Ashanali Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Bear with me while I explain all this, there is a point... I have been doing a lot of thinking about my photography business lately. We are growing when there is a downturn towards the sort of services that we offer (mid-high range wedding and portait photography). There is a growing distrust among members of the public in regards to photography. Nowadays anyone can go and buy a digital SLR camera and take photos and call themselves professional and unfortunately it's happening on a very wide scale - There was a person who joined a forum I'm on and she announced, "My husband bought me my first camera last week and my friends all love my photos. I've decided to become a photographer, this is a link to my new website, book in asap" . People like this are eroding and devaluing the photography industry and it's making polished professional photographers (like us) have to work a whole lot harder to justify why they charge what they do. Because of all the new 'undisciplined photographers' joining the industry, we are now saturated by people who try to make us feel ashamed of what we charge. Quite frankly, they think we only work when we shoot photos but that's about 10% of it. We spend hours proofing, editing and adjusting their images but because time is intangible, they just don't comprehend it. They also don't comprehend that Uncle Bob down the street can take a photo, and I can take a photo of the same subject but because I've worked hard and understand all the elements that go into creating a good image, I'm going to charge a heap more... because they are paying from my skill and education, not because I can press a button. So while we are building our business, I have stumbled across some great online blogs that talk about photography and the costs involved and then it poses the big question, "Why do we feel guilty about earning money?" I have put this in here because I started thinking about it in terms of dog breeding. Replace the term 'photography' with 'dog breeding' and 'photographer' with 'dog breeder' and 'photos' with 'dogs'. Now I ask the question again (and I know breeding for the majority of ethical breeders is a hobby and not a business), why do ETHICAL breeders feel guilty if they might happen to earn a profit? I KNOW there are a number of breeders out there who have free whelping bitches of popular breeds that have large litters and they price the dogs accordingly... so why should they feel bad that they might make a tiny bit of cash out of their hobby? Isn't it deserved for all their hard work and knowledge that they have put into their breeding? This is just a little food for thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) Speaking for myself, on the rare occasions I have broken even or ended up with a profit (however big or small), I've felt guilty because it seems that people think that if you manage to come out without finding yourself in the red, you have taken shortcuts. This litter of 9 that I have here currently will be the first that I'll have actually made anything even resembling a "decent" profit and it won't even be as large is it could have been when I take into account: a) stud fee b) ultrasound, xray and pre-whelping medical costs and supplementary feeding c) after hours c-section d) feeding 9 hungry hippos e) vaccinations f) microchipping g) vaccinations and worming (added twice because they're staying until 12 weeks) h) registration with TCA Inc. The vax and chips alone are going to set me back in the vicinity of $600. Thankfully, I didn't end up having to pay transport costs to and from the stud dog in Melbourne, but if I had, that would have been another almost $800. And no, I'm not complaining. The above is just what is necessary. But if I had only had a litter of say 4, then I would have been well and truly in the red. And considering that I am going to keep 2, possibly 3 of the litter....there still won't be a huge profit margin! I WILL make a profit, and I'm pleased and I'm expecting brickbats from the purists. But heck, I daresay there are many who would be envious! And then on the other hand, there is my American Cocker litter. One puppy survived. I own sire and dam. Vets bills on day 1. Euthanasia at 3 weeks. Feeding, vaccination, microchipping, registration etc. Definitely in the hole on this one. Mr Ellz complaining but I got a nice little bitch out of it so the cycle will continue! Edited December 21, 2009 by ellz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I reckon it's great if you make a profit on a litter.If you haven't cut any corners in any way, good luck to you. In most cases it will be put back into the dogs and even if it isn't, it's no one business but yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozstar Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 If you can have a litter and make a profit well done I have 8 pups here at the moment from 2 litters, both girls had c-section but thankfully my vet is not expensive. I own both the stud dogs used so I don't have that cost. If I don't count in food I will make a small profit ( about $1000) which will be put back into the dogs by doing up my kennels. My main profit is keeping 2 pups (1 from each litter) who will hopefully do me proud in the show ring. To me that means more than any amount of money made. Leanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I'm with Rebanne - if you can make a profit then do so!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashanali Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 But see what you're all doing (and I am guilty of it too) As soon as a potential profit is mentioned, people automatically attempt to justify it. I think that as ethical breeders we should be able to say, "I did everything right by my dogs, I set a price and people paid it. I'm happy and I'm not ashamed that I made a small profit." That's it - no need to discuss the failures that have happened in the past that make you feel better about making a small amount this time around. No need for guilt. If you have done everything right and tested and studied the pedigrees and the health of your dogs, you shouldn't have to feel guilty if people pay you for your effort and your knowledge. YES, I think it's wrong that there are farms and BYB out there who have no idea what they are doing who are profiting from dog breeding but I still don't see why the ethical breeders should ever feel the need to justify the times a litter might turn a profit. Do BYB and puppy farms ever justify themselves? In an ideal world it should be the other way around - they should be justifying their methods and breeders should be guilt free. Anyway, I'm going to go watch a movie now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoL Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I