kelpiesrule Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I think breeding has become far too clinical and we arent allowing our dogs to do what comes natural. All for the sake of the next best in show winner ?? I have had 7 litters to date and only one was c-setion... no fault of the bitch, she only had one pup in her and she wasnt going into labour, he was also huge and facing the wrong way, so the decision was made to take him out before anything bad happened. All my girls mate natural and whelp natural. In my first litter I had a tiny baby and in my current litter I had 3 tiny babies. The tiny babies are fed the best I can without too much interferance.. and fingers crossed they survive, I lost one of the tiny babies in my last litter, but that is the only pup I have ever lost. Sounds a bit harsh not interfering too much with the little ones? Maybe, but if they survive, they deserve it. It is sad, but there really isnt much you can do with the little ones... vets are really not much help as they dont know what is wrong with them and we end up forking out hundreds or thousands of dollars for nothing. Yes I have a healthy breed, but there are already breeders out there who are having mating and whelping issues and then breeding on from there, creating more isssues. I love my dogs to pieces and will do anything to keep them.. except fight nature when it obviously has the upper hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiesrule Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 oh I will also add that i have never prog tested or scanned/xrayed to see how many puppies I have... that is all part of the excitement of breeding, seeing if it all works from start to finish. I have only done AI once is it looked like the girl didnt like the dog.. but we got two naturals after that... i should have listened to her as she obviously wasnt ready and that was the time I only got one pup... Ive also found it interesting in the amount of AI = C-setion = mother rejecting pups.... nothing natural has happened I dont have a problem with frozen semen when it comes with distance etc, but needs to be from a male that is a proven performer and a female who is a proven mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Far too much intervention. Survival of the fittest is wise. Only one ceasarian here, desexed the dog. Any that are not free whelping, good mothers or have a problem with mating I don't breed from. AI is fine for use re distance problems but if a dog does not want to mate, given a choice of stud, as they may for some unknown reason just refuse some, it is usually for a good reason. Which we may not know. Sup feeding puppies that are struggling is another thing. It is very hard to just sit back & watch nature take its course, so I don't & help as much as I can. Also think there seems to be more info etc about it all now not because more goes wrong, its just easier with modern technology to share experiences & we so expect everything now to go perfectly & smoothly or get someone to fix it quick. They seemed more sort of stoic & matter of fact about it all years ago. Unlike me who remembers the vets number quicker than my sons number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 oh I will also add that i have never prog tested or scanned/xrayed to see how many puppies I have... that is all part of the excitement of breeding All our bitches are scanned so we can ensure are schedule is worked around the pups.We run a business & onve we now the bitch is in whelp we ensure one of us can run the fort only & ensure our business needs are worked around the pups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Midniara~ Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I've spent many hours on the phone to one breeder who used to have quite a few c-sections and has worked hard to reduce them to a level where she just doesn't see them anymore. The advice from her in a nutshell, as keep the bitches from the good bitches who do it all on their own. I nearly kept and mated one, thankfully there was a problem mating her, we had her examined by our vet and promptly pet homed her. I don't believe in prog testing, Ai's ( unless imported semen ), holding onto dogs and bitches etc, if they can't mate on their own, whelp on their own and raise their own pups, I don't see the point in breeding them. These are fairly much my sentiments too. By intervening we are breeding a generation of problems with dogs that can't reproduce naturally and/or care for their own offspring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centitout Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 This is when i do intervene.Bloodhounds are big ,clumsy dogs with a tendancy to lie on pups.There is no way i would cop the loss of half a litter because staying with them th efirst couple of days is seen as intervention,survival of the fittest etc. Leila was a hand raised girl that started to fade on day 4 ,so handraised ,intensive nursing etc-she had 13 pups naturally (frozen ai),never laid on one,was the absolute best mum,but her sister was different,panicked with the first litter,laid on several(lucky i was there),this litter she was much better though. Still not a risk i will take.Nothing more heartbreaking than seeing healthy pups born and then finding them crushed the next day/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Absolutley Centitout - I don't even think of whelp sitting as intervention, for most of the folk I know with giant breeds - sleeping in/next to the whelping box is absolutley normal for the first three weeks :-)) You learn the value of a power nap in that time !!! If you want to raise what is born, then being there for those heavy elbows, bums and paws is natural. I know some bitches are very careful, but who would want to risk a precious pup for the sake of insisting on natural selection ? and murphy's law, it would be your pick puppies who ended up flat. fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 I get what the others are saying though guys.....and I have a breed which isn't renowned for being lightfooted either. There is a HUGE difference between being alert and fishing puppies out from underneath a clumsy mum to identifying which are ill, fading or suffering and acting accordingly. I don't see that anybody has said that intervention means ignorance. Although I still do meet breeders from time to time who stay awake for days prior to the birth of the litter, miss work to whelp it and then go back to work almost straight away and leave the litter and the dam to it. OK, that's their "line in the sand" but I personally couldn't do it. Heck, even with near constant vigilance I have lost a few puppies over the past 23 years to being sat on....I'd never be able to live with myself if I went to work or left for a few hours in the crucial first few days and came home to any puppy mortalities. It'd do my head in for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Midniara~ Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Absolutely I stay with my litter for the first few days too and get very little sleep. I wouldn't want a perfectly healthy puppy to be squished to death either. By intervening I mean keeping a puppy alive when clearly nature has not intended it for this pup and by consistenly chosing bitches and lines that aren't free whelpers. This is just the way I choose