Staffordshire Bull Terrier Colour Possibilities

[Purple Diamond]

Hi, I have a couple of questions regarding the colours of Staffordshire Bull Terriers and how the Sire and Dams colours impact on the litter. I have read the breed standard and am aware of the acceptable colours in the Staffordshire Bull Terrier however I am not sure how the genetics side of things works. A work colleague has recently purchased a papered SBT however is now questioning whether the listed Sire and Dam are actually the pup's parents.

They have a copy of the parents DNA health tests. Is it possible to test the parentage of the pup without the breeders knowledge? Can a blue dog produce coloured pups, other than brindle, if there are only blue and black brindle coloured dogs listed on the pedigree?

Do dog genetics work in a similar way to humans? How many generations back will the colours show through, ie. white or pied grandparent producing black or brindle pup which then produces a white or pied pup?

The whole colour thing is probably too involved. They asked for my thoughts but I obviously haven't been much help to them. Neither of us are sure how to tell if the 'breeder' is genuine and what to do if something odd is going on.

Any comments on what colours produce what colours in the SBT would be appreciated.

[Sandra777]

Hi, I have a couple of questions regarding the colours of Staffordshire Bull Terriers and how the Sire and Dams colours impact on the litter. I have read the breed standard and am aware of the acceptable colours in the Staffordshire Bull Terrier however I am not sure how the genetics side of things works. A work colleague has recently purchased a papered SBT however is now questioning whether the listed Sire and Dam are actually the pup's parents.

They have a copy of the parents DNA health tests. Is it possible to test the parentage of the pup without the breeders knowledge? Can a blue dog produce coloured pups, other than brindle, if there are only blue and black brindle coloured dogs listed on the pedigree?

Do dog genetics work in a similar way to humans? How many generations back will the colours show through, ie. white or pied grandparent producing black or brindle pup which then produces a white or pied pup?

The whole colour thing is probably too involved. They asked for my thoughts but I obviously haven't been much help to them. Neither of us are sure how to tell if the 'breeder' is genuine and what to do if something odd is going on.

Any comments on what colours produce what colours in the SBT would be appreciated.

OK - quick low-down

Staffords come in brindle, whole coloured red, tan pattern or white/pied. They are either fully pigmented (not blue) or dilute (blue). There is also liver but ignore that one for now

Red to red only produces red or black and tan (could also produce liver)

brindle to brindle can produce absolutely anything because it is the dominant gene and can hide any other gene.

Generations of brindle breeding can produce huge surprises - I know of a dog which sires red pups despite the fact his nearest red ancestor is SIX generations back, and then there's only one of them!

Blue is a recessive gene which dilutes black pigment. It is not actually a colour in itself. AFAIK two blues mated together can produce only blue dilute - however it could be blue fawn or blue brindle. "Blue"and "blue brindle"are the same colour.

The only exception to this would be pieds and whites - white is an absence of colour so masks what is there can you could get a pure white dog which is genetically blue dilute because these are two different genes and one cancels out the other.

A blue mated to another colour can produce anything as it's a recessive gene so can be overpowered by virtually any other gene so without knowing if both parents are blue or what the other parent is I can't even begin to guess.

If they have both the parent's DNA certificates they can DNA test the puppy to confirm whether the parents are genuine or not, they don't need anyone else's permission.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Sandra777

[Purple Diamond]

Thanks Sandra777. A great basic explanation of genetics/colours.

So a blue mated to a brindle could produce a red/white pied if there is red and also white in the brindle dogs lines? The blue has blue, blue fawn and blue brindle listed in the pedigree and 3 generations back there were two black dogs that produced a blue.

What determines the white markings? ie. collars, chests, white paws, etc. Can this just come from one parent (One parent solid colour, other parent white markings)?

[shoemonster]

In Vic, just get these guys to swab the dog and for $70 they will get a DNA profile and know for sure (assuming both parents were actually tested, and if not the test will show that)

http://www.gtg.com.au/AnimalDNATesting/ind...?menuid=080.150

The vets can do it, or I think they still go to some shows as well

[WreckitWhippet]

No ethical breeder would knock back a request to confirm parentage, if there are any doubts, why not just ask them.

[Silverblue]

Just be prepared for the answers though !!!!!!!

I have just been through it myself, had DNA taken for "Clear By Parentage" turns out the sire on the pedgiree wasn't the actual sire, IT CAN HAPPEN. shouldn't but can.

