5 Month Kelpie With Fear Agression And Love Of Barking

[je33ie]

Hi all!

We've got a 5 month old rescue kelpie ('Zulu' on the puppy page of Hunter Animal Rescue) who seems to be displaying some fear aggression towards other dogs.

She's come from the pound, and has spent a large chunk of her life in a cage (both at the pound and the vet as she's a parvo-survivor) so I doubt she's had much (if any) socialisation with dogs.

I took her to the beach once and she was a nightmare - launching herself at other dogs, barking, spinning in circles and being generally VERY stressed about the whole situation. I've had a successful play session with our friend's kelpie (once the inital barking and fear calmed down), but she scared the life out of my cousin's mini schnauzer who got aggressive back at her because of the barking and that didn't end well.

My mum has a doberman who's a gentle giant, so I'm thinking of introducing them.

Any ideas on:

- how I can best introduce Zulu to dogs, so she's not so stressed?

- whether I should be encouraging more doggy play-dates?

- when she starts barking and getting scared, am I best to let her go, or to pick her up until she calms down?

She's also VERY protective of me and our house, and will bark like mad for ages if anyone comes near me or the house (people walking past can have her going crazy at the front door for minutes after they've passed... it's not fun).

Any suggestions much appreciated!!!

Edited December 29, 2009 by je33ie

[je33ie]

Bump

[persephone]

IMO - fear aggression needs one-on-one professional help.

You pup had a rough start at the very important beginning of her life- so her brain is now wired a bit differently.

If you ask on here, someone will give you recommendations for a professional to assess and advise.

I will say one thing tho- when she is carrying on- do not pick her up/pat/talk to her.

Best of luck with her...

[Jumabaar]

I think proffessional help as well- idealy with someone who has worked with Kelpies!!

It sounds like you have a focus problem (common in rescue kelpies because they have not been taught to focus on a human for direction and they can be very independant). They have been bred to herd and so the movement of other dogs or any stimulation is causeing that instinct to kick in and she is getting frustrated so barking/lunging. It may/may not be fear aggression (without more details) so I suggest seeing someone soon and nipping it in the bud early on because they are smart dogs and will learn the wrong thing quite easily (which I found out the hard way) and it is probably something easy to fix at this point!!

Until you get proffessional advice I would be trying to get her to watch you and channeling that frustration into other exercises such as sit/drop. Another focus game I play with my kelpies is 'follow me'- I have heaps of treats and it just involves walking/jogging and changing directions and getting them to follow/keep up with you. Bascially you are thier sheep and you feed them for following you- this will get the focus on you as being 'fun' and everything else as being boring!

Also some Kelpies just dont play well with other breeds. It took 2 yrs for one of my Kelpies to understand how other dogs play and often young Kelpies are very rude and get into other dogs faces so perhaps instead of trying to get her to play with other dogs get her focused on playing with you when other dogs are around.

Perhaps look at something like flat work agility training of begining flyball training (again ground work) to burn off some energy. It is more about mental stimulation with a Kelpie to tire them out and a tired Kelpie the best kind to have!!

[Shmurps]

I have a dog like this that I have been working with for months.

I am probably not going to be very helpful and I look forward to reading other replies.

We attended obedience classes to see if this would help..wrong. Although she was very good at her training, she was very stressed and therefore always reacting.

After researching, reading and talking to behavourists I found Turid Rugaas. I got her books and dvd and found her way very helpful.

Taking her away from stressful situations is the best you can do. You have to reintroduce her to things very slowly.

I found her book Barking, the sound of language, very helpful and Calming Signals dvd really good.

[persephone]

Perhaps look at something like flat work agility training of begining flyball training (again ground work) to burn off some energy.

Can these be done at 5 months?(sorry, I have never done either, so don't know)

with a pup showing behaviours as described, perhaps doing this , where other dogs are would not be a good thing at present ...

[Jumabaar]

Perhaps look at something like flat work agility training of begining flyball training (again ground work) to burn off some energy.

Can these be done at 5 months?(sorry, I have never done either, so don't know)

with a pup showing behaviours as described, perhaps doing this , where other dogs are would not be a good thing at present ...

Basic work in both agility and flyball is about getting the dog to focus and move to and with the handler which can be started at 6mths (so the pup would be old enough by the time clubs started back in feb). I would expect that there would be experienced working dog handlers that would be able to encourage je33ie to go and see someone for help but also encourage her to work with Zulu just be motivational.

