A Question For Fellow Breeders....

[ellz]

Norskgra, your girl has made me think even harder, but please don't take this as being aimed SPECIFICALLY at you ok?

I've been wondering for some time if we as breeders are our animals own worst enemies when it comes to reproduction?

Do we insist upon so much micro-management when it comes to breeding, that we are actually causing problems inadvertently?

If something doesn't go to plan, or fit within certain guidelines, or come into season when it should, or whelp when we feel that it needs to....we intervene. Sometimes we make the right call. Sometimes we don't.

But...I don't recall anywhere near as many whelping and gestational issues when I first started breeding 23 years ago as we seem to be seeing now. Why is that?

Is it unhealthy society and what we are putting into our dogs? Is it that we have become very reliant upon medical technology to assist us with pregnancies that would probably never have happened before prog testing, sperm counts, AI and many other procedures became commonplace?

Is it that years ago, natural selection would have seen us weed out the problem breeders and therefore reduce the potential that they themselves would go on to produce more problem breeders?

What is it?

Has science and technology REALLY been good for the purebred dog industry or are we just kidding ourselves??

Enquiring minds wanna know but please don't shoot the messenger, am interested in all perspectives on this one.

[WreckitWhippet]

Yes to all of the above .

[Norskgra]

I know you weren't aiming it at me specifically.

I have been doing a lot of thinking too Ellz. I have to agree with SBT123.

When I had my first litter 30 years ago, we never had as many problems as now. We didn't have the vet advancements then either and the girls were really only given basic care. They normally didn't have many problems at all. After what happened with Tyra this time, I have decided to basically go back to how I used to do it 30 years ago.

[WreckitWhippet]

I've spent many hours on the phone to one breeder who used to have quite a few c-sections and has worked hard to reduce them to a level where she just doesn't see them anymore. The advice from her in a nutshell, as keep the bitches from the good bitches who do it all on their own. I nearly kept and mated one, thankfully there was a problem mating her, we had her examined by our vet and promptly pet homed her.

I don't believe in prog testing, Ai's ( unless imported semen ), holding onto dogs and bitches etc, if they can't mate on their own, whelp on their own and raise their own pups, I don't see the point in breeding them.

[cowanbree]

I would like to be able to say that but unfortunately there just aren’t that many lines in shelties that meet all my criteria’s and free whelp. Is very hard to breed a decent sheltie, I don’t do ai’s, or any of the other artificial things but yes I have a line that has a history of c-sections. Difficult question, do you really give up the type and style of dog you love and have bred for many years for an inferior dog just to free whelp?

[ellz]

I don't have ready access to prog testing or quick results so I've never bothered with it.

As far as c-sections are concerned.....I did mention to my vet that Koda's litter would be her last due to her having to have a c-section. His comment was that in her case, he wouldn't be so quick to throw in the towel. Given that she had 9 puppies and the way her uterine horns were twisted in, around and under themselves he feels it was very unlikely that she would have been able to give birth naturally and this also was the reason that the counting xray wasn't successful....they couldn't visualise the bits of uterus under the top layer of the jigsaw puzzle. She also had a puppy collision happening in the mouth of the uterus which slowed things down a bit too. Probably providentially now I reflect....it gave me good time to get her to the vet safely before the whole thing became an emergency. As it was, we were able to go in at our leisure with proper anaesthetic and pain relief set up and a couple of extra hands on deck to manage the puppies. No fuss, no rush.

So under his guidance, maybe in 18 months or so, we MIGHT try again with her but given the merest hint of difficulty, or if she has to have another section then she will be speyed at the same time.

In the case of the daughters from this litter....there is only going to be one on Main Register and I am keeping that so I will be able to monitor future generations. The rest are going on Limit with desexing agreements.

There was however NO problem whatsoever with the matings and she took first attempt from natural breedings and 20 minute ties on two consecutive days. AND she read the textbooks about temp drops etc. and had started to dilate but the collision halted proceedings.

This is only my second c-section in Staffords. The other was my old girl Dolly who had a puppy tear her uterus on the way out. Had I not taken her to the vet, I would have lost her and the puppies. As it was, she went through a LOT of blood and the vet at one stage asked if I wanted to save the bitch or the pups. No contest....save my girl. Thankfully we saved Dolly and only lost 1 puppy...the one that got stuck and tore her on the way out.

In American Cockers I've had 2 c-sections...the first on a bitch which had one puppy and refused to dilate. She was never bred from again. And the other was a secondary inertia. She is now speyed and in a pet home.

I've been really lucky, but then I've never been one for heroics and a lot of intervention. And now that I think more about it, I'll leave technology to others and admire their successes and commiserate with them their failures.

[ellz]

Difficult question, do you really give up the type and style of dog you love and have bred for many years for an inferior dog just to free whelp?

No. But is it not possible to work with the lines you like AND the free whelping ones to attempt to create the best of both worlds?

[Dogsfevr]

Never had a C section in 25 yrs .

Only had 1 bitch who had problems to conceive but did so once we realized her cycle was very different.

