I don't think aggression can be "fixed"

I think its possible to lower triggers and reactivity, but it always there.

Completly agree and did not say aggression can be fixed, not sure what I said that made you think otherwise

Aggression is more prominant in some breeds than others and some lines within those breeds are worse than others

I was agreeing with you SPR!!

[je33ie]

The first port of call for a dog with issues that comes from a rescue or breeder is to contact them first

I hope HAR are able to put you in touch with the trainer they know

If not send me a PM and I can give you a number to call

This advice is correct.

The OP only just bought this dog, and if she is having problems, she needs to talk to the people she bought it from. If they are not given the opportunity to fix things it is not fair to be complaining about one of their dogs on the internet.

This dog has been in foster care, was it mentioned when the dog was bought that you needed it to be able to mix with other dogs? Were you told it didn't like other dogs? What information was provided about him?

If you do decide to stick with this dog, HAR should help with the work you need to do. If the dog didn't have the aggression problems while it was in foster care, it may be that it would be better suited in a different home to yours.

Just to clarify, I am the foster carer, not the forever home, so she's come to my house straight from the pound. I think our house is the first time she has ever been inside a house, as she had never seen a mirror, a glass door or a tv before - so I doubt she's had any formal training or socialisation in her life.

HAR have been wonderfully supportive, and I'm currently liaising with them about what options we have for the kelpie in question.

In the meantime, I've been trying out the focussing exercises and they're coming along well. If she goes to bark at the front door when a person/dog is walking past, I get her attention on me and we play a game. I also took her for a walk this morning and got her to sit for a treat every now and then so she was focussed on me (although she did bark quite wildly at a dog we passed!).

We'll see if HAR can give me access to a behaviourist and hopefully I (and her new forever home) can train her into becoming a well-adjusted dog.

Thanks for all your help on here!

[Greytmate]

Thanks for clarifying. That is great that you are working with HAR to help the dog.

I agree with getting in the behaviorist, but you will always have to be very careful in placing a dog like this, as any work you do can be undone in a new home if the new owners are not willing to continue training.

[je33ie]

We have come a long way in a week or so with Zulu! Today I was able to take her for a walk and she met two dogs and didn't bark once.

As we gradually (and carefully) introduce her to dogs and people, she has become much more relaxed.

I actually don't think she has fear aggression at all now (maybe I jumped to conclusions?) and the barking was more just a playful response to new dogs/people. I will keep an eye on her though and be careful in new situations.

Thanks for all your help though!

[persephone]

Sounds good keep up the great work!