Tube Feeding

[MissMonaro]

I have never tube fed a litter either. To be honest, yes I felt very uneasy about it. After having hand fed birds and seeing one die in seconds of food going in the wrong place I guess has made the whole idea of it very nerve wracking.

With this litter I have at the moment, I have spent quite a bit of reading about tube feeding on the net and also reasons for and against it.

Last night I was given a crash lesson......all be it a little too late to save our pup - but I now have a tube on hand should the need ever arise.

The 4 pups I have just lost.....some nursed on mum, some didnt nurse at all. We bottle fed the two that werent feeding - yet they would suck on a bottle, tried to put them back on mum, and nope. Then the other two also werent gaining weight despite appearing to be suckling. So we took over bottle feeding them too, and have now just lost them.

Like Ellz said, the mother was toileting them and looking after them, so we thought they were viable. If the bitch pushes the pup away, then as hard as it is, I would need to not interfere (not that we have had that happen in a litter.....yet).

However, in hindsight, I look at this and think - maybe there was something wrong with them - maybe me interfering was only prolonging the inevitable. They were premmie, but maybe they were actually more premature than we thought.

:D

Edited December 24, 2009 by MissMonaro

[Jed]

You can top up the pups with tube feeds, if you need to, as you would with a bottle. I've fed pups for a few days which have slipped behind for whatever reason, and they have gone back on to the mother with no problems. I've had a few which needed a little extra for a while, and I've had some which were fully tube fed.

Sometimes I've fed pups which haven't been viable, and I've been regretful that I have prolonged their lives, but conversely, I've fed pups which wouldn't have survived without supplementary or complete hand feeding, which have grown and thrived, and gone on to be healthy adults.

It's not in me to walk away from, or pts, what appears to be a healthy pup which is struggling a bit. I couldn't sleep at night worrying that I had let one die. You can tell pretty soon that some pups are not destined to live, but you can't tell with all of them. If I can't tell, I take the optimistic view.

Everyone has to make the call as they see it, at that moment. There is no one else.

Sorry to hear about your pups, MM. It's never good.

Edited December 25, 2009 by Jed

[JAG]

How does everyone heat up the formula before tubing?

[Ashanali]

I have only had to tube feed one pup. It was a cocker litter of my mums when I was 15 years old. There were 2 pups in the litter and one by one they dropped off (fading puppy syndrome). They were strong fat pups who were feeding well then over a couple of hours they just got weak and died. Scarlet was the only one that we were able to save and that's because mum made the decision to start tube feeding her before she weakened. She was completely taken off the mother at four days old and hand raised.

She ended up a normal and healthy dog.

After that experience, if I had a litter who just weren't thriving from the outset, I wouldn't tube feed - I would be more inclined to pts. However if there was a litter that started strong but started to weaken, I would be willing to tube feed and see what happens (providing that there wasn't a major underlying health problem).

Tube feeding doesn't bother me or scare me. I'd just rather not do it. I'd have to be pretty sure that I'm not trying to save a puppy that's going to die later anyway. It's too heartbreaking.

[~Midniara~]

I don't know how to tube feed but I feel I have no need to learn.

If a puppy isn't strong enough to fend for itself then I will not help it. I know it sounds cruel but I truly believe that that pup just wasn't meant to be. I understand that others don't agree but that is how it is in this household.

[WreckitWhippet]

I don't know how to tube feed but I feel I have no need to learn.

If a puppy isn't strong enough to fend for itself then I will not help it. I know it sounds cruel but I truly believe that that pup just wasn't meant to be. I understand that others don't agree but that is how it is in this household.

You feel no need and I wish I hadn't.

I now just keep my hands behind my back and whatever happens will happen. I believe that intervention weakens the subsequent generations and I feel the same about c-sections.

I want bitches that free whelp and do it with ease, I want strong pups that suckle well and thrive.

[SwaY]

How does everyone heat up the formula before tubing?

I make up one small batch.

