Quick Question About Training In Drive

[huski]

Okay thanks Huski, the whole idea of drive training intruiges me, but I have no idea how to recognise it, or how to train it.

ETA I have seen a couple of dogs training in drive posted on here, but haven't yet seen any on how to create it.

It's hard to explain over the net! I was lucky as I went to a K9 Force workshop at the end of 2008 and it really helped me understand it because I got to see it IRL. And Steve is really good at explaining things to more daft people like myself

Drive building as I think Erny noted earlier in the thread is about getting the dog addicted to the game first.

[OSoSwift]

Hmmm as much as seeing K9 force would be great, it is a little far away from me!

I think Lewis would do whatever you asked just because you did! He is a bit of a galah!

Rommi is going really well with clicker but I am always about learning and being open to new things

[huski]

Hmmm as much as seeing K9 force would be great, it is a little far away from me!

I think Lewis would do whatever you asked just because you did! He is a bit of a galah!

Rommi is going really well with clicker but I am always about learning and being open to new things ;)

Yeah there's a bit of a distance between you guys

Daisy's not interested in doing things just because - she'd give you the doggy equivalent of the rude finger But she's very food driven so that makes it easy to motivate her

I've used a clicker in the past but I'm far too unco to get it all going at the right time which is why I now just use the 'yes' marker

[OSoSwift]

Hmmm as much as seeing K9 force would be great, it is a little far away from me!

I think Lewis would do whatever you asked just because you did! He is a bit of a galah!

Rommi is going really well with clicker but I am always about learning and being open to new things ;)

Yeah there's a bit of a distance between you guys

Daisy's not interested in doing things just because - she'd give you the doggy equivalent of the rude finger But she's very food driven so that makes it easy to motivate her

I've used a clicker in the past but I'm far too unco to get it all going at the right time which is why I now just use the 'yes' marker

Yes Rommi needs to see a reason for it and she is quite a pig! - Not something I was expecting from a Whippet and quite likely not on par with a Beagle. Lewis is very food motivated as well, but is very happy to get a love up and a pat as well.

I did speed Rommi's weaving up using a ball on a rope thrown as she was leaving the last weave pole. Worked very well.

I will try and research a little more, but not tonight as my head is wanting to explode, or at least it feels like it wants to!

[corvus]

So the full suit doesn't include ripping apart?

Sorry, my bad for using vernacular that was more dramatic than accurate. I'm sure I read somewhere an extra component of prey drive that came after the kill and involved skinning and eating, but I haven't seen that one included everywhere.

It doesn't really matter about breeding except to acknowledge that the portions of prey drive that many dogs display has been artificially selected.

I don't agree that it's not prey drive being demonstrated when the dogs stop somewhere along that seek, stalk, chase, grab, kill sequence. I think my sighthound courses out of a prey drive motivation. The body language is not play body language. The level of satisfaction she gets from it is deeper than from any form of play.

I think that's fair. To me, it's not the same as play, but it's not the same as prey, either. It gets into one of those shady areas where you would have to know what's going on in the dog's head to know if you've made a false category or a true one. So you could say prey drive is one thing, play drive another, and chasing a lure another, but if you could quantify what the dog was experiencing and test it statistically, you might find that chasing a lure and prey drive are different, or you might find they are the same and dump that differentiation. I'm on the fence, here. Like I said before, I'd like to call them all different things, because I've seen some dogs that are not playing when they chase, but put a rabbit in front of them and they have no interest in it. I can't quite convince myself that it can be prey drive if there's no killing involved. That's what it means to prey on something.

And as you have said (I think?) that prey drive can't be utilised for obedience training, only play drive , then you'd suggest I'm better of not going there with her?

Okay, well, that all depends on whether it's prey drive or not. Let's put it this way. If I had a herder that loved herding more than anything, I would Premack it and use it as a reward in SOME cases, but I wouldn't attempt to use it in obedience, because to let a dog herd something it takes a little time, so would interrupt your training sessions, and might act as a jackpot, which could cause your dog to slump a little after they've had that satisfaction. Same goes for a sighthound. I'd attempt to Premack it and use it, but not for teaching new behaviours or even for building motivation.

