Quick Question About Training In Drive

[Cosmolo]

What differences do you see that would cause you to want play drive rather than prey drive corvus?

[huski]

Corvus, when Erik goes mad chasing after his flirt pole, is that what you call play drive, not prey drive? Considering that prey drive is the dog's instinct to chase and grab a moving object, what do you define as the difference between play and prey drive?

What experience are you basing your theory that utilising a dog's prey drive is neurologically damaging to the dog?

[percyk]

I'm going to do a bit of hijacking - sorry Pete but it's too tempting (and you did say you thought Pete was part sighthound)

I'm starting obedience with my Borzoi next year. One in particular has very high prey drive - but it's about real prey, not toys. She's hot on the lure so she will chase plastic if it moves fast enough, but toys and tug don't do it for her.

Does anyone have experience of a sighthound with a great focus on rabbits and hares but little on toys having their drive successfully re-directed to a toy/tug? Or am I better sticking with other reinforcers?

i was travelling in the states a few years ago and saw people using squawkers to train sighthounds

its a thing that makes a noise when rattled

sounds like something screeching in pain lol

awful but works for the houndies

[Diva]

thanks percyk. I haven't heard of them but I do know one woman in the US who trials Borzoi and is a professional trainer, I'll email her.

[dogdude]

Not corvus but I wonder if its because you come across too forceful. I have watched people try and engage dogs with toys in particular and often push them to the point where the dog has switched off.

Hi Ness

Were these people knowledgable about using prey drive to train? Or just a random dog owner shoving a tuggie down their dogs throat?

There is no "push" involved in this style of training. Its all about allowing something to happen in a controlled manor.

[bedazzledx2]

Does it matter what 'drive' your dog is in? Serious question here no flames intended. I personally don't care what drive my dog is in when training so long as he's engaged in the training game. I use lots of motivational methods including his dinner in small containers hidden on the training ground, treats from me, throwing food, toys, tuggies, a physical full on physical game and sometimes doggy zen. If I can't engage my dog then there is something wrong with either me or him and I would abort training that session and try to fix the underlying problem.

... prey and play drive seem to be used interchangeably, and that deeply bothers me. I liken them to fear and excitement. Similar sometimes, but in no way the same.

Your train of thought puzzles me. . Can you explain further what you mean?

I'm not saying don't use it, I'm just saying make damn sure you're encouraging play drive and not prey drive.

Nothing wrong with using prey drive to achieve the training reliability that you're after. Don't know why you're so vehemently against it. Many behaviour problems have been overcome with the use of the instinct that is there. What experiences (depth and breadth) have you had with using prey drive in training that would have you anti to using it?

Does K9 Force have any qualifications, just out of interest?

He does. I think it is on his website. Apart from formal ones, I'd suggest that a very long and broad base of experience would count as a qualification as well. Why do you ask?

[ness]

Hmm dogdude probably not knowledgeable but I was just suggesting something which might cause a decrease in the dogs drive.

[Erny]

Does it matter what 'drive' your dog is in? Serious question here no flames intended. I personally don't care what drive my dog is in when training so long as he's engaged in the training game. I use lots of motivational methods including his dinner in small containers hidden on the training ground, treats from me, throwing food, toys, tuggies, a physical full on physical game and sometimes doggy zen. If I can't engage my dog then there is something wrong with either me or him and I would abort training that session and try to fix the underlying problem.

If it is working for your and for your dog, and if it will continue to work for you and your dog in all sorts of different environments, situations, then no ..... it doesn't matter. The thing with drive is though, that it is instinctive. You are using a part of the dog that doesn't have to think to reflex, he just does. Consequently, when using drive to train, the responses from dogs are often fast, if not split lightning fast, and solid, and reliable. Because the dog's not thinking of anything else other than achieving drive satisfaction. When using rewards more as an "exchange" method of reward, some dogs simply aren't into enough to over-ride the drive that is aroused in and by certain environments. So some people need more.