I have seen other rescue Kelpies begining dog sports in the same way and have also seen them improve quickly once the dog focused on the handler. I acutally had a Kelpie (my first dog and not a rescue) that was barking and lunging and was told by someone that I shouldnt take her to obedience. So I took her to flyball and she is now a champ and has flyball titles. She wasnt aggressive, she just didnt care that I was on the other end of the lead. It wasnt until I saw a professional (in this case a trainer) and I worked through the focus issues with her that she stopped doing it.

We actually had a rescue Kelpie recently at out FLyball club with a similar story (barking, lunging) and I have to say within a few weeks of focus work the improvement was amazing! They didnt work next to the rest of us training but on a long line a about 50 meters away and slowly moved toward the rest of the group doing the same exercise until she was actually doing her exercises with dogs around her.

[Shmurps]

Yes it's true when they are focused on something it's fine, but it's getting through everyday life.

When we were at training and she was working, she was great, but when it came time to mix, she stressed and reacted.

[persephone]

Thanks

[dancinbcs]

Not all dogs need or want to "play" with other dogs. I also recommend a professional trainer to assess her but you may have to accept that she doesn't want or need to interact with other dogs.

As she has never been conditoned to play with other dogs, I would tend to work more on getting her to ignore them rather than interact with them, unless you can find another friendly Kelpie to try to help teach her some Kelpie games. Many top winning obedience dogs are trained to focus on their owners and completely ignore other dogs. Some dogs love other dogs and others are snobs and hate having other dogs in their face. This is not DA as they will gladly ignore the other dogs provided they stay out of their space. You can get both attitudes in the one litter.

Some breeds just do better with their own kind and some of the herding breeds are very much this way. While individual dogs may be happy to interact with other breeds some just don't like them. Border Collies show a distinct preference for their own breed and I imagine this would apply to Kelpies to some extent too. The tendency of a working sheepdog to "eye" sheep when working means that they consider it the height of bad manners if another dog "eyes" them, and often react badly to it. The other breeds, of course, have no idea what they did to upset the BC or Kelpie, they thought they were just "looking" but it wasn't interpreted that way. I have also found that many Aussie Shepherds like to charge into one another when running, just for fun, but other breeds can take huge offence at being shoulder charged if they don't understand the game.

If you can teach this puppy to simply ignore other dogs she will probably be quite happy and will be safe to have around other under control dogs. Some good advice here from woofenpup on focusing exercises but do try to find a good trainer who understands Kelpies.

[poodlefan]

Has this dog actually bitten another dog?

[megan_]

You need to see a behaviourist. I'm sure someone here can suggest a good one in Newcastle (it is an unregulated industry so I wouldn't be using the phone book/google to pick one!). I think Steve from K9force would be close to you (he is on here).

I have a fearful dog who displays no aggression. She has made INCREDIBLE progress since I saw a behaviourist a few months ago - it has been worth every cent. I only wish I had gone earlier. Fear is a very horrible state to be in. Please don't pfaff around trying to find a solution - get an expert in and both of you will enjoy a much better quality of life.

ETA: In the meantime, keep her on leash outside of your yard and away from other dogs. I wouldn't be introducing her to the dobe just yet until you've seen someone and have the skills/tools to deal with the situation. Every time you put her in a situation that she reacts you are reinforcing her behaviour. Unfortunately, there is no magic cure and it will take months of work to slowly build her up. But it is worth it!

Edited December 30, 2009 by megan_

[peibe]

Have you contacted HAR about this?

I am sure they would point you in the right direction with a trainer they work with

He is a really good guy and will be very helpful

[Shmurps]

You need to see a behaviourist. I'm sure someone here can suggest a good one in Newcastle (it is an unregulated industry so I wouldn't be using the phone book/google to pick one!). I think Steve from K9force would be close to you (he is on here).

I have a fearful dog who displays no aggression. She has made INCREDIBLE progress since I saw a behaviourist a few months ago - it has been worth every cent. I only wish I had gone earlier. Fear is a very horrible state to be in. Please don't pfaff around trying to find a solution - get an expert in and both of you will enjoy a much better quality of life.