However, I would be looking for a game that uses the same skills. For a herder, frisbee or something similar. For a sighthound, maybe that's when the flirt pole could help. These games might hit the spot and would be suitable for obedience training because you have total control of them and can make it a quick reward so it doesn't interrupt the session and you can maintain a high reward rate. As far as training in drive goes, you could totally do that with those games.

Someone on another list told me she has two sighthounds that won't chase anything that isn't an animal. They gave up on lure coursing when someone showed them the lure. When they catch things they kill them and bring them home. She can get them playing, but only with treats, and it doesn't do the same thing for them that chasing and killing does.

[huski]

Corvus, when Micha kills something (i.e. a possum) he treats it just like he does a toy. He doesn't eat it, and as soon as it stops squeaking he watches it just like he watches his Cuz ball and nudges it, picks it up and throws it so he can run after it again etc. He brings it over to me to throw for him. His behaviour with it is exactly the same as it is with a toy. Sure there is often more intensity when he is going after something that's alive because it's more exciting, the prey continues to run away from him (unlike a toy that stops moving once I throw it), the thrill of the chase has more build up. I bought him a toy that looks kind of possum like (similar size, colour, although it's a platypus, LOL) and he goes into prey drive just looking at it when I show it to him. I bet you if I could have it on a remote control so he could keep chasing it, I would get the same intensity I get when he's going after live prey.

[huski]

Okay, well, that all depends on whether it's prey drive or not. Let's put it this way. If I had a herder that loved herding more than anything, I would Premack it and use it as a reward in SOME cases, but I wouldn't attempt to use it in obedience, because to let a dog herd something it takes a little time, so would interrupt your training sessions, and might act as a jackpot, which could cause your dog to slump a little after they've had that satisfaction. Same goes for a sighthound. I'd attempt to Premack it and use it, but not for teaching new behaviours or even for building motivation.

However, I would be looking for a game that uses the same skills. For a herder, frisbee or something similar. For a sighthound, maybe that's when the flirt pole could help. These games might hit the spot and would be suitable for obedience training because you have total control of them and can make it a quick reward so it doesn't interrupt the session and you can maintain a high reward rate. As far as training in drive goes, you could totally do that with those games.

In your opinion, are those things (herding, using a flirt pole etc) going to activate a dog's prey drive or are they things that you class as play? I have a hard time believing a herder isn't utilising their prey drive when herding.

[huski]

I will try and research a little more, but not tonight as my head is wanting to explode, or at least it feels like it wants to!

I have some videos on my utube channel from when I was doing drive building with Daisy. I think Shoemonster has some of Ed in the early stages too. Mine aren't particularly good, but it might give you an idea of what it looks like. I've been doing the distance course with Steve and it's fantastic

[Diva]

Someone on another list told me she has two sighthounds that won't chase anything that isn't an animal. They gave up on lure coursing when someone showed them the lure. When they catch things they kill them and bring them home. She can get them playing, but only with treats, and it doesn't do the same thing for them that chasing and killing does.

Yes that can happen and is one of several reasons it's recognised as only at best a partial test of working ability. But a whole lot better than none.

I know I can't use coursing as a reinforcer. I can and do use sprinting that way in training at a park - as they sprint around around me in circles if released off-lead alone - but it tends to be the end of the session, they won't work with the same intensity once they've got the sprint out of their system. Food and praise are easier in that I can work with them longer without the dog reaching satiation (if I'm careful).

I'm was hoping to be able to transfer 'whatever' that drive on the lure is to a toy but I think more fundamentally I'm also interested in the anticipation affect on the dog of training in drive and how that translates into performce. This thread has been useful to me in letting me work out it's that, not necessarily the use of a tug, that is what I want to get out it.

[OSoSwift]

I will try and research a little more, but not tonight as my head is wanting to explode, or at least it feels like it wants to!