It's not for everyone. But if they have certain behaviour issues with their dogs, and/or if they just want to heighten and really strengthen the command reliability they have, then training in drive is a good way to go, if genetics have blessed their dog with the strength of drive needed for the job.

And when anyone suggests they'd like to learn about training in drive, as the OP has, I sure as eggs won't stand in her way.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Erny

[bedazzledx2]

Thanks for the explanation Erny. A bit like the Recall I train....no thought involved, just turn on a dime and come!

"And when anyone suggests they'd like to learn about training in drive, as the OP has, I sure as eggs won't stand in her way."

No Argument from me

[RubyStar]

Thanks for the explanation Erny. A bit like the Recall I train....no thought involved, just turn on a dime and come! ;)

I'd love to know more about this method you train, as I want to use my "training break" to teach a more reliable informal recall.... but I guess it might have to wait for another time, so I don't hijack this thread

[bedazzledx2]

Have a look at this site. Lots of good stuff here. http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/Lesson6.html

Thanks for the explanation Erny. A bit like the Recall I train....no thought involved, just turn on a dime and come! :D

I'd love to know more about this method you train, as I want to use my "training break" to teach a more reliable informal recall.... but I guess it might have to wait for another time, so I don't hijack this thread

[corvus]

... prey and play drive seem to be used interchangeably, and that deeply bothers me. I liken them to fear and excitement. Similar sometimes, but in no way the same.

Your train of thought puzzles me. :D. Can you explain further what you mean?

Okay, but I don't think you'll like what I'm trying to say, because it has its genesis in wildlife experience.

It is my observation that at times an animal that is highly excited, even over something good, can become full of nervous energy, and when they are like that it's quite easy for them to go from excitement to fear, but not as easy for them to go back. This applies minimally to dogs and possibly not at all to dogs that have been handled well. Ideally you give them an outlet for that energy before it becomes nervous energy and you're home free. However, it has been my observation that a dog that is playing a high drive game with another dog is only a step or two away from turning that game into something more serious. It's called predatory drift and I think it deserves to be treated with respect.

So I'm cautious about drive.

I'm not saying don't use it, I'm just saying make damn sure you're encouraging play drive and not prey drive.

Nothing wrong with using prey drive to achieve the training reliability that you're after. Don't know why you're so vehemently against it. Many behaviour problems have been overcome with the use of the instinct that is there. What experiences (depth and breadth) have you had with using prey drive in training that would have you anti to using it?

Have you not seen a dog kill an animal? That's not the same as "killing" a toy. I lived with my mum and her wildly prey-driven Vallhund for a while. Pyry once tore the garage wall apart to get at a trapped possum. He's only a 13kg dog. He doesn't do that kind of thing for fun. When he goes into hunting mode he can only be satisfied by catching and killing an animal. He does not want to play tug. He just wants to kill something. I thought long and hard about it, and came to the conclusion that you just can't harness that. He gets very excited about playing with things that resemble animals, but he's playing. The body language is totally different. He is an independent dog. When he's in hunting mode he doesn't want anyone around, but playing is a social thing he does with you. Totally different.

I have never done any drive training and don't pretend to be any kind of training expert. But I'm a scientist and I observe and research as surely as I breath. I am telling you that my observations and my research have led me to believe that prey drive and play drive are not the same thing. I will change my mind when I see or read something that is a compelling counter-argument, but until then I think it's wise to be cautious. I want the fun and social thing, not the serious killing thing.

It is my current thinking that you can use foraging trips as a relationship building exercise with great success. I think that you can even incorporate that into training with a bit of creativity, but tug is a good deal easier and it's already exactly what you need it to be without any creativity!

Huski: Corvus, when Erik goes mad chasing after his flirt pole, is that what you call play drive, not prey drive? Considering that prey drive is the dog's instinct to chase and grab a moving object, what do you define as the difference between play and prey drive?

The jury is out for the moment, so the flirt pole has been retired. I am currently of the opinion that this is where these crossovers between play and prey drive occur if one isn't careful, and I am also of the opinion that I saw it a few times with Erik or at least saw him borderline, which is why the flirt pole has been retired.

