SpikesPuppy Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Is there any reason why blue is an accepted color in the Stafford standard, without allowing for the diluted pigmentation which comes with it? Why not either remove blue from the acceptable color list or allow for the diluted pigmentation?? It's very confusing... I personally think they should either write them into the standard so that they can be judged without contradiction, or write them out all together. My preference being for the later and include them along with the livers and the B & T's. The BSE basically states that to show, breed or award a prize to those colours ( b & T or liver ), serves only to encourage them , where infact they should be ostracised, as when bred with they will spread like a germ. It just seems silly to 'accept' an impossible color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 where infact they should be ostracised, as when bred with they will spread like a germ. Unfortunately 75 years od ostracism hasn't done much to eliminate either black and tan OR liver from the breed. There are black and tan dogs being shown (and doing good winning) all over the world today - in the guise of the black-with-brindle-markings/red smuts/red & creams and the ever popular just-about-black-except-for-the-three-brindle-hairs-on-her-foot. Liver brindle dogs have won top awards under a wide array of judges over the years. Some of the top stud dogs world-wide have been tan-pattern carriers so the gene is so well entrenched in the breed and will remain so for a VERY long time. It still just makes my brain reel that joe public could come on to a site like DOL, see 75 advertisements for Stafford litters, 70 of them for "rare blues" and still swallow it. Sorry, if people are stupid enough to believe the colour is rare they probably deserve everything they get. Personally I love the colour of a PROPER coloured blue - the dark steel blue. The washed out Weimaraner & Amstaff crosses just leave me cold regardless of how good the dog is underneath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 It just seems silly to 'accept' an impossible color. It's included because of politics dating back to 1949. Blue wasn't included in the original breed standard in 1935 but was added on the re-write. I would guess people figured breed experts would know what to do with blues (plus they were extremely rare back then) and would wink an eye at a dark grey nose, or perhaps they never really thought it was an issue. They certainly did know that a blue couldn't have a black nose, but IMO the blues they were talking about then were the proper steel-blue coloured ones that have very dark pigment so to all intents and purposes look black under poor lighting (think 1940's post war UK village halls ) There's plenty of things in breed standards which require background information and can't be taken exactly literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Dolly isn't vermin, she's a really lovely little dog So I've heard The dam of my girls sire, is from Dolly's breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Gee talk about getting hung up on semantics people. Have already made a comment, no need to keep on about it. I don't like blues. I will NEVER own a blue whilst my feet point to the ground and to be honest, if ever one popped into my whelping box, I'd more than likely give it away unregistered so as to save myself embarrassment later on. You're all more than welcome to not like my opinion, that is your right. And yes, they can pop up anywhere the two recessives decide to play hokey pokey in a pedigree. A dog sired by a bitch that I bred sired a litter containing blue in WA. I have no idea if it is any good, I haven't bothered finding out because it really doesn't interest me enough. Eileen, WnH...there has been plenty written on DOL about health issues associated with blue colouration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Came across a couple who were looking for a white male staffy... anyone got any ideas where they may source one? They are currently looking at rescue, but the only white staffy we have is a girl, and they have their heart set on a boy. Nice couple whose old white staffy boy recently passed away at an advanced age. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaymatt Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Geez... you wouldn't want to be the one " that popped up the wrong colour", would you?..... if you didn't set out to breed blue but 1 or 2 happened along in the litter ... How could they be classed as " Vermon" and no interest shown in how they turned out, from a registered ethical breeders point of view . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Geez... you wouldn't want to be the one " that popped up the wrong colour", would you?..... if you didn't set out to breed blue but 1 or 2 happened along in the litter ... How could they be classed as " Vermon" and no interest shown in how they turned out, from a registered ethical breeders point of view . I didn't for one minute say that I would show no interest (you make a lot of assumptions), OR that they wouldn't be cared for as well as any other puppy in a litter, but the chances of them appearing with the lines that I am using now are virtually nil and if one DID appear, as I said, it would be pethomed immediately it was old enough and that would be the end of that. My involvement as a breeder would be no less. They would still be wormed, microchipped, vaccinated, vet checked and as much care (if not more) put into selecting a suitable home for them and they would still receive my support 24/7 for life...EVERY person who breeds a litter of puppies ethically should provide no less. HOWEVER, as a "serious" breeder and exhibitor, blues have absolutely NO value to me because they are simply INCORRECT based upon the standard which we must adhere to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaymatt Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Happy to hear that Elz.... it was just that you said a dog from your breeding( a dog sired by a bitch I bred) I couldn't quite get that but took it as a bitch you bred was sired by a dog and blue pups resulted..... and that you couldn't care less how they turned out as you were not interested .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 (edited) No. A bitch that I bred was sent to a home in Western Australia, where she has been bred from. One of her sons has produced blue. I have little interest in finding out the quality of those blues because I simply don't like the colour and don't believe that (until the standard is changed at least) any "serious" breeder should be concentrating on them to the detriment of other colours which ARE accepted by the standard. That said, the kennel which own her are not a "blue" kennel, nor do they concentrate on them. I have no knowledge about whether they planned the litter to get blue or not, but I rather suspect not. Editing to add: And having said that. Now that they seem to have worked out that they do have blue in their lines, they do seem to be planning and breeding more blue. Disappointing, but as I sold the bitch, I have little say in what her owners do with her. Edited December 27, 2009 by ellz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaymatt Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Thanks for explaining.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TessiesTracey Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 The same 'situation' with blue's is at epidemic proportions in the UK too. 