I have some videos on my utube channel from when I was doing drive building with Daisy. I think Shoemonster has some of Ed in the early stages too. Mine aren't particularly good, but it might give you an idea of what it looks like. I've been doing the distance course with Steve and it's fantastic

I have seen two of Daisy, non of Ed but would love to see them

My headache is down to a dull roar and the temp outside is 42 so sitting infront of the computer sounds good to me!

[huski]

I will try and research a little more, but not tonight as my head is wanting to explode, or at least it feels like it wants to!

I have some videos on my utube channel from when I was doing drive building with Daisy. I think Shoemonster has some of Ed in the early stages too. Mine aren't particularly good, but it might give you an idea of what it looks like. I've been doing the distance course with Steve and it's fantastic

I have seen two of Daisy, non of Ed but would love to see them

My headache is down to a dull roar and the temp outside is 42 so sitting infront of the computer sounds good to me!

We're having terrible weather here, I really wanted to spend my week off doing loads of training but it's been storming non stop so it's hard to get out of the house!

Will PM you some more videos so as not to further hijack the thread :D

[corvus]

What I am puzzled by, Corvus, is that there are hundreds of examples of dogs trained using prey drive who exhibit exemplary obedience and behaviour.

Where? I've only seen play drive, Erny. And that's what I've been saying over and over in this thread. I'm talking about prey vs play drive. I can't talk about it with you if you won't acknowledge a difference even for the sake of discussion, can I? You've got to at least pretend that a distinction might exist. Diva and Cosmolo managed quite nicely without agreeing with me.

There are also many around who, with the use of training using prey drive, have been rehabilitated from other less desirable behaviour (including aggression to other animals; chasing; etc). Have you not included these in your research?

Again, I don't even know what you're talking about. Are you using my definition of prey drive or yours? If someone has used my definition of prey drive in the way you say they have, then I'd sure like to know about it. I haven't heard of anyone succeeding yet, and I have read accounts of people trying.

Yet, as a zoologist who has studied animal behaviour, you are arguing that training that utilises prey drive is dangerous because if prey drive is utilised then we are teaching our dogs to kill ???

No I'm not, and I've already told you that I'm not. Why am I answering this again? It gets so boring repeating myself. Go look up what I said and come back with something more interesting to talk about.

To clarify, I have never said that prey drive is dangerous. It IS dangerous if you are a potential prey animal. And it's dangerous if you get in the way. I know someone who got attacked by a captive Dingo in prey drive when he tried to rescue the animal the Dingo was killing. Same Dingoes were happy to allow people to take their meals off them and otherwise acted like domestic dogs. I also know someone else who was attacked when trying to resuce an animal from a domestic dog in prey drive. Same dog was fine with having anything else taken from it by the same human. Hence, be careful about prey drive.

Huski: Sure there is often more intensity when he is going after something that's alive because it's more exciting, the prey continues to run away from him (unlike a toy that stops moving once I throw it), the thrill of the chase has more build up. I bought him a toy that looks kind of possum like (similar size, colour, although it's a platypus, LOL) and he goes into prey drive just looking at it when I show it to him. I bet you if I could have it on a remote control so he could keep chasing it, I would get the same intensity I get when he's going after live prey.

Uh huh, that's exactly how Penny used to behave, and no one would have called her a prey driven dog. She looked the same way when she was playing with a toy than when she was chasing a crab or a kangaroo. She killed a few crabs by accident. I don't count it as prey drive if they're playing and accidentally squoosh the poor thing or bite it too hard.

Pyry doesn't even waste energy chasing something he doesn't think he can catch. He eyes off every bird he sees, looking for weaknesses. He has caught sick or injured birds, but he doesn't even try for healthy birds. When he's playing, he looks like Penny did when she was chasing a toy.

Eye-stalking is an ASPECT of prey drive. As I have already said (twice).... never mind. Go look up what I said twice about it if you are actually interested in discussing it.

Diva:I'm was hoping to be able to transfer 'whatever' that drive on the lure is to a toy but I think more fundamentally I'm also interested in the anticipation affect on the dog of training in drive and how that translates into performce.