Worse bit was I sent the bitch away to be mated.

[Purple Diamond]

Well, my colleague has just received the results of the DNA testing. Initially the breeder was quite rude and told my colleague that she was a 'registered breeder' and 'you have the papers, what more do you want'. She would not consent to DNA testing which sounded even more suspicious.

Long story, but eventually the 'breeder' agreed to a DNA test and said she would give the DNA sample to my colleague who could then pay to have it tested. My colleague was firm and told her the Vet had to gather to DNA sample. Results are back and the sire is NOT the sire listed on the pedigree!!

My colleague is upset that the 'breeder' lied although now she is saying one of her other dogs must have mated to the female very early or late in her cycle.

The pup was purchased with main register papers for showing purposes. Now my colleague is not sure what she should do as the papers are incorrect. Does it matter for showing purposes? Obviously for breeding the pedigrees would be incorrect. Apparently DogsVic have a complaints process but you have to pay to have the complaint looked into with a partial refund if the matter is proven. Would you recommend my colleague goes down this path or just leave things as they are?

Thanks :-)

[WreckitWhippet]

Of course it matters, the integrity of the register is now at stake and a buyer has also not gotten what they have paid for. A letter of complaint needs to be written to the canine council in the state that the pup was bred and registered in and any supporting evidence should accompny the complaint.

[centitout]

Wouldnt ALL the pups from that litter now need testing to confirm parentage?

[ellz]

Yes and I would think that the CC has the power to demand that the breeder organise to do so or the entire litter can be deregistered.

[Sandra777]

Definitely complain to the appropriate CC - include copies of the appropriate DNA tests. This is a serious issue and will affect the entire litter.

[OSoSwift]

I would definately lodge a complaint and get it sorted out. Many people could be affected by this, some may have bought puppies for breeeding. They need to know

[Purple Diamond]

Thanks everyone, I will let her know to make a complaint and how serious the issue is.

I think she was worried about either nothing being done by DogsVic or the negative effects that may occur for her from the breeder. Probably a bit selfish considering there are other puppies from the litter and their owners who are most probably unaware of the situation.

[dancinbcs]

Yes and I would think that the CC has the power to demand that the breeder organise to do so or the entire litter can be deregistered.

If the breeder does not test the rest of the litter and have the registrations corrected then the CC will demand that it is done. The rules are very clear about this now. In the case of this particular puppy that has already been tested, his papers can be corrected by the CC immediately proof of DNA testing is provided.

[SpikesPuppy]

Hopefully the real sire is on Main Register and has passed all of his health clearances etc.

What a terrible situation for your colleague and what a negative thing for all registered breeders I know accidents do happen etc but the breeder didn't have to be so rude/suspicious about it!

[twodoggies2001]

Hi, I have a couple of questions regarding the colours of Staffordshire Bull Terriers and how the Sire and Dams colours impact on the litter. I have read the breed standard and am aware of the acceptable colours in the Staffordshire Bull Terrier however I am not sure how the genetics side of things works. A work colleague has recently purchased a papered SBT however is now questioning whether the listed Sire and Dam are actually the pup's parents.

They have a copy of the parents DNA health tests. Is it possible to test the parentage of the pup without the breeders knowledge? Can a blue dog produce coloured pups, other than brindle, if there are only blue and black brindle coloured dogs listed on the pedigree?

Do dog genetics work in a similar way to humans? How many generations back will the colours show through, ie. white or pied grandparent producing black or brindle pup which then produces a white or pied pup?

The whole colour thing is probably too involved. They asked for my thoughts but I obviously haven't been much help to them. Neither of us are sure how to tell if the 'breeder' is genuine and what to do if something odd is going on.

Any comments on what colours produce what colours in the SBT would be appreciated.

OK - quick low-down

Staffords come in brindle, whole coloured red, tan pattern or white/pied. They are either fully pigmented (not blue) or dilute (blue). There is also liver but ignore that one for now

Red to red only produces red or black and tan (could also produce liver)

brindle to brindle can produce absolutely anything because it is the dominant gene and can hide any other gene.

Generations of brindle breeding can produce huge surprises - I know of a dog which sires red pups despite the fact his nearest red ancestor is SIX generations back, and then there's only one of them!

Blue is a recessive gene which dilutes black pigment. It is not actually a colour in itself. AFAIK two blues mated together can produce only blue dilute - however it could be blue fawn or blue brindle. "Blue"and "blue brindle"are the same colour.

