Quick Question About Training In Drive

[corvus]

I have never done any drive training

And yet there are people on this forum who have used prey drive training successfully, without running into the problems you seem to think will occur.

Can I just point out that considering how interchangeably people use prey and play, how am I to know which drive they are using?

Do you think if someone is using their dog's drive successfully, that they must be using play drive, not prey drive? How many dogs have you seen in real life working properly in prey drive with their handlers? It's far from anti-social.

It's not that black and white, but I know you will see it that way anyway, so yes to play drive rather than prey drive. I have looked around substantially on YouTube and have seen exactly zero dogs working nicely in prey drive. How surprising. Plenty working nicely in play, though. Schutzhound stuff is a lot of that crossover stuff I was talking about, and some nice play.

Many dogs who have a history of reward with chasing live animals don't want much to do with a tug, especially when chasing that animal. Yet, ask experienced trainers like K9 Force and Erny etc and I bet they will be able to tell you of many clients who have been able to take these dogs and train them to see a tug as more rewarding, by utilising the dog's prey drive.

No, by tapping in to the dogs' PLAY drive. Tug is a game. Chasing a tug toy and grabbing it is a game. Pretending the tug toy is an animal is a game. Killing something is not a game.

I've seen Daisy's eyes get that glazed over look when she's hurridly gorged herself on food she'd grabbed, she's in drive peak which is why you can't pull your dogs back out of it. Drive training takes that energy and drive by taking it and putting in control so you CAN utilise it. It's the reason why people who've trained their dogs in prey drive can tell them to down or recall them when they are chasing live prey and have the dog respond instantly.

Yes I know that, and I've experienced the same thing with Kivi and his food-trained recalls without any drive training at all. I'm not disputing the effectiveness of it and I'm not interested in talking about the basics. You can look up the basics anywhere. But what about the subtleties?

There are so many people who've trained so many dogs successfully with prey drive, or play or food drive, that I actually find your current line of thought quite bizarre, and kind of insulting. Should we disregard the real experience of those who've had so much success with these methods? Whose dogs are certainly not damaged, or ruined by the training in any way? Abandon methods that work so well for so many dogs because you don't think we know enough about it? Despite your claim that your objection to drive training isn't about damaging the dog, your posts are suggesting otherwise.

Huski, I find that insulting. Why would I do so much research into drive training, seek out people that know a lot about it, play around with it myself, and start my dogs on playing drivey games on cue if I somehow thought it was damaging, ruining, or never intended to use it myself, even? Do you think I'm trying to discredit a method just because I think it warrants a close look? Geez, do you EVER research a method and consider the pitfalls before using it? I'm just trying to share what I've learnt. There's no harm in caution.

To be honest Corvus I don't understand how you can draw the conclusions you have when you've never done drive training and have little or no real experience with it.

First of all, it's called a literature review. Second of all, I said explicitly that I keep changing my mind. I haven't drawn very many conclusions about drive training and what I have are subject to being changed at any moment.

I'm not trying to argue or discredit drive training, and I'm not against it. I'm wary of prey drive because of the research I've done and the observations I've made (they do call it predatory aggression, which is dirt in my face, by the way). I think play drive is an excellent thing to work on and an excellent way to interact with your dog. Go for it. I've shared my concerns about prey drive and it seems pretty clear that no one is very interested, or thinks it means I don't like drive training, which serves nicely to illustrate my point about people not understanding the subtleties.

Merry Christmas to you all. I've said all I wanted to say and more.

[huski]

No, by tapping in to the dogs' PLAY drive. Tug is a game. Chasing a tug toy and grabbing it is a game. Pretending the tug toy is an animal is a game. Killing something is not a game.

In your opinion :D Prey drive is the desire to chase and grab a moving item. A tug is a moving item. The dog chases and grabs it. You can call it play drive all you like but that doesn't make it true, or mean that you know the dog doesn't see the tug as a prey item. How do you know that a dog doesn't see a toy as a prey item? Do you think Greyhounds racing on the track see the fake rabbit as something other than a prey item? Or that all dogs who do lurecoursing see the lure as something other than a prey item? Are they all responding "play" drive? How do you know they are?