That's smart and sensible thinking! As I understand it, training in drive increases motivation because it does set up anticipation of something that is loads of fun. The anticipation makes the thing that is loads of fun even more fun. Incidentally, you don't have to use drivey games to create that anticipation. My dogs only have to see me walk into the library to get all hopeful that I've got some treats and a clicker on me. Erik looks almost exactly the same as Huski's Daisy when he's training with the clicker, only a little more animated as he's an animated dog. If you're interested in that side of things, check out establishing operations in psychology. It is something that can influence the effectiveness of a reinforcement in operant conditioning. It's heavy stuff for me, but very interesting if you want to get clever with reinforcers and signals. Try this paper: http://seab.envmed.rochester.edu/jaba/arti...-33-04-0401.pdf

[huski]

Uh huh, that's exactly how Penny used to behave, and no one would have called her a prey driven dog. She looked the same way when she was playing with a toy than when she was chasing a crab or a kangaroo. She killed a few crabs by accident. I don't count it as prey drive if they're playing and accidentally squoosh the poor thing or bite it too hard.

So, by your definition, prey drive is only exhibited when a dog is intent on killing something; but a dog who chases, grabs and kills something is not always exhibiting prey drive?

I don't think it's accidental that he's killed numerous possums and a couple of bats, his instinct to chase and grab things that are moving is pretty high. I'm certain that anyone who met him would see him going after a possum as an example of prey drive.

Eye-stalking is an ASPECT of prey drive. As I have already said (twice).... never mind. Go look up what I said twice about it if you are actually interested in discussing it.

Sorry, I'm not sure what this is in relation to? You asked me if I'd seen my dog kill anything and I was describing to you what it looks like and how it's not that different to him treating his toy. Why so snitchy?

Edited December 29, 2009 by huski

[Erny]

I've only seen play drive, Erny. And that's what I've been saying over and over in this thread. I'm talking about prey vs play drive. I can't talk about it with you if you won't acknowledge a difference even for the sake of discussion, can I? You've got to at least pretend that a distinction might exist. Diva and Cosmolo managed quite nicely without agreeing with me.

Ever think your definition might be what the problem is?

There are also many around who, with the use of training using prey drive, have been rehabilitated from other less desirable behaviour (including aggression to other animals; chasing; etc). Have you not included these in your research?

Again, I don't even know what you're talking about. Are you using my definition of prey drive or yours?

I am using the term and definition that everyone has been using - for decades, and the one I believe in. I can't use your definition as that's just it - it is yours and I don't believe that yours is correct.

I acknowledge that Diva and Cosmolo have used a manner of speaking that you obviously enjoy more. My more direct phrasing and the fact that I do express when I disagree, is something that you've never taken a liking to. I can't help that .

If someone has used my definition of prey drive in the way you say they have, then I'd sure like to know about it. I haven't heard of anyone succeeding yet, and I have read accounts of people trying.

Corvus, I don't think you understand play/prey drives enough for your definition to be accurate. There are many posts in here from many different people trying to explain this to you, but I don't think you've taken much if anything from what they have said and explained, on board. I'm not going to talk using your terminology because I do not think that you are correct.

Yet, as a zoologist who has studied animal behaviour, you are arguing that training that utilises prey drive is dangerous because if prey drive is utilised then we are teaching our dogs to kill ???

No I'm not, and I've already told you that I'm not. Why am I answering this again? It gets so boring repeating myself. Go look up what I said and come back with something more interesting to talk about.

Wow. You really are rude, aren't you? Where'd you learn that? Ever thought that perhaps your posts are sometimes so confusing and convoluted that it is difficult to understand or recognise what you are really trying to say? I've already shown you by example quotations of some of the thing you say which completely contradict themselves.

To clarify, I have never said that prey drive is dangerous. It IS dangerous if you are a potential prey animal. And it's dangerous if you get in the way. I know someone who got attacked by a captive Dingo in prey drive when he tried to rescue the animal the Dingo was killing. Same Dingoes were happy to allow people to take their meals off them and otherwise acted like domestic dogs. I also know someone else who was attacked when trying to resuce an animal from a domestic dog in prey drive. Same dog was fine with having anything else taken from it by the same human. Hence, be careful about prey drive.

