> When Dog Is Not Interested In Food, Pats Or Toy As Reward?

[Beaglelover:)]

It is very rare that I come across this, but a friend asked for some help on how to choose the right reward for training her dog when the dog clearly hasnt got any motivation for food, verbal praise, pats or toys.

The dog is a very fussy eater as a result of eating human food:rolleyes: and will not go near any dog treats. She has tried warmed chicken etc for food rewards but the dog doesnt seem to interested.

When I say interested, the dog will eat it,but in dog training from my knowledge it should be of highest value to the dog and something the dog wants to work for.

She just wants to do the basics of sit, stay, down etc, and the reward needs to be readily available and easy to use. I have told her that the reward must only come out when in training.

Is there anything out there that is irresistible for dogs or any training secrets that have worked for a fussy eater, that isnt too hard to prepare and can be easy to handle ? I am sure the dog will work for raw meat etc, however that is quite messy.

Any tips or tricks would be great!!

[Guest Ams]

She could address the fussy eating bit first and teach the dog it is a dog and human food is not on the menu... OR

try little cubes of cheese and devon or dog roll. You can freeze it so it lasts longer during the training session.

With only the info provided it does sound as if the dog doesn't have NILIF - it doesn't have to work for anything not attention, praise or food.. it just gets it. Maybe try instilling NILIF too. Most dogs HATE being ignored for extended periods as in no eye contact, no pats, no couch priviledges.. (sp?) etc.

NILIF = nothing in life is free.... the dog MUST do something you want it to do in order for it to do or get something it wants.

[persephone]

Good post, ams!

Sounds like this dog has no need to exert itself for anything yet

[Teebs]

NILF didnt work for Atlas he doenst give a shit, want to go out? No, wont do anything for it... ok, well he just goes back to bed, never seen a dog hold his bladder as long as Atlas does :D

I use water with Kaos, or a pat, she has NO interest in food when we are out and about, never had any food at obedience, but give her a little pat or a squirt with the water pistol and she is over the moon1

[Erny]

Follow the "TOT" program (pinned to this forum).

[Beaglelover:)]

She could address the fussy eating bit first and teach the dog it is a dog and human food is not on the menu... OR

try little cubes of cheese and devon or dog roll. You can freeze it so it lasts longer during the training session.

With only the info provided it does sound as if the dog doesn't have NILIF - it doesn't have to work for anything not attention, praise or food.. it just gets it. Maybe try instilling NILIF too. Most dogs HATE being ignored for extended periods as in no eye contact, no pats, no couch priviledges.. (sp?) etc.

NILIF = nothing in life is free.... the dog MUST do something you want it to do in order for it to do or get something it wants.

Ok thanks I will get her to try the cheese and devon :D Yes, I have gone through the whole "nothing is for free"...still working on it

[Vickie]

I had a fussy dog once. After a few days without food, he suddenly became less fussy ...never had a problem with him since.

[Beaglelover:)]

I had a fussy dog once. After a few days without food, he suddenly became less fussy :D ...never had a problem with him since.

Yes, this is my thinking too, very hard to convince my friend though !!

I have stated in the general forum that the dog should only be fed its daily meal in training, what do you think? I am currently getting feedback in the other forum too.

[Aidan]

A dog does not have to "appear" to be highly motivated by a reward. All that is important is that we get more of the responses that have been reinforced.

One approach that can work quite well if responses are not being reinforced with food is to reduce TOTAL RATIONS (which includes training treats) by around 20% for a 2 week period while training using short, frequent sessions every day. If people can find time for at least 2 x 5min training sessions every day as a minimum (the more the merrier), this approach can teach a dog to be more grateful for food and that it is something to be worked for (it is unnatural not to work for food).

Attention to the dog's bodyweight should be paid, including a starting weight. There should be some weight loss, but nothing excessive. It's easy to underestimate how many calories per day a dog has been used to getting. Let common sense prevail, and consult a vet if necessary.