Indulge an amateur for a moment. Chasing games are fun and I like playing them with the dogs, but this is where looking at Kivi is actually more useful than looking at Erik. Kivi is a low drive dog, but if he sees my hare run his eyes glaze and he won't hear me. When Kivi plays chasing games, it doesn't take much for his eyes to glaze. That is useless to me. He is gone and all he wants to do is stop whatever is moving, preferably with his teeth. He's not trying to kill it, but he's only just still playing. But if I can keep a toy in his sights, it's still definitely a game and his eyes don't glaze. That's useful to me. He is with me, he is capable of listening, and he wants to engage with me. If I drop the toy he might still chase me, but I lose everything I had. I wouldn't go so far as to say without the toy he's in prey drive, but that may well be the case. I will say I think he's a lot closer to prey drive. Too close.

I think flirt poles are fine in moderation and good for engaging a reluctant dog. It's too hot for Erik, now, but I'm not sure if that was my clumsy handling or the flirt pole itself. Possibly both. If I had my time again I think I would use it but less chasing and more tugging.

What experience are you basing your theory that utilising a dog's prey drive is neurologically damaging to the dog?

Wowsers! Hold on, girl. I never said anything about damaging. Go ahead and use prey drive if you like (if you can), but to me it's kind of anti-social and more about killing things than having fun. See above.

My objection is not based on perceived damage to the dog in any way shape or form. It is based on what I would be trying to achieve through using drive at all, and my preference for activities that promote sociality with my dogs. I'm on a steep learning curve, here, and quite frankly I think that drive is very poorly understood. It bothers me because I have a visceral need to know how what I do works. I'm changing my mind on a regular basis, as I do with everything I am learning a lot about from scratch.

[huski]

I have never done any drive training

And yet there are people on this forum who have used prey drive training successfully, without running into the problems you seem to think will occur. Do you think if someone is using their dog's drive successfully, that they must be using play drive, not prey drive? How many dogs have you seen in real life working properly in prey drive with their handlers? It's far from anti-social.

Many dogs who have a history of reward with chasing live animals don't want much to do with a tug, especially when chasing that animal. Yet, ask experienced trainers like K9 Force and Erny etc and I bet they will be able to tell you of many clients who have been able to take these dogs and train them to see a tug as more rewarding, by utilising the dog's prey drive.

I've seen Daisy's eyes get that glazed over look when she's hurridly gorged herself on food she'd grabbed, she's in drive peak which is why you can't pull your dogs back out of it. Drive training takes that energy and drive by taking it and putting in control so you CAN utilise it. It's the reason why people who've trained their dogs in prey drive can tell them to down or recall them when they are chasing live prey and have the dog respond instantly.

There are so many people who've trained so many dogs successfully with prey drive, or play or food drive, that I actually find your current line of thought quite bizarre, and kind of insulting. Should we disregard the real experience of those who've had so much success with these methods? Whose dogs are certainly not damaged, or ruined by the training in any way? Abandon methods that work so well for so many dogs because you don't think we know enough about it? Despite your claim that your objection to drive training isn't about damaging the dog, your posts are suggesting otherwise.

To be honest Corvus I don't understand how you can draw the conclusions you have when you've never done drive training and have little or no real experience with it.

Edited December 24, 2009 by huski

[Cosmolo]

Uncontrolled prey drive= bad

Controlled prey drive- awesome

Training in drive is about controlling prey drive and using it to your advantage. I think you are confusing differences between prey drive and play drive with differences in the level of drive and drive object. One of my dogs goes into prey drive with a tug, the level of drive with a sheep however is much higher- its not a different drive but it is simply more intense.

ETA- IF you have a prey driven dog, and don't give them an outlet, what do you expect to happen to that drive? It won't just extinguish on its own with many dogs.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Cosmolo

[bedazzledx2]

quick question to those who are advocating this training. What level ANKC Title obedience trialling class are you currently competing in? ie CCD, CD, CDX, UD or UDX? What is the highest level you have atained with any dog?