From that i pour out what i need into something else - it's still warm from being made.

The rest goes in the fridge - has 24hr life.

I pour out what i want from that and reheat in a container over hot water.

Never reheating the same milk over and over again.

[SwaY]

There is intervention and then intervention - as a breeder you need to know when where YOU will stop.

[fifi]

I don't tube feed either. If a pup/litter I'm sitting or at work cannot take to a variety of teats / hole sizes offered for bottle feeding if needed, or respond quickly to a syringe teat, then I've found there is usually something wrong anyway.

Its just my 'line in the sand' and I've very rarely not been able to get a pup/kitten/roo ect to take to the kind of teat its comfy with - if the neonate is healthy.

Just hand raised a foster kitten, she HATED the teat and was being kept alive on a 1ml syringe used as a dropper. I found a tiny marsupial teat and put it on a 10ml syringe, enlarged the hole, and she went berserk !!

fifi

Edited December 26, 2009 by fifi

[Christina]

I don't do it because quite simply I don't know how. Would not be happy learning from a video but would try if my vet showed me how & it was needed, which depends on the circumstances at the time really.

I would be nervous but if it saves a viable life fine.

Syringed & bottle fed a puppy which died at 17 days, never put weight on so something bad wrong but success with a kitten born at 50 grammes, sinking fast & no interest in food from mum. 2 others died & 2 were fine & fed. Fed hourly for 3 days 24/7 & then 2 hourly for 3 days 24/7 so knowing how to tube feed would have been less exhausting on us both I guess. Lack of sleep was awful.

She is a beautiful 4 years old now, no health problems & lives with me.

My precious girl was so worth it

[Darkrai]

I learnt how to Tube feed with our last litter, and when and If the time come again and pups need to tube feed then I'll do it again. The pup I fed for 3days was more of a top-up as he could suckle but he was also fading, the larger pups would push him away. After 3 days he picked up and could fend a bit better for himself.

The only time I wont stnad in is if there is no way of helping the pup, we as humans would do the same to child/baby, why should not a defenceless little life be given such shame or shunned.

We have the choice to give life and take it away.

[JAG]

Thanks Sway. I do the same thing I have had both success and failure with the tube feeding. I will do it if it is required - I just don't enjoy it. Always worry too much.

[~Midniara~]

I don't know how to tube feed but I feel I have no need to learn.

If a puppy isn't strong enough to fend for itself then I will not help it. I know it sounds cruel but I truly believe that that pup just wasn't meant to be. I understand that others don't agree but that is how it is in this household.

You feel no need and I wish I hadn't.

I now just keep my hands behind my back and whatever happens will happen. I believe that intervention weakens the subsequent generations and I feel the same about c-sections.

I want bitches that free whelp and do it with ease, I want strong pups that suckle well and thrive.

You've put into words exactly what I was trying to express.

You learned from experience that it didn't work and I've learned from watching such heartache similar to what you have experienced.

Edited December 26, 2009 by ~Midniara~

[Rysup]

I use it more as a time saving device rather than miracle worker. When you have a large litter you want to supplement or a litter to hand raise, time is always precious, and its so much faster to tube feed.

I heat mine up in a cup of hot water.

[Lowenhart]

I forgot completely about this topic but just for the record want to say -

There are instances of puppies who are unable to suckle normally. I know of a few in my breed. A couple of famous dogs were tube feed entirely until weaning not because of sick mothers, no milk, lost mothers or too many puppies but because they were unable to hold a teat.

I do not want that to become "normal" for the breed, yet people continue to raise these puppies and use them in breeding programs.

Not all tube fed pups are unable to suck, I know this. But I have set my line of intervention, which does not include tube feeding. Maybe it will change in a dire and horrendous situation, but as of now that is where it stands.

[ellz]

Yep, the old "line in the sand" is the biggie. I guess it also corresponds directly with the other topic I raised.

So...what is your particular "line in the sand"?