If reduced rations are held for too long the dog will adapt to lower energy intake, so 2 weeks is about long enough to maintain this program.

[tiki]

A dog does not have to "appear" to be highly motivated by a reward. All that is important is that we get more of the responses that have been reinforced.

One approach that can work quite well if responses are not being reinforced with food is to reduce TOTAL RATIONS (which includes training treats) by around 20% for a 2 week period while training using short, frequent sessions every day. If people can find time for at least 2 x 5min training sessions every day as a minimum (the more the merrier), this approach can teach a dog to be more grateful for food and that it is something to be worked for (it is unnatural not to work for food).

Attention to the dog's bodyweight should be paid, including a starting weight. There should be some weight loss, but nothing excessive. It's easy to underestimate how many calories per day a dog has been used to getting. Let common sense prevail, and consult a vet if necessary.

If reduced rations are held for too long the dog will adapt to lower energy intake, so 2 weeks is about long enough to maintain this program.

I have a dog that is totally not food motivated for reward training etc....

its a bit gross smelling..BUT...buy a liver from butcher,boil with garlic[for smell..yumm] when it seems cooked,,sometimes bit hard to tell but you'll soon figure it out,leave to go completly cold in the liquid. Then cut up either into small bits for instant rewards or bit larger bits-which is what i use,he licks it while i'm holding it and then when he's got the lesson downpat he gets the whole piece...it works every time now......takes a bit of fiddling around but really worth it in the end...wont hurt to at least try it you never know....cheers and good luck. let us know how you get on...need more explicit instructions send me an email

Edited December 27, 2009 by tiki

[Beaglelover:)]

A dog does not have to "appear" to be highly motivated by a reward. All that is important is that we get more of the responses that have been reinforced.

One approach that can work quite well if responses are not being reinforced with food is to reduce TOTAL RATIONS (which includes training treats) by around 20% for a 2 week period while training using short, frequent sessions every day. If people can find time for at least 2 x 5min training sessions every day as a minimum (the more the merrier), this approach can teach a dog to be more grateful for food and that it is something to be worked for (it is unnatural not to work for food).

Attention to the dog's bodyweight should be paid, including a starting weight. There should be some weight loss, but nothing excessive. It's easy to underestimate how many calories per day a dog has been used to getting. Let common sense prevail, and consult a vet if necessary.

If reduced rations are held for too long the dog will adapt to lower energy intake, so 2 weeks is about long enough to maintain this program.

I have a dog that is totally not food motivated for reward training etc....

its a bit gross smelling..BUT...buy a liver from butcher,boil with garlic[for smell..yumm] when it seems cooked,,sometimes bit hard to tell but you'll soon figure it out,leave to go completly cold in the liquid. Then cut up either into small bits for instant rewards or bit larger bits-which is what i use,he licks it while i'm holding it and then when he's got the lesson downpat he gets the whole piece...it works every time now......takes a bit of fiddling around but really worth it in the end...wont hurt to at least try it you never know....cheers and good luck. let us know how you get on...need more explicit instructions send me an email

Thanks, I will give it a go!!

[speedy2]

A dog does not have to "appear" to be highly motivated by a reward. All that is important is that we get more of the responses that have been reinforced.

One approach that can work quite well if responses are not being reinforced with food is to reduce TOTAL RATIONS (which includes training treats) by around 20% for a 2 week period while training using short, frequent sessions every day. If people can find time for at least 2 x 5min training sessions every day as a minimum (the more the merrier), this approach can teach a dog to be more grateful for food and that it is something to be worked for (it is unnatural not to work for food).

I've seen a couple of dogs that will not work for anything ... and the suggestion has been made to starve them until they will work for food. The type of suggestions I see here.

Does anyone have a problem with this? To me the basics of survival - food, water, shelter, affection - should be a given, and should not be contingent upon a straighter sit, or all the weavers done, or whatever.

Sure, if it's a case of the dog's survival to learn this, then starve it.