But seeing as you've continued on, after telling me to go away and come back "with something more interesting to talk about" I'll add the following in relation to the above :

First, you are talking about wild animals with unbridled prey drive. We are talking about domestic animals who have been selectively bred, many sporting different components of prey drive.

Second, what you've described above sounds more in the realms of resource guarding, rather than the components of prey drive that are utilised in *drive training*.

Third, by telling someone here to make "damn sure you work in play drive and not prey drive" and given the context of your posts and the discussion this thread has turned into, it pretty much tells me you're saying it is dangerous. Even this part of your post suggests it.

Uh huh, that's exactly how Penny used to behave, and no one would have called her a prey driven dog. She looked the same way when she was playing with a toy than when she was chasing a crab or a kangaroo. She killed a few crabs by accident. I don't count it as prey drive if they're playing and accidentally squoosh the poor thing or bite it too hard.

Problem is, Corvus, you aren't recognising all the components of prey drive. You are inventing your own terminology that suggests that for an animal to be in prey drive it must catch and kill. Chase and bite is a component of prey drive, but you seem to be finding this difficult to comprehend or acknowledge. Also, you don't seem to acknowledge that *training in drive* is exactly that - "training". Your posts seem to ignore the fact that there is structure and training involved.

Eye-stalking is an ASPECT of prey drive. As I have already said (twice).... never mind. Go look up what I said twice about it if you are actually interested in discussing it.

That's rude, yet again. YOU want to engage in "conversation" - so you said. Yet you are rude to those very people who will engage in it with you, just because you don't like the phrasing style of their posts. Or at least, so it seems. This sort of retort is really arrogant.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Erny

[corvus]

What I'm saying, Huski, is I think that we have to look at INTENT. Penny chasing a crab and then biting it when she gets it and that resulting in the crab's death does not mean she intended to kill that crab when she started chasing it. Just because it happens doesn't mean you should make the leap and say the dog intended it to happen. Dogs have a lot of power in their bodies and jaws. I saw a possum that had been killed by a dog with hardly a mark on it, but under the skin everything was crushed and bruised. It only takes a bit of excitement for a dog to forget how hard they are biting or grabbing. And we know that chasing an animal is VERY exciting for many dogs.

Here's a really nice video of a dog working in drive: http://www.canis.no/ekurs/14-us-clicker-tr...drive-dogs.html

When I look at that dog, I see a dog playing a really awesome game. Even though she(?) is very excited and tightly wound and there's a lot of tension in her body, her tail is up and wagging, her face is pretty relaxed and she brings the toy back for a game of tug and a rub. It's a really social activity, and even when she goes for the bite sleeve thingy her tail is wagging freely.

There are loads of videos on YouTube of dogs hunting and killing animals to compare it to. I'm not going to post any because they aren't very nice for animal lovers.

You said you didn't believe a herding dog eye-stalking was not using prey drive. I had already shared what I thought about that. More than once.

[Erny]

Just to add :

I can play a game involving one of Mandela's favourite toys "Shrek". We toss it around and we do a bit of tug with it. I don't use my *drive* commands or cues when I work with this. I see the difference in him, in the 'way' he plays this game. It is more gentle (even though he is vigorous) and he throws in play bows during this game. He might bark occasionally, although that's not overly common, but it does happen. I can tell with this he is more into a play than a prey drive. When I use his known "prey drive on switch", he is sharper in his command responses and there are no play bows and he never barks. He is more intense in his body language and facial expression.

If I have him 'playing' (as described above), he is more open to breaking off if he hears or sees something in the environment. When he is in prey drive, he is less easily distracted. I don't say 'impossibly distracted' because his prey drive is not as strong as the prey drive as others, but certainly is less inclined to be distracted when in the mode.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Erny

[corvus]

Ever think your definition might be what the problem is?

How can I know if you won't acknowledge it in discussion?

I am using the term and definition that everyone has been using - for decades, and the one I believe in. I can't use your definition as that's just it - it is yours and I don't believe that yours is correct.