I've seen Daisy's eyes get that glazed over look when she's hurridly gorged herself on food she'd grabbed, she's in drive peak which is why you can't pull your dogs back out of it. Drive training takes that energy and drive by taking it and putting in control so you CAN utilise it. It's the reason why people who've trained their dogs in prey drive can tell them to down or recall them when they are chasing live prey and have the dog respond instantly.

Yes I know that, and I've experienced the same thing with Kivi and his food-trained recalls without any drive training at all. I'm not disputing the effectiveness of it and I'm not interested in talking about the basics. You can look up the basics anywhere. But what about the subtleties?

I was responding to the part of your post that said that when a dog gets to that point that it's useless to you. You can learn to harness and control it, so it's not so useless.

Huski, I find that insulting. Why would I do so much research into drive training, seek out people that know a lot about it, play around with it myself, and start my dogs on playing drivey games on cue if I somehow thought it was damaging, ruining, or never intended to use it myself, even? Do you think I'm trying to discredit a method just because I think it warrants a close look? Geez, do you EVER research a method and consider the pitfalls before using it? I'm just trying to share what I've learnt. There's no harm in caution.

The problem with your "research" though Corvus is that it seems to be all theory and little practical experience. You state your opinion as if it is fact, as if you've discovered something that some of the most experienced drive trainers in the country are yet to cotton on to. There's nothing wrong with doing tonnes of research (I do, to your surprise I'm sure) or forming your own opinion but stating it like it's fact, and implying that those who are far more experienced than you have it wrong is insulting.

[Red Fox]

Tug is a game. Chasing a tug toy and grabbing it is a game. Pretending the tug toy is an animal is a game. Killing something is not a game.

To US killing something is not a game. I dont believe that animals see it that way though. This may be a little OT but how many people have seen an animal kill something without intending to? Say a cat chasing a moth and playing with it until it is dead?

I don't have a degree in science, nor will I even pretend that I understand the different drives, but (IMO) to a dog- chasing and 'killing' a tug to achieve drive satisfaction and chasing and killing an animal are one and the same.

It's very self satisfying for some animals to hunt and if that is able to be transfered into a prey item (ie toy) then that can only be a good thing :p

Not trying to start an argument on this one Corvus, it's JMO

Slightly OT from the original post but has anyone done K9 Force's TID program with a lower drive dog? and if so, did you find that you were able to increase the drive to a more workable level?

ETA

Prey drive is the desire to chase and grab a moving item. A tug is a moving item. The dog chases and grabs it. You can call it play drive all you like but that doesn't make it true, or mean that you know the dog doesn't see the tug as a prey item. How do you know that a dog doesn't see a toy as a prey item? Do you think Greyhounds racing on the track see the fake rabbit as something other than a prey item? Or that all dogs who do lurecoursing see the lure as something other than a prey item? Are they all responding "play" drive? How do you know they are?

Huski said it much better than me :D

Edited December 24, 2009 by SecretKei

[Aidan]

Corvus, it's worth remembering that any discussion of drives lacks universally accepted definitions. They are not technical terms, more a 'short-hand' representation of collections of behaviours, both operant and respondent, that are common across broad populations of domestic dogs.

I suspect your definition of 'prey drive' is different to what most dog trainers would be referring to.

[Aidan]

Uncontrolled prey drive= bad

Controlled prey drive- awesome

:D Good place to leave the discussion I reckon.

[Erny]

I have never done any drive training and don't pretend to be any kind of training expert. But I'm a scientist and I observe and research as surely as I breath

Corvus .... I think the problem is that you don't understand how to train in drive. It's almost as though you think that by training in drive, you will have as little control as you would with a wild animal on the hunt.

And that's fine it that's what you want to think, or as far as you want to learn. We've discussed this over on numerous threads and I can tell that you have your own thought sequences, which is your prerogative. But it is when you begin telling people in a training forum to avoid prey drive training, as though you know this that it becomes a problem. You really can't advise that (or, I guess you can ..... freedom of speech, it's a free country and all of that ..... but it wouldn't necessarily be wise or anywhere near accurate) as though you know, given that you've never done any drive training yourself. Or at least, you've never done any that you are conscious of. Thing is, you use the dog's instinctive drive to attain the control that you want and need. THAT is what makes training in drive so powerful, so reliable. Watching you with the flirt pole, I see you as thinking it is about just heightening the dog to the point of not thinking. And that is not "drive training" .... that's only the first component IE building drive. Although even then, I do it differently to how you are doing it by just whizzing around an item that your dog rarely gets to catch.