However, if it's just an exercise ... then find the most wonderful toy and limit acess to it, or reward the dog with walks. Or give up and enjoy the dog for itself.

I'm now expecting lots of flak <smile>.

[Nannas]

I've seen a couple of dogs that will not work for anything ... and the suggestion has been made to starve them until they will work for food. The type of suggestions I see here.

Does anyone have a problem with this? To me the basics of survival - food, water, shelter, affection - should be a given, and should not be contingent upon a straighter sit, or all the weavers done, or whatever.

Sure, if it's a case of the dog's survival to learn this, then starve it.

However, if it's just an exercise ... then find the most wonderful toy and limit acess to it, or reward the dog with walks. Or give up and enjoy the dog for itself.

I'm now expecting lots of flak <smile>.

I have to agree with you.

So many other issues could begin and make things worse.

A hungry dog isn't a happy dog.

I guess people who really know what they are doing (as far as training etc) could manage this without side effects but I doubt it would be a good thing for everyone to try without supervision.

I couldn't do it..LOL My outside dog has a metal feed dish and when she is hungry she holds it in her mouth and bangs it on the cement back step. She will also do it if she needs water etc.

I used to have an abused dog that wasn't interested in anything much. The light had just left his heart BUT if you sqeaked a sqeaky toy, he was in heaven!!! If you gave it to him he would race around with it in his mouth sqeaking it. (we took it off him at night or at 4 am you would wake to "squeak, squeak, squeak")

[huski]

I've seen a couple of dogs that will not work for anything ... and the suggestion has been made to starve them until they will work for food. The type of suggestions I see here.

Does anyone have a problem with this? To me the basics of survival - food, water, shelter, affection - should be a given, and should not be contingent upon a straighter sit, or all the weavers done, or whatever.

Sure, if it's a case of the dog's survival to learn this, then starve it.

However, if it's just an exercise ... then find the most wonderful toy and limit acess to it, or reward the dog with walks. Or give up and enjoy the dog for itself.

I'm now expecting lots of flak <smile>.

I don't see fasting a dog for a meal or two or decreasing the amount in their food, so you can then feed them their meal through training, as a bad thing at all.

It's normal and healthy for a dog to fast.

I'd like to know how rewarding a dog with a walk is going to work when you're free shaping, or doing heel work, or really any number of obedience exercises? What if the dog is not motivated by toys?

A hungry dog isn't a happy dog.

LOL - what do you mean? Have you ever had an insanely food driven dog who is always hungry? What an odd thing to say. I guess my dog is never "happy"

Edited January 3, 2010 by huski

[corvus]

I just came back from a holiday with my partner's parents, and their little Min Pin, Alex, won't work for anything, really. After watching him for a week I came to suspect that his problem was not a lack of motivation, but downright fear of putting a foot wrong. He is interested in a lot of things, but most of the time he gets shouted at for showing interest in things. His owners are not thugs. They love him and try very hard to get him engaged in activities they approve of, but they just don't understand that with some dogs you can't shout at them for looking sideways at the people food one moment and then expect them to work enthusiastically for the people food the next moment. He's got a sense of when people food is not off limits, and that is when no one is looking at him, mostly. They have had Boxers most of their lives and are not used to highly strung, delicate little lap dogs.

Alex also likes squeaky toys, but is too anxious to play with anyone. I think he would come 'round if his people stopped accidentally frightening him, quit the shouting, and spent some time just rewarding him for doing pretty much anything they were okay with him doing.

ETA I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with fasting a dog, but I'd rather make sure there were no other underlying reasons for the lack in motivation first. I think it would be a bit mean to fast Alex, for example. It might result in him overcoming his fear of putting a foot wrong, but why push a scared dog so far? I'd rather baby them along and build up their confidence rather than push them into doing something they don't want to do.

Besides which, Alex routinely goes two days without eating. It doesn't seem to increase his motivation for food, but he gets pancreatitis, so maybe his disinterest in food is related to how gurgly is digestive track is.