to do things and I believe that for me this is whats best for my breed and my lines. I'm not critisising others for choosing to do differently. Edited December 30, 2009 by ~Midniara~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiesrule Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Of course we have to totally baby sit once puppies are born ! To not do so is negligence and we need to do our best to give these precious little babies the best start. I think there is far too much scientific interference in producing these little guys that is causing so many problems. I sleep beside my babies for the first week, rarely leaving the whelping box. Mothers are not perfect and the last thing we want is them laying on their babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Newbie question here BUT is it necessary to sleep next to or with the bitch for the first week with all size dogs? The reason I ask is that of the 9 or 10 rescue bitches we've had through here only one has ever squashed a pup and that was a Rotty X. They've been various sizes from Terriers through to the Rotty with the majority being Cattle Dog size and have had litters varying from 3 pups to 9 pups (the Rotty's litter). I understand that it is different when it is your own dog and a deliberate breeding so it has a higher value - well it would to me but my question is more a case of how necessary is it really? With our rescue litters we have had them inside and we check on them regularly but we pretty much just leave mum to it for the first two weeks. We provide a clean and safe place to be and high quality food but otherwise we just leave them to it. Are there any breeders who don't spend the first week with their bitch & pups who can comment on losses they've had? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shellbyville Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 I can't help you Trisven13, I have a litter of labs here who are 4 weeks old and I have just spent the first night back in my own bed! I don't sleep beside them because I need to, but because I want to for my own peace of mind and also because I don't like to miss out on anything. I find the mum ( who is doing a great job) seems more at ease when I am close. I haven't had to intervene at all, but am just there to make sure all goes well. I am sure if I wasn't there the mum would be fine, she is very, very careful, I don't think she would ever squash a pup. I invest a lot of my energy and time into these pups and they are very friendly, social little things now at 4 weeks, because I have handled them a lot from birth. I only breed a litter, although this year 2 litters a year, so spending the 8 weeks with these babies is a joy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Newbie question here BUT is it necessary to sleep next to or with the bitch for the first week with all size dogs? I spent 3 weeks beside the box with Sway. I think with a giant breed it is a must. Everyone breed/bitch/breeder will do what works for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Midniara~ Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Newbie question here BUT is it necessary to sleep next to or with the bitch for the first week with all size dogs? I do spend the first week or so with mum and babies to make sure that mum is coping well. It has never been necessary but for me it has just been mainly for my own piece of mind. With my litter of 11 pups mum used to call out to me for help if a pup strayed too far from her in the whelping box because she didn't want to unsettle all the other pups that were feeding on her to go and get the stray pup. She really did appreciate my help and would ask for it if she needed it. She raised all 11 pups without my feeding any of them and they all thrived. They are all now 16 months old and as healthy as can be. With that litter I spent three weeks close to mum. I don't sleep next to the whelping box but I do sleep in the same room. I wouldn't call it sleep though as I am always listening out for any noises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashanali Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) I don't stay next to the box... they are within ear shot but I don't 'hover'. Never lost a pup to squashing. ETA: I have Pointers Edited January 1, 2010 by Ashanali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 When we have had a tiny breed come into work with a litter for various reasons, I've always found it so different ! little basket in the cage, little mum's so careful and maternal, and you can just pop in and check them ! no great gallomping elbows, paws, butts !!! Sometimes I think it would be easier to own tenties or something !!! fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) The first couple of days I do at least sleep in the room but as long as Mum is doing her job after that I leave her to it. I haven't to date (touch wood) lost a puppy via this. The biggest threat is making sure they are all getting on and actually feeding rather than just having their mouth in the right place. I have shelties ETA I do have the first week off work in case I need to help. Sometimes it has been a full on time and other times it is just a matter of watching them grow Edited January 1, 2010 by cowanbree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 I don't just watch to prevent mum from sitting on puppies, I'm also very concious of temperature changes too. And I also know of people who have had puppy mortality from bedding being rearranged on top of puppies which then suffocate. So much can go wrong in those first days/weeks before puppies can regulate their own temperatures and begin to move away from hazardous situations and it isn't always obvious things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centitout Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 I had a bitch years ago that whelped 3 days early ,no sign of nesting etc and i got up in the morning to 4 squashed ,huge pups,4 alive. Brontes first litter of 13- whelped naturally night before,all seemed good,ran the boys to footy practise that afternoon,came home to 2 squashed,another the next day,which is now why i sleep with them for first 3-4 days and spend the next week manically checking /counting pups every 2 hrs. Had one a couple of years ago have 11,no problems,Leila was very good also,had 1 near miss (biggest pup ) but i will not take the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Of course we have to totally baby sit once puppies are born ! To not do so is negligence and we need to do our best to give these precious little babies the best start. I think there is far too much scientific interference in producing these little guys that is causing so many problems. I sleep beside my babies for the first week, rarely leaving the whelping box. Mothers are not perfect and the last thing we want is them laying on their babies. Personally I think sleeping beside the whelping box is overkill. Sure I have a small breed who are less prone to squash pups, but that said I was sitting next to the whelping box eating dinner. When Ruby was scratching around with the bedding I straitened it and found a dead pup. It had not made a sound. So broad daylight, well early pm, wide awake and dead squashed pup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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