No, not everyone, Erny. Even just amongst trainers there's a lot of variation. I'm using a more clearly defined definition than anyone I have yet seen define it. And lots of trainers are saying play drive rather than prey. And that was a point I have already made.

Corvus, I don't think you understand play/prey drives enough for your definition to be accurate. There are many posts in here from many different people trying to explain this to you, but I don't think you've taken much if anything from what they have said and explained, on board. I'm not going to talk using your terminology because I do not think that you are correct.

Nice dodging, Erny. If in doubt, just confidently say the other person doesn't know enough. It may surprise you, but people do desktop studies all the time and base major decisions on them. I've done too many to count. It can be useful if you do enough research and talk to a few experienced people. I have tried to do both as much as I can. YouTube has a wealth of video evidence to look at. I must have looked at dozens of dogs in various states of "drive". Spoken to some very successful trainers that use it, too. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we disagree.

I can talk using your terminology if you like, but it's gonna be even more confusing because I don't have an extra term to describe the difference I think exists.

Wow. You really are rude, aren't you? Where'd you learn that?

From this board, actually. My rudeness stems from frustration. Sorry.

You took a lot of those quotations out of context, so I didn't bother responding to them.

I agree that my posts are convoluted and confusing at the moment, which is why I was reluctant to elaborate on my intial post. I did at your insistence, Erny, so quit complaining. I even said you weren't going to like it.

We are talking about domestic animals who have been selectively bred, many sporting different components of prey drive.

Yes, I acknowledged that in an earlier post. We decided it was a red herring to the discussion at hand. *grinds frustration down*

Second, what you've described above sounds more in the realms of resource guarding, rather than the components of prey drive that are utilised in *drive training*.

That is possible, which is why I added that the Dingoes and dog in question did not display resource guarding over anything else. I think it unlikely based on that and some videos I've seen on YouTube of similar moments. It looks like redirection to me.

I never claimed that you could let alone do use that kind of behaviour in drive training, regardless of what drive you were training in.

Third, by telling someone here to make "damn sure you work in play drive and not prey drive" and given the context of your posts and the discussion this thread has turned into, it pretty much tells me you're saying it is dangerous. Even this part of your post suggests it.

Well, I did actually say that it was in that post. And my reasons why, I thought, were fair. So what? Now let's scrap my definition and talk about yours. Training with prey drive is NOT DANGEROUS. Did that make sense?

Problem is, Corvus, you aren't recognising all the components of prey drive. You are inventing your own terminology that suggests that for an animal to be in prey drive it must catch and kill. Chase and bite is a component of prey drive, but you seem to be finding this difficult to comprehend or acknowledge. Also, you don't seem to acknowledge that *training in drive* is exactly that - "training". Your posts seem to ignore the fact that there is structure and training involved.

I'm not inventing my own terminology. I'm using the aspects of prey drive commonly referred to in places all over the internet. I've already talked at length about chase and bite and why I don't think it alone is prey drive, so I won't go there again.

I do find it difficult, though, and I think I explained why, so I won't go there again either. Check the posts in reply to Diva and Cosmolo.

No, I get that it's training. Let's go back to your definition. Training in prey drive is structured, increases motivation for whatever you are training them to do, and provides big rewards that are social and fun in nature. I had actually said that already and more than once. See why your "direct manner" frustrates me? Because I wouldn't have to keep contradicting myself if you would at least pretend the difference I see might exist for long enough to understand what my points are.

It's a two-way street, Erny. I'm rude because there are a few people on this board who seem thoroughly capable of putting aside their beliefs for long enough to discuss the possibility that there are other possibilities out there. They have been polite, thoughtful, and got me to repeat myself when they have not understood without accusing me of being arrogant or picking at parts of what I had said with arugments I had already responded to several times. It seems very rude to me to do the latter. Fair enough, you don't understand my posts and maybe I'm being too hasty. How about coming at it with a slightly less aggressive and accusatory manner so that I don't assume you are being too rude to even pay attention to what I say in the first place?

[Erny]

Ever think your definition might be what the problem is?

How can I know if you won't acknowledge it in discussion?

huh?