ETA: In the meantime, keep her on leash outside of your yard and away from other dogs. I wouldn't be introducing her to the dobe just yet until you've seen someone and have the skills/tools to deal with the situation. Every time you put her in a situation that she reacts you are reinforcing her behaviour. Unfortunately, there is no magic cure and it will take months of work to slowly build her up. But it is worth it!

Out of curiosity, how or what methods did your behavourist use?

And yes I would agree not to be introducing her to the dobe yet.

There is no magic cure and takes a long time. I have found that I have learnt so much about dogs, yes fustrating at times but like you say rewarding and worth it.

[je33ie]

Thanks everyone for the ideas! No, she hasn't bitten another dog so I don't know if it is fear aggression.

I like the ideas of games for her to distract her when barking.

Have you contacted HAR about this?

I am sure they would point you in the right direction with a trainer they work with

He is a really good guy and will be very helpful

This is a good idea! I'll talk to HAR to see what they think.

[megan_]

You need to see a behaviourist. I'm sure someone here can suggest a good one in Newcastle (it is an unregulated industry so I wouldn't be using the phone book/google to pick one!). I think Steve from K9force would be close to you (he is on here).

I have a fearful dog who displays no aggression. She has made INCREDIBLE progress since I saw a behaviourist a few months ago - it has been worth every cent. I only wish I had gone earlier. Fear is a very horrible state to be in. Please don't pfaff around trying to find a solution - get an expert in and both of you will enjoy a much better quality of life.

ETA: In the meantime, keep her on leash outside of your yard and away from other dogs. I wouldn't be introducing her to the dobe just yet until you've seen someone and have the skills/tools to deal with the situation. Every time you put her in a situation that she reacts you are reinforcing her behaviour. Unfortunately, there is no magic cure and it will take months of work to slowly build her up. But it is worth it!

Out of curiosity, how or what methods did your behavourist use?

And yes I would agree not to be introducing her to the dobe yet.

There is no magic cure and takes a long time. I have found that I have learnt so much about dogs, yes fustrating at times but like you say rewarding and worth it.

She (Erny) would do a much better job of explaining. It has a been a combination of leadership (which I thought I was doing, but it needed to be MUCH clearer for my girl), getting her used to a leash (she would freeze for hours with it on and no amount of food would coax her to move) and getting her socialised in the right (controlled) environment. I get everyone to ignore her. She can now walk past playing kids, joggers, cricketers etc and not freak out. She has even passed foundation dog school.

[fainty_girl]

On this forum there was another kelpie owner who used to say that busy dog parks aren't always the best place for kelpies and this is certainly true for my kelpie X Tilly.

Tilly isn't an angel, but i've found that she is much better when she is exercised in quiet places where the odd dog might stroll through with its owner. Busy dog parks are just way too much for her and I stopped taking her to them when she was starting scuffles with certain dogs. So I only exercise her in quiet places and I work on her recall by rewarding her with pats & praise (which she loves), a game of tug-of-war, or sometimes calling her over to me and giving a jump command for her to jump over a bench. For Tilly things have to be exciting and she tends to ignore an even slightly grumpy tone of voice! Tilly was about 8 months old when I got her from the pound and she had zero training to begin with, so she has improved since we got her, it is just a gradual process.

It sounds like you definitely need some help from a professional. I hope things get better for you soon!

[peibe]

The first port of call for a dog with issues that comes from a rescue or breeder is to contact them first

I hope HAR are able to put you in touch with the trainer they know

If not send me a PM and I can give you a number to call

[Czara]

She's come from the pound, and has spent a large chunk of her life in a cage (both at the pound and the vet as she's a parvo-survivor) so I doubt she's had much (if any) socialisation with dogs.

Any suggestions much appreciated!!!

I would suggest keep her under control (ie on-lead) while you go out of your way to introduce her/socialise her with other dogs. Correct any antisocial behaviour firmly, and lots of praise/reward for being good. Small steps with lots of patience and time. It worked wonderfully with my (rescue) dog - she was 11 months and not well socialised when I got her, but 4 months later is happy, well-adjusted and with many doggy mates that she could (eventually) happily romp off-lead with.

Despite all the various fashions of the day, it's very simple really: positive and negative reinforcement to shape bahaviour

[megan_]

I believe that Kelpies are very sensitive dogs and don't always respond to negative reinforcement. I could be wrong. That is why seeing an expert is so important.