Most of the people we do now who have issues go totally over board

[Cockerlover]

I personally feel there is to much intervension ,vets r great in an emergency ,but we as breeders know our dogs best ,

mother nature has a way of dealing with natural things ,so i sway towards trusting her judgement & using sence not science

[centitout]

I dont have a problem with using AI if it is more convenient to do so, ,only in regards to distance from stud,frozen,or lines that i otherwise couldnt access,but i want that sire to have proven he can naturally mate without assistance first.I wont have any stud of mine not be able to serve naturally first.

I was always against using pg tests,have always relied on teasing with a male,but Leila has a long standing time before ovulation,so if she was mated according to the books,she would not conceive,her mother was the same,ovulates around day 16/17. But i would not use it as a matter of course thing,that is why i keep teasing records for every season.

C-sections are a different thing-I had Bronte desexed on the table after the 18 pups,her uterus was shot .

Millie had a "waterbaby" ,not having seen it before decided to desex during the c-section,she was going to be done anyway ,2 litters is more than enough.If i had a bitch that suffered primary inertia,would not breed her again.

Not aimed at anyone,but would not breed a bitch /stud that required any sort of hormone therapy or extensive intervention to hold a pregnancy etc,i take my hat off to those who are dedicated enough to do it,but it wouldnt be something i would do.

[Silverblue]

I have been thinking this for a very long time Ellz,

We as breeders do tend to interfer too much,

But take some breeds that cannot mate/whelp/raise their pups without our help, what would happen to those ??, are we prepared to loose those breeds

I had alway thought if they can not do all of the above naturally should they be allowed to be bred from,maybe only try to use lines that are trouble free.

At any time I realise that a emergency can crop up where a C section may be needed, but breeds that are only here because of them is a worry.

JMHO

[ellz]

I have been thinking this for a very long time Ellz,

We as breeders do tend to interfer too much,

But take some breeds that cannot mate/whelp/raise their pups without our help, what would happen to those ??, are we prepared to loose those breeds

I had alway thought if they can not do all of the above naturally should they be allowed to be bred from,maybe only try to use lines that are trouble free.

At any time I realise that a emergency can crop up where a C section may be needed, but breeds that are only here because of them is a worry.

JMHO

Maybe in the case of those breeds which do require a high level of intervention, the breeders should be looking at ways to make their dogs healthier so that they CAN have normal bodily function?

If a breed HAS to be micro-managed then surely there is a question mark about the validity overall?

Yes, very simplistic. And yes, will no doubt p!ss more than a few people off. But if you're going to simply things so that it is "survival of the fittest" then those breeds which don't fit, essentially don't belong.

[Ashanali]

I had one c-section on a JRT.

She was desexed.

[Bokezu]

I remember coming in here 20 months ago, reading about all the ai's, prog testing etc......I thought to myself why?? didn't say anything, came back a couple of weeks later to say my dogs had mated naturally and all was well.

I got jumped on for not "assisting" the mating, they did it perfectly well unassisted thank you very much, I was with them, but it is natural for two dogs to mate without help

[Steve]

Yep definitely.

[whippets]

Yes as well.

1/ I won't breed a bitch for the second time if she is:

a. a bad mother

b. cannot free whelp or feed her pups properly.

2/ Won't breed a bitch at all if:

c. could not be bred without vet intervention. eg/ stricture etc. My first whippet was very well bred but had a stricture. I pet homed her. I would prog test a bitch using frozen semen though.

d. has hormone problems

3/ I won't keep a stud that can't mate without intervention. Not including frozen semen into that equation. Or needs any kind of treatment for fertility.

4/ I won't breed from dogs with bad temperaments. Havn't had a bad whippet though. Just ones that don't have show ring pizazz which is different.

Breeders tend to forgive to many things in their stock and this is where problems creep in. Same thing with the cleft palate issue. It could be foetal developmental BUT it also could be hereditary. Depending on which band wagon you want to jump on. I won't have a second litter from a bitch if she produced a cleft palate pup.

Then there is the environmental issue. We have all the best foods, best technology and dogs (people also for that matter) are still just as sick. We have auto-immune disorders on the rise in children. Although the COI lovers tend to blame inbreeding in animals instead of taking the environmental factors into account.

I really could go on forever with this...

[MissMonaro]

When I was a kid, our pet dog had a litter (yes, by accident) - the roaming neighborhood dogs broke our fence down and got to her in our own yard. She was left to whelp the pups herself, cos thats what dogs did....*shrug*. We did lose the tiny runt, we didnt interfere - we didnt know any better anyway. Those pups were raised on weetbix and cows milk to start with cos there was no fancy stuff like puppy formulas etc....well not that we knew of anyway.

Fast forward many years onwards to our first labrador litter.....bitch whelped by herself....basically we didnt really have much of an idea. We just sat and watched....OH did pull the bag off their faces, but that was it. We built a box for her and the pups (as according to the mating, she was a week early, so we werent prepared) - had no idea about pig rails....and she was a shocker for sitting on them too....but they all made it.

Next litter we were a bit wiser......but slowly the more we learnt, the more we seemed to stress about more things.