spose it's because we associaate profit making with backyard breeders and farmers who stand for everything we detest, ergo the need to justify ourselves if we break even or make a little extra. Speaking personally, we try and take so much time and effort to ensure the best possible match to produce the best possible pups to promote the breed, we go through hardship, tragedy, effort, blood, sweat and tears and they do NOTHING except put dog with bitch repeatedly and because of their high production numbers, charge less for crap which of course the unsuspecting public know nothing about so they in turn expect that price to be the rule and ours to be the exception without realising the lengths we go to. I would be devestated if someone used my name and the word byb or farmer in the same breath so yes, I would probably justify myself too. Yes it sucks, adn no it probably won't change, but in the great words of Ned, such is life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 If you can make some money and not cut corners - Great It's those who cut corners to make money i have issues with. I guess people try to justify it to show it wasn't all about the money. We all know if you make something it's spent on the dogs any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whippets Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 You may make a profit with the litter but in the long run I bet you'll find that the money you made is injected back into your dogs upkeep/showing etc........and then some Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I no longer worry about it, if I make some, good for me. I know I've done the right thing, my bitches and pups want for nothing and get the best of care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I would never feel guilty if I made a profit from breeding. But sadly I dont! Maybe one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) I'm with Rebanne - if you can make a profit then do so!!! I doubt that very many breeders, even those claiming to 'make a profit', would be operating in the black if they costed the time they put in at minimum wage (not to mention overtime rates during crisis periods) and accounted for the costs of caring for dogs through the full of their lifespans and the costs of maintaining a dog property. I don't feel at all guilty when I sell 8 pups at $1100+ each and am able to pay off some of the mortgage I've taken on to be able to run a dog property. Nor do I feel guilty breeding to the colour specifications of the 'puppy buyer market' (eg preferred colours) -- as opposed to those of the show ring (which is supposed to be colour neutral within the allowed colours, but isn't). It's some work to cater to what the puppy buyer market wants, cause it almost always requires AI and a lot of sorting through pedigrees and talking to people to make sure that health criteria are at least met, and preferably, exceeded. Being a good breeder is hard work and requires some skill. Nothing wrong for getting some return for hard work and skill, or having income adequate to pay off some of the costs. Edited December 21, 2009 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozstar Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I would love to make enough of a profit one day to be able to buy a new trailer, hydrobath and import seamen (or the whole dog). Hasn't happened yet though Leanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I've had litters where I did well and made a profit. Text book litters with no drama for example. I've had far too many however that barely broke even and too many as well that put me in the red. In the end, the ones where I made a buck or two, only just got me out of the hole that the disaster litters got me into! I don't beleive that we as breeders should be ashamed for being good business people and coming out with a profit. I agree that if we had another business we would not be so PROUD to announce we lost money as we doggie people seem to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I think that as ethical breeders we should be able to say, "I did everything right by my dogs, I set a price and people paid it. I'm happy and I'm not ashamed that I made a small profit." That's it - no need to discuss the failures that have happened in the past that make you feel better about making a small amount this time around. No need for guilt. If you have done everything right and tested and studied the pedigrees and the health of your dogs, you shouldn't have to feel guilty if people pay you for your effort and your knowledge. a profit is a profit big or small, no need to distinguish between them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badboyz Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 You may make a profit with the litter but in the long run I bet you'll find that the money you made is injected back into your dogs upkeep/showing etc........and then some I agree with this statement. I may make a small profit on a litter from mating to homing the pups, but it is not a real profit, if you consider the price of buying, raising, feeding, training, showing, testing, the bitch and possibly the dog also, for their lifetimes. That is why breeding is generally considered a hobby and is not taxable income. That is why only large scale kennels, where everything is purchased in bulk and discounted, so costs are minimal, can ever really make a profit on breeding. I consider any profit on a litter as more of a bonus than an actual profit, for the average hobby breeder. But I do not feel guilty selling the pups I have, as I do feel I have a lot of hard earn knowlege in my chosen breeds and am more than willing to pass that on to my puppy buyers if they choose to take advantage of it. Nor do I feel guilty, as many on here believe I should, if I charge a little more for a more popular colour or sex, or for the a pup I deem superior in a litter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashanali Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 I think that as ethical breeders we should be able to say, "I did everything right by my dogs, I set a price and people paid it. I'm happy and I'm not ashamed that I made a small profit." That's it - no need to discuss the failures that have happened in the past that make you feel better about making a small amount this time around. No need for guilt. If you have done everything right and tested and studied the pedigrees and the health of your dogs, you shouldn't have to feel guilty if people pay you for your effort and your knowledge. a profit is a profit big or small, no need to distinguish between them true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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