Quick Question About Training In Drive

[Aidan]

One important point is that prey always moves away from the predator. Never towards it.

Quoted for emphasis. This is the single biggest mistake that people make with their dog who "won't play tug".

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/727 (instructions for teaching 'tug' and 'out')

[poodlefan]

I'm going to do a bit of hijacking - sorry Pete but it's too tempting (and you did say you thought Pete was part sighthound)

I'm starting obedience with my Borzoi next year. One in particular has very high prey drive - but it's about real prey, not toys. She's hot on the lure so she will chase plastic if it moves fast enough, but toys and tug don't do it for her.

Does anyone have experience of a sighthound with a great focus on rabbits and hares but little on toys having their drive successfully re-directed to a toy/tug? Or am I better sticking with other reinforcers?

You can get rabbit fur tugs Diva - that might be the go for your girl. How is she with a ball?

[Quickasyoucan]

And it's more geared towards the average dog than all the Schutzhund stuff.

I think there's a tendancy to be a bit gung-ho with drive training.

Huh .

Who's talking about Schutzhund here?

And "gung-ho" with drive training? What do you mean?

I consider myself an "average dog owner" in that I'm average though my dog thinks he is special and takes offence to being called average.

We have done a TID workshop and a couple of others with Steve and have found it a great way to harness energy towards positive results and to use it for what average dog owners want ie basic obedience, good doggy citizenship.

I'm not going in for any schutzhund titles any time soon Corvus, but I have found it great for the average dog owner!

[shoemonster]

I think if the "average" dog and owner understood more about drive, then there would be alot happier dogs around, and not dogs who drag their feet out of boredom from bad boring training

I used food drive with Ed for obedience, and we've just started prey drive for Flyball, now his confidence levels are much higher. Its done wonderful things for his nerves and cofidence, things I wouldnt have got otherwise

PTD you will love the seminar, and if you can hold off just a little its really better to see it properly, get the ideas right and start off well, I tried a few times myself, but going to the seminar really opened my eyes and had me understanding much better. I then went on to do his distance training which has been brilliant

Edited December 21, 2009 by shoemonster

[Quickasyoucan]

I think if the "average" dog and owner understood more about drive, then there would be alot happier dogs around, and not dogs who drag their feet out of boredom from bad boring training

I used food drive with Ed for obedience, and we've just started prey drive for Flyball, now his confidence levels are much higher. Its done wonderful things for his nerves and cofidence, things I wouldnt have got otherwise

PTD you will love the seminar, and if you can hold off just a little its really better to see it properly, get the ideas right and start off well, I tried a few times myself, but going to the seminar really opened my eyes and had me understanding much better. I then went on to do his distance training which has been brilliant

Too true Shoemonster, I also think there would be a lot less dogs who behaved badly pent up due to no positive outlet for their drive.

I think sometimes prey drive is viewed negatively too by people, you know my dog won't stop chasing X when it can be harnessed to more useful ends...

[shoemonster]

Yeah I agree, and most of the time I think its because they dont understand, and have an incorrect view of what it actually involves, or they want a quick fix, and harnessing these drives isnt a magic wand training method

[Cosmolo]

I agree that using drive is fabulous- for many dogs and many owners. Its important to note though that the owner should learn how to use the drive to their advantage rather than just build it and that if they're not going to do that, they're better off not building the drive! I have met a few people who did think all they needed to do was 'step one' which was of course a disaster!

Edited December 22, 2009 by Cosmolo

[Quickasyoucan]

Yeah that does seem illogical to rev the dog up and then not use it

I was thinking more though of dogs who already had strong drive responses and might just be channeling them into the wrong avenues out of frustration.

For example, with my dog we never had a problem with building drive as he already had it he just used to satisfy himself with skateboards and (on a couple of occasions) a full fledged car chasing attempt.

It was a case of all dressed up and only the wrong places to go to

ETA I also think a basic understanding of drive (whether or not you choose to use it), does give you better insight into what motivates a dog (or not), not just your own dogs but other dogs you come across.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Quickasyoucan

[Diva]

Hi Diva

If your dog has a good natural prey drive regarding small fluffy live things, then it shouldn't be too hard to transfer that interest onto something else.