'Rare' blue's just aren't so bloomin' rare any more and sadly they do seem to be being produced by people who do not have or do not care to have any real knowledge of the breed. The colour does of course 'pop up' in other litters that are being bred by decent Stafford show goers. A while back there was a bit of a stir as lots of adverts were cropping up for 'rare' merle Staffords. Long and the short of it is, is that the UK Kennel Club were contacted as one of the people selling the merles said that the pups were KC registered. No one could understand why. The KC then stated that they did not have a problem with registering this colour (despite it not being in the breed standard) as the litter can be registered as colour unrecognised. A lot of the main argument being what is the point of registering a litter as a certain colour, yet selling them or advertising them as another. And yet we are also led to believe that the blue merle gene does not exist in the Stafford gene pool, so how can the Stafford pups that this breeder registered possibly 'full' Stafford. I think I've got that right!! Though I might have missed some salient pieces of info out (if so apologies in advance). I can't remember exactly what the outcome was, but basically, I think that the breed council health liaison officer has contacted the KC, not sure of any outcome.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badboyz Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 I so hate these threads. I know in my breed dilutes are acceptable and in staffords they are not. But quite frankly that is not the point. I do usually charge a little more for popular colours over standard colours - just because I can. My prices range from $1000 - $1500, so not over the top. When asked why the blues are more, I will always answer honestly - just because the colour is more popular. I never claim they are rare. As you say just looking at the number of pups for sale can show any fool they are not rare. The blues, chocolates, lilacs generally always sell first - just because they are a pretty colour. People can quite clearly see if they are better quality or not than the rest of the litter - the pups are all there to see. Why shouldn't I make a little more where I can - breeding is rarely profitable. Often I have a pup or two still waiting to be homed after 8 weeks - and it is almost always a black or red pup - regardless of quality. If people are happy to pay more for the colour they want, then why shouldn't they? If they are foolish enough to not do their research, and end up paying over the top prices for badly bred pups - then they get what they deserve. There is nothing anyone can do about it, except encourage potential owners to research the breed properly before purchasing. So why get so worked up about it? Same goes for the carry on about selling on limited or full register. It does not prevent someone breeding either way, nor does it stop them declaring the pedigree of the pups they produce - just stops them registering them. In my opinion - if someone is going to breed - they will do it regardless of which register the dog is on. Their is more chance of them doing it correctly if they can register the pups, than not. The only way to prevent someone from breeding with your pup is to desex it first. The only reason to put a pup on limited register is if it has a definate breed fault. This would I guess be true for dilute staffies, but while the standard says that blue is an acceptable colour - then this will always be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TessiesTracey Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I so hate these threads. I know in my breed dilutes are acceptable and in staffords they are not. But quite frankly that is not the point. I think it's partly the point. Dilute colours in breeds can be associated with other health problems too. Black dilution (i.e. resulting in blue) in Staffords, particularly the blue's can create havoc with the nice 'dark' eye required by the standard. I don't have a problem with blue's, not particularly my cup of tea, but providing they are good & healthy examples of the breed, go for it. Even if some do pay over the odds for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 My feeling is that if you let Joe Q think it is normal to pay "above the order" for something that is incorrect, uncommon, rare, unusual or whatever that gives the "average" Joe Q a good old-fashioned mixed message that if HE breeds something along the same lines that he can start raking in the $$$$ for those animals as well. And that clearly isn't what it is about. All colours should be the same price and colours which don't conform to a breed standard should be clearly and honestly sold as being exactly that. In many ways it is the breeders who have caused this problem and I for one don't know how the heck they're going to fix it. Especially as for as long as I have been involved in Staffords, many have tried to breed the "perfect" blue and none have thus far succeeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tammytornado95 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Just let your friends know there are no 'rare' colours in Staffords, they shouldn't pay more for any colour. Stay clear of such 'breeders'. There are plenty of good breeders out there, best usually to go through your local breed club, get the number of the secretary and she/he should know which responsible members have puppies or are expecting them. Ref the breeding and silly money for blues it's much worse in the UK - how or why people pay the money and are taken in by the whole issue is beyond belief they are normally advertised as rare and yet there are hundreds and hundreds of ads for them, most it has to said bare little resemblance to what a Stafford should look like. As with any breed, research, research research and then make an informed decision. Good luck with your search, it's a truely wonderful breed and there is no other dog I want on the end of my bed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeckoTree Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 (edited) Heck if all these blues are not so rare imagen the future when brindle and reds become the minority! lol go put 3 grand on em. Why not make a coin. no one needs be a breed martyr. Edited December 29, 2009 by GeckoTree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 If you want to look at it like then, "technically" it'd be fair to say that quality reds are "rarer" than blue in Australia now as it is....definitely much easier to purchase a blue than a red, BYBers or not. There will however, ALWAYS be brindle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centitout Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 So how do we go in my breed,where liver nosed reds are classed the same way blue staffords are.?Some dont like them, a lot of people that came to see mine liked them better than the black/tan,but i certaintly dont charge any more for them,and i dont consider them "vermin" either.I also wouldnt go out of my way to breed that colour,for the sake of colour,same as i wouldnt for predominate black or liver/tan,but if 1 or 2 pop up,so be it. They are registered as red,which is an allowable colour,this is after numerous emails to Dogsnsw,speaking to 2 other breeders that have been around a long time as well.Standards all say red,black/tan and liver tan,if they have a black mantle/saddle and eye rims-then they have to have a black nose.As long as it isnt a washed out colour,it is not a fault . There is no issue health wise,unlike some blue dogs which can have skin issues (yes have seen several badly affected BYB dogs from a few breeds with really bad problems,and the vets all agreed something to do with the colour). The best bitch from both these litters is liver nosed red,so she will be registered and shown as a red,if the judges dont put her up because of colour etc ,then that is their choice.An uphill battle i know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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