I am telling you that my observations and my research have led me to believe that prey drive and play drive are not the same thing. I will change my mind when I see or read something that is a compelling counter-argument, but until then I think it's wise to be cautious. I want the fun and social thing, not the serious killing thing.

What research articles have you read on prey and play drive?

If I had my time again I think I would use it but less chasing and more tugging.

Something I mentioned when you put up the video clip on it. Yet in that thread, you were quite set against 'wins' as I suggested.

Your posts still confuse me because you start out claiming something yet somewhere along the line, you say something completely contradictory. The above quote is an example. But to add to that, drive training is not about the tug itself, it is about the dog (having become 'addicted' to it ..... ie building drive) learning what it needs to do to attain drive satisfaction.

If you rev them too much you can make them stressed, which is not good, obviously. The difference between a little frustration and stress is sometimes not that obvious.

What experience are you basing your theory that utilising a dog's prey drive is neurologically damaging to the dog?

Wowsers! Hold on, girl. I never said anything about damaging.

From your above quote, Corvus .... "... you can make them stressed, which is not good, obviously."

Go ahead and use prey drive if you like (if you can), but to me it's kind of anti-social and more about killing things than having fun. See above.

You think that training a dog to achieve drive satisfaction through a tug, and to work for that satisfaction (result being reliable and fast command compliance) teaches the dog to kill things?

Corvus, who have you been talking to? Or what books are you reading?

I'm changing my mind on a regular basis ...

And that's a prerogative we all have the right to. However, if it is "on a regular basis" then it indicates uncertainty and on that basis, it shouldn't be a matter of statement to those reading, but rather, a question.

...quite frankly I think that drive is very poorly understood.

I'd recommend you attend one of K9 Force's workshops. Perhaps then you'd begin to gather a richer insight of how to use what a dog has been genetically blessed with and to use it for good.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Erny

[Erny]

Huski, I find that insulting. Why would I do so much research into drive training, seek out people that know a lot about it, play around with it myself, and start my dogs on playing drivey games on cue if I somehow thought it was damaging, ruining, or never intended to use it myself, even? Do you think I'm trying to discredit a method just because I think it warrants a close look? Geez, do you EVER research a method and consider the pitfalls before using it? I'm just trying to share what I've learnt. There's no harm in caution.

But you said before that you haven't done any drive training. :D

I'm not saying don't use it, I'm just saying make damn sure you're encouraging play drive and not prey drive.

That's not discrediting a method even by strong implication? That's not taking a "close look" at it as you claim to be doing in the first quote. That's a recommendation to reject/avoid.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Erny

[Diva]

In your opinion :p Prey drive is the desire to chase and grab a moving item. A tug is a moving item. The dog chases and grabs it. You can call it play drive all you like but that doesn't make it true, or mean that you know the dog doesn't see the tug as a prey item. How do you know that a dog doesn't see a toy as a prey item? Do you think Greyhounds racing on the track see the fake rabbit as something other than a prey item? Or that all dogs who do lurecoursing see the lure as something other than a prey item? Are they all responding "play" drive? How do you know they are?

Yes, this is one bit that is confusing me. I believe that when Jas locks on the lure, it's an instinctual response to fast moving prey heightened by centuries of selective breeding that's motivating her. When the lure stops, she stops over the top of it, she has no desire to rip it up or 'kill' it - but despite the lack of this part of what you seem to be saying prey drive is Corvus I really have trouble accepting the chase has a play motivation rather than prey.

I had a Borzoi years ago who caught quite a few rabbits. But she seldom killed them. Some died when she grabbed them at speed, but killing didn't seem to be her object - catching was. And her attitude didn't look any more like play than Jas's on the lure. I'm not convinced prey drive needs to include the kill for satisfaction?

Corvus, it's worth remembering that any discussion of drives lacks universally accepted definitions. They are not technical terms, more a 'short-hand' representation of collections of behaviours, both operant and respondent, that are common across broad populations of domestic dogs.