You just have to make the transition slowly. Using a tug is normally the end product of gaining drive interest. They are not generally taught from the start using one. The drive is slowly transfered from anything like a bit of fur on a stick and string, to chasing a rag or frisbee, to later varying the item to something more practical like a tuggy. (or any variation that suites your dog)

Thanks for the reply dogdude. I'm pretty sure I can get her to the levels I'm after without this (I'm only after a CD) but the focus she brings to coursing would be very interesting to harness for the trial ring and I'd be learning a new skill which would be good.

Like many sighthounds her small fluffy focus isn't indiscriminate. She knows fairly well what is legimate prey and what isn't. I wonder if that makes it harder to transfer it to an object but I won't know until I try will I.

I've been thinking about what might stop me and the first is probably impatience - I can get results quicker with praise/food and I'm always inclined to take the easy way. But I'm not really in a hurry, I can keep showing her in the interim.

The second reason I hesitate is probably because she is a bit physically intimidating when really revved - I don't mean aggro, not the slightest risk of that - but I'll need to build control if I'm using frustration to intensify her focus. I usually do the opposite and make sure they know that not leaping around and getting revved too physically close to me is a rule of the house.

You can get rabbit fur tugs Diva - that might be the go for your girl. How is she with a ball?

She'll fetch it pf but only if nothing else is happening. She'd rather run alongside the dog which is chasing the ball and she would never contest for one.

With all of them I've used fur toys as reinforcers as puppies but they grow out of the interest. Their only interest in toys now is playing chase/keepie off with each other (altough the red girls takes a toy to bed ).

Thanks for the advice. I'll do some more reading and see how she responds.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Diva

[Pete.the.dog]

She'll fetch it pf but only if nothing else is happening. She'd rather run alongside the dog which is chasing the ball and she would never contest for one.

hmm yes sounds familiar. Had many a collie unneccesarily guard their precious ball from pete, without realising his interest was in them, he's such a player, it's all about the chase for him

[shoemonster]

I agree that using drive is fabulous- for many dogs and many owners. Its important to note though that the owner should learn how to use the drive to their advantage rather than just build it and that if they're not going to do that, they're better off not building the drive! I have met a few people who did think all they needed to do was 'step one' which was of course a disaster!

Totally agree, thats why I say its not a magic wands training approach, you have to follow it through completely to the end or you end up with a more hyper out of control dog than you started with

She'll fetch it pf but only if nothing else is happening. She'd rather run alongside the dog which is chasing the ball and she would never contest for one.

With all of them I've used fur toys as reinforcers as puppies but they grow out of the interest. Their only interest in toys now is playing chase/keepie off with each other (altough the red girls takes a toy to bed ).

At the start of TID you have absolutely no distractions, so the only fun choice is to play with you, there's no higher value competition around for her to want to do instead. You wouldnt even have one of your other dogs around until you were well and truely into the distractions part of it, and by then their focus on the toy is quite good

[Erny]

I think if the "average" dog and owner understood more about drive, then there would be alot happier dogs around, and not dogs who drag their feet out of boredom from bad boring training

I agree with you SM. But many "average" dog owners just want to own a dog. And have fun playing with it. And it with them. And have it respond to them when they most need it. They don't want to spend their precious extra time studying "Dog Drives 101". And I have found through my classes that they don't really have to know and understand dogs' drives, to be able to do it and simply enjoy it. The main thing that they know and understand is the structure of the game and why it is important that they train it through, and not just run madly around with a toy hoping the dog will chase it. I've had a good number of people come through my "Foundation Level" classes now, and once the people catch on to how to structure this style of 'play' and how it can be used for and in other things, you can really see their dogs' training blossum. Yet I don't even mention the word "drive" in the lessons that I give.

PTD you will love the seminar ...

Yep - you will .

... and if you can hold off just a little its really better to see it properly, get the ideas right and start off well, I tried a few times myself, but going to the seminar really opened my eyes and had me understanding much better. I then went on to do his distance training which has been brilliant

And I can vouch for how well SM and Eddie have come along .

Edited December 22, 2009 by Erny

[corvus]

Who's talking about Schutzhund here?