I have never done any drive training

And yet there are people on this forum who have used prey drive training successfully, without running into the problems you seem to think will occur. Do you think if someone is using their dog's drive successfully, that they must be using play drive, not prey drive? How many dogs have you seen in real life working properly in prey drive with their handlers? It's far from anti-social.

Many dogs who have a history of reward with chasing live animals don't want much to do with a tug, especially when chasing that animal. Yet, ask experienced trainers like K9 Force and Erny etc and I bet they will be able to tell you of many clients who have been able to take these dogs and train them to see a tug as more rewarding, by utilising the dog's prey drive.

I've seen Daisy's eyes get that glazed over look when she's hurridly gorged herself on food she'd grabbed, she's in drive peak which is why you can't pull your dogs back out of it. Drive training takes that energy and drive by taking it and putting in control so you CAN utilise it. It's the reason why people who've trained their dogs in prey drive can tell them to down or recall them when they are chasing live prey and have the dog respond instantly.

There are so many people who've trained so many dogs successfully with prey drive, or play or food drive, that I actually find your current line of thought quite bizarre, and kind of insulting. Should we disregard the real experience of those who've had so much success with these methods? Whose dogs are certainly not damaged, or ruined by the training in any way? Abandon methods that work so well for so many dogs because you don't think we know enough about it? Despite your claim that your objection to drive training isn't about damaging the dog, your posts are suggesting otherwise.

To be honest Corvus I don't understand how you can draw the conclusions you have when you've never done drive training and have little or no real experience with it.

[Cosmolo]

I don't trial now but have dabbled before and it was not to my liking for a number of reasons. I consider my dogs to be highly trained and extremely reliable (as does everyone that meets them) but no, they do not have letters after their name. I do have trialling clients though- CD and CDX.

ANKC obedience is not the only measure of training though :D

[huski]

quick question to those who are advocating this training. What level ANKC Title obedience trialling class are you currently competing in? ie CCD, CD, CDX, UD or UDX? What is the highest level you have atained with any dog?

I started drive training with Daisy specifically to train her to compete in obedience. We'll be entering our first CCD trial in Febuary :D (now I've said it on DOL, I'll have to send the enteries in ). But, I know many more people who have competed through all levels of obedience and other dog sports using drive training.

Edited December 24, 2009 by huski

[ness]

Seita has a CDX on Ella and is training for UD I know she advocates this training method.

[J...]

I have done some drive training with Darcy and I've realised I need to go back to it, she finds agility a little too rewarding sometimes and I need the reward to come from me and not from her agility. :D

But her early work still stands her in really good stead - you talk about a low drive dog's eyes closing over at your hare running Corvus. Darcy is kelpie x lab and most people comment on her level of drive, so she's no slouch drive wise. Not only can I call her off a rabbit instantly midway through the chase, these days she will look to me for permission to be released to chase the rabbit. Same for roos, sheep, birds etc.

She also has a high food drive (she is half lab after all) and she will drop food in a heartbeat when told, no matter how high her value is for it. A few nights ago both dogs were given a pigs ear and I was in the kitchen in the next room (in view). She was gutsing the ear to stop the pup getting it and started to cough it up while still trying to eat the rest, at which point I told her to put the ear down until she'd finishing coughing. She sat with that ear between her front feet and the pup within a metre or so until I released her to eat it again.

As for titles - she's got her CCD but we switched to agility. I'm going back to basics with my agility and as part of that I am throwing some obedience work in and will trial in CD early this year as the quality of her obedience work has gone ahead in leaps and bounds. She is titled to Masters level in both agility and jumping - she had both her Masters titles by 3.5 year old. As a 1st time dog owner I'm pretty proud of her. :p

[kayla1]

I’m using drive training for two of my dogs – I’m still completing K9 Force’s TID course so haven’t decided which dog sports they will go on to yet. Both dogs are very prey driven and TID has been a godsend for them. Annie is only a small dog, and was quite timid, but she is so much more confident now and a much happier dog. There is no way I could get this amount of focus, and such quick responses, through other methods of training – not with these dogs anyway.