Edited January 3, 2010 by corvus

[Beaglelover:)]

A dog does not have to "appear" to be highly motivated by a reward. All that is important is that we get more of the responses that have been reinforced.

One approach that can work quite well if responses are not being reinforced with food is to reduce TOTAL RATIONS (which includes training treats) by around 20% for a 2 week period while training using short, frequent sessions every day. If people can find time for at least 2 x 5min training sessions every day as a minimum (the more the merrier), this approach can teach a dog to be more grateful for food and that it is something to be worked for (it is unnatural not to work for food).

Attention to the dog's bodyweight should be paid, including a starting weight. There should be some weight loss, but nothing excessive. It's easy to underestimate how many calories per day a dog has been used to getting. Let common sense prevail, and consult a vet if necessary.

If reduced rations are held for too long the dog will adapt to lower energy intake, so 2 weeks is about long enough to maintain this program.

I have a dog that is totally not food motivated for reward training etc....

its a bit gross smelling..BUT...buy a liver from butcher,boil with garlic[for smell..yumm] when it seems cooked,,sometimes bit hard to tell but you'll soon figure it out,leave to go completly cold in the liquid. Then cut up either into small bits for instant rewards or bit larger bits-which is what i use,he licks it while i'm holding it and then when he's got the lesson downpat he gets the whole piece...it works every time now......takes a bit of fiddling around but really worth it in the end...wont hurt to at least try it you never know....cheers and good luck. let us know how you get on...need more explicit instructions send me an email

Thanks, I will give it a go!!

No... friend said that is a little bit too much trouble. I was thinking... she is using cheese and that is working ok, however being dairy does this harm the dog, if only being trained twice a day for 10 mins?

Just in general is cheese ok for dogs?

[Aidan]

No... friend said that is a little bit too much trouble. I was thinking... she is using cheese and that is working ok, however being dairy does this harm the dog, if only being trained twice a day for 10 mins?

Just in general is cheese ok for dogs?

Sorry, I couldn't tell whether you were replying to myself or Tiki?

Cheese is generally OK for dogs in small quantities. Too much lactose will cause problems, though. The fat can be an issue if the dog is overweight or suffers from pancreatitis.

You can use very small cubes of cheese, and mix it in with other treats at whatever ratio keeps the dog working for it.

[Aidan]

One approach that can work quite well if responses are not being reinforced with food is to reduce TOTAL RATIONS (which includes training treats) by around 20% for a 2 week period while training using short, frequent sessions every day. If people can find time for at least 2 x 5min training sessions every day as a minimum (the more the merrier), this approach can teach a dog to be more grateful for food and that it is something to be worked for (it is unnatural not to work for food).

I've seen a couple of dogs that will not work for anything ... and the suggestion has been made to starve them until they will work for food. The type of suggestions I see here.

Reducing rations by 20% for a 2 week period is tantamount to starving an animal in your view? If you ate 2000 calories per day, it would be the equivalent of skipping a muffin and not having sugar in your coffee

It's not even close to what a wolf (for e.g) would regularly encounter at different times throughout the year, in fact actual starvation is closer to what a wolf would encounter in the wild - a 100% reduction in calories for several days at a time.

Does anyone have a problem with this? To me the basics of survival - food, water, shelter, affection - should be a given, and should not be contingent upon a straighter sit, or all the weavers done, or whatever.

A different perspective for you - every single creature on this planet has evolved to work, in some capacity, for food, water, shelter and even affection. It is actually highly UNnatural for a dog to get food for free.

I would be very unhealthy and unhappy if I didn't have to work for the things I want or need. If I had no reason to get out of bed, why should I?

Edited January 3, 2010 by Aidan

[MonElite]

IMHO rather then upping the rewards Id elimitate the food first, or the dog will start turning its nose on the cheese as well, in no time.

Remove petting, remove play, let the dog miss it and want it.

If that doesnt help then there is always a possiblity of training the dog with avoidance of correction. Not what I would ever want to do, but an option.