No one, but a lot of drive training does come from Sch, and it's not suited to just any dog.

And "gung-ho" with drive training? What do you mean?

I meant diving in and building insane amounts of drive without putting in an off switch. And attempting to build drive but going in too hard and causing a decrease in drive, or some people have suggested a bite for the wrong reasons. Going over the top so the dog stops thinking and then having to yank them back to get any sense out of them... There are certainly ways you can be too gung-ho in drive training.

Too much drive can result in a dog that loses it, and that is more stress than fun by my interpretation.

Edited December 22, 2009 by corvus

[Erny]

Too much drive can result in a dog that loses it, and that is more stress than fun by my interpretation.

The stress would come because of the dog not receiving drive satisfaction. The OP is going to K9 Force's drive workshop so we know that she will receive good tuition there. When you have control of the "drive" I don't think there can be "too much".

[shoemonster]

Thanks Erny

Yeah alot of people dont want super dog, but yet they get frustrated when their dog is destructive, or goes hyper at obedience, and they correct that excitement out of them, but you are right they dont need tro understand why to benefit from using it, I think I just wish more obedience clubs would use it rather than frown upon it (but to them its easier to correct than to harness)

If a dog has the drive, it will come out whether or not you use it, better to use it for good than evil, and once again, its not a magic wand training style, you need to stick with it, and you dont stop at the building drive, you teach the dog that they can use that drive for a positive outcome

For some dogs, my boy being a great example, he was nervous and had no confidence, we started doing the drive training and he is a different dog, confident, more relaxed (because they learn the off switch as well as the on), and just generally happier.

Edited December 23, 2009 by shoemonster

[Red Fox]

...And attempting to build drive but going in too hard and causing a decrease in drive...

What do you mean by this corvus? How can you decrease the dogs drive by working to build it ;)

[ness]

Not corvus but I wonder if its because you come across too forceful. I have watched people try and engage dogs with toys in particular and often push them to the point where the dog has switched off.

[Erny]

Not corvus but I wonder if its because you come across too forceful. I have watched people try and engage dogs with toys in particular and often push them to the point where the dog has switched off.

That normally happens when people don't action the toy in the way that prey would act. IOW, they keep shoving the toy AT the dog's face/nose, instead of teasing it away.

Also happens if people make the sessions long, instead of short.

But those two things have already been covered here.

And for the timid dogs, it happens if they make everything (the action of the toy and their own voices/body actions) too big.

That's about just having some sensitivity towards the dog in question.

[corvus]

Not corvus but I wonder if its because you come across too forceful. I have watched people try and engage dogs with toys in particular and often push them to the point where the dog has switched off.

That is what I meant, yes. I have also seen dogs that just plumb don't feel comfortable enough to play, and trying to get them to play by any method can stress them.

I've come to be cautious about drive. Mostly because people seem to like to talk about it as if it is a magic bullet without actually knowing very much about what they are doing. And I don't mean poor techniques or methods, but in a neurological sense, I guess, although I hate thinking about things in a neurological sense. I have read a lot of explanations that sound loopy to me, and I've read a lot of methodology without any attempt to explain it. In addition to that, prey and play drive seem to be used interchangeably, and that deeply bothers me. I liken them to fear and excitement. Similar sometimes, but in no way the same.

I'm not saying don't use it, I'm just saying make damn sure you're encouraging play drive and not prey drive.

Does K9 Force have any qualifications, just out of interest?

[Erny]

... prey and play drive seem to be used interchangeably, and that deeply bothers me. I liken them to fear and excitement. Similar sometimes, but in no way the same.

Your train of thought puzzles me. . Can you explain further what you mean?

I'm not saying don't use it, I'm just saying make damn sure you're encouraging play drive and not prey drive.

Nothing wrong with using prey drive to achieve the training reliability that you're after. Don't know why you're so vehemently against it. Many behaviour problems have been overcome with the use of the instinct that is there. What experiences (depth and breadth) have you had with using prey drive in training that would have you anti to using it?

Does K9 Force have any qualifications, just out of interest?

He does. I think it is on his website. Apart from formal ones, I'd suggest that a very long and broad base of experience would count as a qualification as well. Why do you ask?