Mine is when the mother loses interest. I go by the old saying "Mother Knows Best". The minute a pup is ignored, or for that matter I have to KEEP rescuing it from under mum, or littermates, or it keeps having bedding or newspaper placed on top of it then that is my "line in the sand time" and I have to make the choice of whether to allow the puppy to die "naturally" or with a little help from the vet. I confess that I've never yet been able to let one just slip away, unless it has happened in the middle of the night, or when my back was turned, every time I've made a judgement call, I've had the puppy euthanased.

I'm happy to top up a large litter and was fully expecting to have to do so with my current litter of 9, (considering that mum only has 8.5 teats and of those 8.5, only 7 are functional), but artful plugging in and rotating puppies was successful this time. A couple of other litters I've had in the past it wouldn't have worked on because the bitches have been very puppy-proud and if you plug them into one teat and isn't the RIGHT teat, they will fuss and carry on until THEY have put it right again. I've really enjoyed the cruisey, easy-going nature of this particular first-time mum. She has made the litter a delight.

It still amazes me that I could have such an easy run with this litter of 9, yet such a nightmare with the Yank litter. Just goes to show, Mother Nature can be a contrary old bird!

[blacklabrador]

Like Ellz said, the mother was toileting them and looking after them, so we thought they were viable. If the bitch pushes the pup away, then as hard as it is, I would need to not interfere (not that we have had that happen in a litter.....yet).

After watching my bitch repeatedly accept a pup who was clearly brain damaged (very odd posture), was growing colder by the moment and was on the way out I don't really trust maternal instinct 100%. She kept trying to get this pup to feed when it clearly was too weak and within an hour of dying. IT seemed to know it was dying and kept crawling away from the warmth of the other pups and the heat lamp.

[ellz]

Like Ellz said, the mother was toileting them and looking after them, so we thought they were viable. If the bitch pushes the pup away, then as hard as it is, I would need to not interfere (not that we have had that happen in a litter.....yet).

After watching my bitch repeatedly accept a pup who was clearly brain damaged (very odd posture), was growing colder by the moment and was on the way out I don't really trust maternal instinct 100%. She kept trying to get this pup to feed when it clearly was too weak and within an hour of dying. IT seemed to know it was dying and kept crawling away from the warmth of the other pups and the heat lamp.

But see that's the difference, the puppy knew something was wrong, and by observing the puppy, you in turn could see that something was amiss and for me, that would have been enough of a cue to act. If a puppy is clearly brain damaged, then it would get its wings. And again, that's Mother Nature talking. Mothers have been known to be wrong, or we wouldn't lose puppies that we had worked hard to save. But all things being equal, if there were enough signs from the puppy, then that too is enough to make a decision. I would never bother even attempting to tube feed a puppy such as you have mentioned. It is an exercise doomed for failure. But again, that would be "my line in the sand".

In the case of my puppy, she was fighting hard. She was doing her best to suckle, assisted by her mother. She was warm. She was pretty much doing everything she should have been by way of behaviour for a very young whelp (growling, defacting and urinating etc etc) and for the first 3 weeks really didn't look much different to her littermate, just smaller. It was only at 3 weeks when I pulled the pin and gave her her wings that it was apparent that she had, as the vet said, hit the wall.

[blacklabrador]

Like Ellz said, the mother was toileting them and looking after them, so we thought they were viable. If the bitch pushes the pup away, then as hard as it is, I would need to not interfere (not that we have had that happen in a litter.....yet).

After watching my bitch repeatedly accept a pup who was clearly brain damaged (very odd posture), was growing colder by the moment and was on the way out I don't really trust maternal instinct 100%. She kept trying to get this pup to feed when it clearly was too weak and within an hour of dying. IT seemed to know it was dying and kept crawling away from the warmth of the other pups and the heat lamp.