We've had our fair share of c-sections....working on the 2 hour thing that quite a few vets are big on. However recently when I was telling one that we had a bitch go 5 hours between her 2 pups, the vet was shocked (and this is a repro specialist) ...and said we were just lucky. But then again since that incident, we wondered whether we had been too quick to make that "call" and interfere in the past.

So yes Ellz, its a subject that I ponder on quite regularly to be honest.

[fifi]

I agree about the high amount of intervention these days.

But I'm also old enough to remember the tragic losses - where losing your bitch during a whelping was a very real possibility as ceasarians were almost unheard of. Or the many bitches that were left to 'get on with it' and died a lingering death due to a malpresentation ect.

Good breeders know when it's 'time' to get the vet, and not too late that all is lost.

We are lucky that we have the high standards of obstetric care in veterinary science. I reckon use it, but don't over use it to the point where it is for convienience only.

As for artificial breeding - I guess its a double edged sword, but I am excited at the possibilities it presents with overseas or difficult to access lines using frozen semen.

fifi

[ellz]

Absolutely agree about using frozen semen to open up doors that would otherwise be closed due to geography.

But I'm not a fan of using AI because it is convenient or because the dog refuses to breed or because the bitch has anatomical issues that prevent her from being mated naturally.

I've been down that path, my second litter was AI because the stud dog was a cossetted family pet who used to get corrected (sharply) every time he attempted to mount something so he kind of lost the urge. Would I do it again. Not unless the dog was particularly special and it was a breeding that I HAD to do for the benefit of my breeding program and not necessarily just the showring (and yes, I do believe they are completely different things in many cases). In many cases I believe that if a dog and a bitch cannot accomplish what SHOULD come naturally, then there is something going on that we can't see. It's a pain in the behind, but I think I'd far rather have my precocious youngster who jumped his first bitch without being invited. Obviously not much wrong with his instincts!

And likewise with Koda. Whilst I had heard on the grapevine that litter sisters had strictures and anatomical issues that made mating and whelping difficult....her actual mating was a breeze and I'm probably going to be giving her another shot at whelping down the track and hopefully she'll have a more "normally" sized litter of 4 - 6 instead of the 9 that she had this time when her uterus ended up like a jigsaw puzzle with puppies going every which way!

And yes, c-sections ARE a necessity if something goes amiss. But I don't think it is "cricket" for breeders to go into a breeding with eyes wide open and PLANNING a c-section for convenience or just because the particular breed is "known" to require them. Again, what is wrong with selective breeding to breed for desired quality AND natural breeding properties?? Or is that too simplistic?

[asal]

I have been thinking this for a very long time Ellz,

We as breeders do tend to interfer too much,

But take some breeds that cannot mate/whelp/raise their pups without our help, what would happen to those ??, are we prepared to loose those breeds

I had alway thought if they can not do all of the above naturally should they be allowed to be bred from,maybe only try to use lines that are trouble free.

At any time I realise that a emergency can crop up where a C section may be needed, but breeds that are only here because of them is a worry.

JMHO

Maybe in the case of those breeds which do require a high level of intervention, the breeders should be looking at ways to make their dogs healthier so that they CAN have normal bodily function?

If a breed HAS to be micro-managed then surely there is a question mark about the validity overall?

Yes, very simplistic. And yes, will no doubt p!ss more than a few people off. But if you're going to simply things so that it is "survival of the fittest" then those breeds which don't fit, essentially don't belong.

totally agree, surely "maintaining a breed" should also be striving to maintain a propulation that can do it naturally?

theres enough can go wrong with those that can and so mate and welp naturally.

although sometimes its the vets who convince people the dogs cant.

or horses for that matter.

had a guy bring his aged girl, complete with his vets instructions. she had to be ultrasounded, internally examined, told me to the second almost when the stallion was to serve her than she was implanted with some hormone that was supposed to maintain pregnancy.

3 months and $3,000 in vet bills later still no foal.

so they booked a truck to take her back home. so turfed her and her friend into the same paddock to munch and keep each other company with no vets in attendance and 11 months later. nice BAY FILLY.

did the same again last year and NICE BAY FILLY?

funny that eh?

although have to wonder, the vets made the 3 grand n i gets 400?

the vets never did their part of the bargain, ie live foal yet gets the motza, n i only gets the 400 if the foal turned up live

vets it seems to me are on a pretty good wicket.

n what about those vet checks when we take our babies for vaccination. test hearts, patellas, teste's etc gets all clear.

BUT if things go haywire and crooked as the puppy grows whose responsible and expected to replace now defective pup and or pay resulting vet bills?

the breeder!

what breeder would onsell a puppy that the vet picked these problems up in. NO ONE I KNOW.

but what about the vets that gave these puppies the all clear? they bear no responsiblity, just what are we paying them for i sometimes wonder.

I had a boy exported, tested at 6 weeks. 12 weeks and 16 weeks the last two by the purchasers own vet. two teste descended into the scrotum, then opps one dissappears and who does the buyer want their money back from???

Edited December 29, 2009 by asal