I suspect your definition of 'prey drive' is different to what most dog trainers would be referring to.

This lack of a common lexicon and the use sometimes of almost 'mystical' language is a barrier for me too. I have a science/ economics background and feel a lot more comfortable with the language of Skinner et al than I do the drive trainers.

But I don't want to lose what these trainers can teach me because of that. I don't know that a cattle dog chasing a ball is the same as a sighthound on a hare - I guess that question, and whether both of those behaviours can be utilised in training or if I'm better not going there with the sighthound, is really the essence of my first post.

Just because I can (and I'm proud of her :D ), and because skysoaringmagpie takes a great photo, here's a photo of Jas chasing a lure and showing the kind of focus I'd like to capture for other types of work.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Diva

[shoemonster]

A pic of my prey drive trained dog in full drive!

Ed is competing in CD, (2 passes so far) and just started flyball FDX (2nd flyball title)

Molly is about to start CD and it 20 or so points away from her FM (5th flyball title)

[Diva]

A pic of my prey drive trained dog in full drive!

A lovely photo, but not quite the look I'm after

[RubyStar]

My eye is automatically drawn to something exceptionally LARGE in that photo, and it's not your gorgeous brown cabinet!

[Tiggy]

Poor Ed he'll be embarrassed now .

[Paulp]

Poor Ed he'll be embarrassed now .

I don't think Eddie has a concept of embarassment, you should of seen his 5 minute pee right in front of the "grandstand" at the Dandenong flyball comp!

[shoemonster]

Poor Ed!

A vid from about 8 months ago of our obed training in food drive, sorry about the sun

Edited December 25, 2009 by shoemonster

[Tiggy]

Great work shoemonster .

[huski]

Ed's awesome! I remember watching some of his videos when I was just starting out with Daisy and wishing she'd have half his drive for food

[shoemonster]

He's definately part piggy! Once the baby is born Im gonna get my butt into gear and get that last CD pass and get going on CDX. I found morning sickness and trialling didnt work that well together :D

DD I see you there, well done on Brydee's pass at FOO, saw in the SBTCV bulletin

Edited December 26, 2009 by shoemonster

[dogdude]

He's definately part piggy! Once the baby is born Im gonna get my butt into gear and get that last CD pass and get going on CDX. I found morning sickness and trialling didnt work that well together

DD I see you there, well done on Brydee's pass at FOO, saw in the SBTCV bulletin

This post has been edited by shoemonster: 26th Dec 2009 - 12:23 PM

Just watching your clip, nice work Shoey. Must have been hiding under a rock,.......(didn't know you were expecting) Congrats!

Dont get the SBT Bulletin. But thanks.

[shoemonster]

Thanks Got 5 weeks to go now

Will scan the bulletin in for you, you've got a whole page, and a pic hehehe

[moosmum]

Hi Guys,

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest.I have never trained in drive before and my 3yo dobe 1/8th rottiy girl sounds like a perfect candidate fort this type of training.She has a very extreme prey drive and this causes her to become very easily distracted with my old training methods.She has got much better as she has grown up,but no where near what I believe her potential could be.

My problem is we are fairly isolated and I can't get to "classes"of any sort nor afford the correspondence classes at this time.We will be re-locating hopefully next year and badly want to do some professional training then.

Links to other sites can be awkward too,as we are on solar power and satelite broadband,both very unreliable for long times spent on the p.c.and just too much time.

I am not confident I have the ideas right. ie:I assume you build the drive with the toys,then take it away and return it only when the dog has focused her attention on you and your 1st simple so as not to fail command,then build up to slowly to what you want?)

Anyway,without an experienced person to make corrections as needed,I am worried I may make some bad mistakes that may create serious problems.She is very FAST and agile.

She is great with our animals,kids etc. Very protective,but so prey driven its a pain.She found a rat trapped in the wall 4 days ago and was desperate to get it,chewing and clawing at the wood.We ended up taking a piece off the door frame and I managed to loop the tail of the rat to where she could grab it.The space was to small for the rat to get out,but she got it out anyway and we had no peace till she did.

So,if anyone can recommend a good D.V.D or books to get me started I would realy appreciate it.

Thanks for starting this thread and to all who have posted here,I don't mean to hijack.