But see that's the difference, the puppy knew something was wrong, and by observing the puppy, you in turn could see that something was amiss and for me, that would have been enough of a cue to act. If a puppy is clearly brain damaged, then it would get its wings. And again, that's Mother Nature talking. Mothers have been known to be wrong, or we wouldn't lose puppies that we had worked hard to save. But all things being equal, if there were enough signs from the puppy, then that too is enough to make a decision. I would never bother even attempting to tube feed a puppy such as you have mentioned. It is an exercise doomed for failure. But again, that would be "my line in the sand".

In the case of my puppy, she was fighting hard. She was doing her best to suckle, assisted by her mother. She was warm. She was pretty much doing everything she should have been by way of behaviour for a very young whelp (growling, defacting and urinating etc etc) and for the first 3 weeks really didn't look much different to her littermate, just smaller. It was only at 3 weeks when I pulled the pin and gave her her wings that it was apparent that she had, as the vet said, hit the wall.

Yep I knew in my heart but held out hope that she'd be okay. I think two days of no sleep meant that I wasn't thinking clearly. I kept remembering that she'd passed a vet check only hours before and watching her mother try to get her to feed. I did bottle feed her but her suck was uncoordinated and weak. She died 11 hours after birth which was the best thing to happen.

I think experience tells you when it's time to let go. This was my first litter and I just wanted every precioius puppy to live. Even as an experienced breeder, Ellz I think it would be terribly difficult to nuture a pup for 3 weeks and then have to PTS. I don't think the tube feeding argument is as black and white as some made out.

[ellz]

Like Ellz said, the mother was toileting them and looking after them, so we thought they were viable. If the bitch pushes the pup away, then as hard as it is, I would need to not interfere (not that we have had that happen in a litter.....yet).

After watching my bitch repeatedly accept a pup who was clearly brain damaged (very odd posture), was growing colder by the moment and was on the way out I don't really trust maternal instinct 100%. She kept trying to get this pup to feed when it clearly was too weak and within an hour of dying. IT seemed to know it was dying and kept crawling away from the warmth of the other pups and the heat lamp.

But see that's the difference, the puppy knew something was wrong, and by observing the puppy, you in turn could see that something was amiss and for me, that would have been enough of a cue to act. If a puppy is clearly brain damaged, then it would get its wings. And again, that's Mother Nature talking. Mothers have been known to be wrong, or we wouldn't lose puppies that we had worked hard to save. But all things being equal, if there were enough signs from the puppy, then that too is enough to make a decision. I would never bother even attempting to tube feed a puppy such as you have mentioned. It is an exercise doomed for failure. But again, that would be "my line in the sand".

In the case of my puppy, she was fighting hard. She was doing her best to suckle, assisted by her mother. She was warm. She was pretty much doing everything she should have been by way of behaviour for a very young whelp (growling, defacting and urinating etc etc) and for the first 3 weeks really didn't look much different to her littermate, just smaller. It was only at 3 weeks when I pulled the pin and gave her her wings that it was apparent that she had, as the vet said, hit the wall.

Yep I knew in my heart but held out hope that she'd be okay. I think two days of no sleep meant that I wasn't thinking clearly. I kept remembering that she'd passed a vet check only hours before and watching her mother try to get her to feed. I did bottle feed her but her suck was uncoordinated and weak. She died 11 hours after birth which was the best thing to happen.

I think experience tells you when it's time to let go. This was my first litter and I just wanted every precioius puppy to live. Even as an experienced breeder, Ellz I think it would be terribly difficult to nuture a pup for 3 weeks and then have to PTS. I don't think the tube feeding argument is as black and white as some made out.

It was heartbreaking Pblab. It doesn't matter how many litters you breed or how many tragedies or successes you have, the slate is wiped clean each and every time. Every puppy is a true gift and life is precious no matter what the circumstances. Every living thing deserves the right to life, it's just sometimes we have to make those awful judgement calls. And I guess what is clear in this thread is that each of us has our own limits.

There is no right or wrong. We all have to be able to live with ourselves and our judgement calls. The important thing is that everybody should understand that not everybody would act the same as them and that doesn't make them any less a person or worse a breeder.