The only exception to this would be pieds and whites - white is an absence of colour so masks what is there can you could get a pure white dog which is genetically blue dilute because these are two different genes and one cancels out the other.

A blue mated to another colour can produce anything as it's a recessive gene so can be overpowered by virtually any other gene so without knowing if both parents are blue or what the other parent is I can't even begin to guess.

If they have both the parent's DNA certificates they can DNA test the puppy to confirm whether the parents are genuine or not, they don't need anyone else's permission.

I have a question please. My friend's son is picking up an albino 4months old pup from the RSPCA tomorrow. I reminded him that albinos have red/pink eyes and he said he does. Is he looking for trouble?

[poodlefan]

I have a question please. My friend's son is picking up an albino 4months old pup from the RSPCA tomorrow. I reminded him that albinos have red/pink eyes and he said he does. Is he looking for trouble?

It seems very likely. Owners of albino dogs report a range of health issues relating to the condition.

No 1 and most obvious is skin issues arising from exposure to the sun. A dog with no melanin in its skin will be highly prone to sunburn and cancer.

Many albino dogs also have eyes that don't cope well with full sunlight. Albino dogs are entirely unsuitable for a life outside.

Less obvious can be problems such as deafness, skin rashes and an increased chance of neurological problems.

Albinos are commonly regarded as having less healthy immune systems than pigmented dogs.

I'd not be lining up to own one.

Edited February 1, 2010 by poodlefan

[Sandra777]

I have a question please. My friend's son is picking up an albino 4months old pup from the RSPCA tomorrow. I reminded him that albinos have red/pink eyes and he said he does. Is he looking for trouble?

Albinos are a genetic mutation or "freak" to be non-PC. IMO they should not be raised because of the health issues that will abound. They are not "white" in the sense a genetically white dog is white, they are genetically "wrong".

I would be trying reasonably hard to steer son elsewhere, unless he wants a dog with the potential for major health issues including melanoma from a VERY early age.

[twodoggies2001]

I have a question please. My friend's son is picking up an albino 4months old pup from the RSPCA tomorrow. I reminded him that albinos have red/pink eyes and he said he does. Is he looking for trouble?

Albinos are a genetic mutation or "freak" to be non-PC. IMO they should not be raised because of the health issues that will abound. They are not "white" in the sense a genetically white dog is white, they are genetically "wrong".

I would be trying reasonably hard to steer son elsewhere, unless he wants a dog with the potential for major health issues including melanoma from a VERY early age.

Thanks to both replies. I have spoken to my friend and he said his son had already paid the RSPCA for the pup. Duh!!! Told him to get another pup from there and leave problems. What I am very disappointed about is that the RSPCA allows such a pup to be adopted out. Apparently this pup was originally bought from a pet shop and then given up. Wouldn't you think this would ring alarm bells? Some people are incredibly naive and are ruled by the heart and not the head. His father told me that if there are problems with the pup, they will have it put down. Why step into such a situation when there are other adoptable pups out there? There, glad I got that off my chest!!!!

[Jed]

Well, my colleague has just received the results of the DNA testing. Initially the breeder was quite rude and told my colleague that she was a 'registered breeder' and 'you have the papers, what more do you want'. She would not consent to DNA testing which sounded even more suspicious.

Long story, but eventually the 'breeder' agreed to a DNA test and said she would give the DNA sample to my colleague who could then pay to have it tested. My colleague was firm and told her the Vet had to gather to DNA sample. Results are back and the sire is NOT the sire listed on the pedigree!!

My colleague is upset that the 'breeder' lied although now she is saying one of her other dogs must have mated to the female very early or late in her cycle.

The pup was purchased with main register papers for showing purposes. Now my colleague is not sure what she should do as the papers are incorrect. Does it matter for showing purposes? Obviously for breeding the pedigrees would be incorrect. Apparently DogsVic have a complaints process but you have to pay to have the complaint looked into with a partial refund if the matter is proven. Would you recommend my colleague goes down this path or just leave things as they are?

Thanks :-)

She should DEFINITELY complain to the state CC with supporting evidence. ie, copy of pedigree and dna tests. You are in another state, so I am not sure whether she will have to pay to undertake the claims process. Check that thorougly. I would phone them and put it to them verbally before I wrote.

The breeder will be in trouble.

And that's how it should.

I can never understand WHy breeders do this. So shonky.

Siccem