Pup Bit Oh

[poodle proud]

Today our 1 yr old toy poodle bit OH on the lip and it drew blood. It was only small but in my mind a bite is a bite.

OH has a tendency to play roughly with her and get in her personal space when she is revved up. This is apparently what happened today and he has thankfully realised after today's episode that he just can't play that way with her.

I'm just worried about it happening in the future say with kids who don't really think about how they interact with dogs e.g. getting in their personal space, wanting to pick them up etc.

Do I need to be concerned about her or is it just OH that needs to stop this rough play? Ive talked to him about needing to read her cues and know when she is not having fun anymore. I don't know if this is right. I know he can stop his behaviour but I don't know if there is something I need to do with her.

I'm devestated about it and would really appreciate some advice.

Thanks in adavance,

PP

[Nekhbet]

smack OH over the back of the head. It is totally his fault and is teaching the dog horrific manners

ask him if he would do the same with a dog that was 60kg. That usually gets the cogs churning No he has to stop, you are right if a child plays rough the dog will go into 'oh we play like this' mode as it thinks its OK to go that far. It's not aggression at all, just bad manners

[persephone]

Well, hopefully your OH has learned a lesson.

What general rules/training does your dog have?

Just as my personal view...

he shouldn't have to rely on reading her cues, so much as to not get her in a state where she may bite!!

Simple.

edit to add.

if there are children present..it is YOUR responsibilty to supervise the interaction, and never let them play rough with her.

Edited December 20, 2009 by persephone

[poodlefan]

Rough play produces rough responses.

Slap him over the head with a rolled up newspaper. We get the dogs we raise. If you want a gentle dog, raise her gently.

My toy poodle would defend herself if cornered and worried. Our job is to stop that happening.

Teach her to tug if games are what you want.. just remember that she only weighs a few kg.

Edited December 20, 2009 by poodlefan

[poodle proud]

Thankyou Nekhbet, Persephone and Poodlefan for your replies

smack OH over the back of the head. It is totally his fault and is teaching the dog horrific manners

OH has been smacked on the back of the head as instructed. I really think it has been a wake-up call for him. Don't get me wong he is not malicious or mean in any way but he just seemed to think that after playing games where she gets revved up that she would then be content being held in his arms or that she would suddenly be up for licking his face in a calm, gentle manner. I don't think we will see a repeat of this.

What general rules/training does your dog have?

Rules- they have to sit/drop for everything, food, leaving/coming back for walks, treats.

- They have to be calm before I put on or take off their leads, let them out of the car etc.

- They are allowed in most rooms of the house and on the lounge and bed. I think I will have to boot them off the bed though as midnight has started growling when she is moved off or over on the bed. I just wasnt sure whether I should boot them both off or just her, is this fair etc?

- I don't tolerate anymore than a warning bark but it is harder to get midnight to take me seriously sometimes whereas Osca obeys straight away. I need to work on this but I'm not sure how.

Training-

-Middi has done the basic obedience course and goes to a motivation and control class every second week or so. I practice with them during the week but it's hard to train two dogs at the same time for any length of time. I should separate them and would achieve more doing this but I'm not sure what to do with the other one. They dont have crates but I suppose I could leave them outside or in another part of the house? It sounds ridiculous but I worry about upsetting them.

if there are children present..it is YOUR responsibilty to supervise the interaction, and never let them play rough with her.

Yep totally understand this. The children next door I am referring are always supervised with the dogs and are told when they need to calm down. They dont rough her up at all but dont see her getting revved up when they run/squeal etc. I am very cautious about any interaction they have with her.

Rough play produces rough responses.

We get the dogs we raise. If you want a gentle dog, raise her gently.

Absolutely what we want. This is really OH's first dog and Middi just wants to play constantly so I think he figured he'd keep going as long as she'd want to but it then seems to develop into a competition of sorts between them. Middi is much more determined and strong willed than Osca and we don't have much experience with dogs with her temperament. But I really do want to bring out the best in her.

[Nekhbet]

dont worry they all do it ... when I got my dogue I said to ex do NOT encourage him to jump up on you. Well being the idiot he was he did .. then complained when the dog pushed him almost through the plaster

rolled up newspapers are for OH's it seems

[poodlefan]

Middi is much more determined and strong willed than Osca and we don't have much experience with dogs with her temperament. But I really do want to bring out the best in her.

Tell your OH to consider her as a Rottweiler on the inside. A lot of small dogs are as tough as teak and need the same rules and boundaries as their larger cousins.

Toy poodles need to be treated like 'real dogs' despite their appearance. Sure you can get some softies but many Toy Poodles are feisty little tykes.

They are very capable sports dogs PP. Maybe some obedience or agility would channel her energy (and OH's desire for games) into a more positive path. He'd not be the first guy to do dog sports with a poodle either. Witness Gidget the Mini Poodle and her handler at the World Dog Games.

[Erny]

I teach "rough play" gradually - more like a training/behaviour lesson, rather than rough play for just the sake of it.

I start it when the pup is old enough to have learnt (through my 'training') to have some sort of self-control. I start slow and gentle - almost like playing at rough-housing in slow motion. I can stop the play when I've reached the point where my dog gets a bit too rough and I always play 'one decible lower' (if that makes sense) than his 'worst'. In other words, I don't play so rough with him that I promote roughness from him. Play stops when his roughness exceeds mine. Actually, my boy knows the words "don't bite". He makes me giggle because if, in play, he forgets himself and I see him going to use his mouth, I say "don't bite me" and he often turns his open mouth into a yawn ..... as though he was never going to put his mouth on me in the first place.

I'm conscious of when the play is about to get too rough BEFORE it ACTUALLY gets too rough, and I alter MY play to temper that of my dog's.

I think rough play is a good thing - as a teaching tool first, then when BOTH dog AND human know the rules and how to play the game, as fun. But this is not what to do with a very young puppy (who have attention spans of nits and don't have the mental capacity for too much self-control at that stage) or with a dog who doesn't yet understand first that putting teeth on skin is not what you do.

To rough play with a dog without thought or consciousness as to who is training who to do what, then you're asking for trouble.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Erny

[poodlefan]

I think rough play is a good thing - as a teaching tool first, then when BOTH dog AND human know the rules and how to play the game, as fun. But this is not what to do with a very young puppy (who have attention spans of nits and don't have the mental capacity for too much self-control at that stage) or with a dog who doesn't yet understand first that putting teeth on skin is not what you do.

To rough play with a dog without thought or consciousness as to who is training who to do what, then you're asking for trouble.

This dog is 12 months old Erny. I think its possible that PP's OH either revved her up to the point of senseless biting or triggered her into self defence.

[Erny]

This dog is 12 months old Erny. I think its possible that PP's OH either revved her up to the point of senseless biting or triggered her into self defence.

Yes ..... I went off on a little tangent of my own there, for a bit, although I think the points I've raised remain relevant. I'm imagining a dog who hasn't learnt HOW to play rough with HUMAN, or, through the incorrect actions of the human, has learnt to play it wrong.

My thought also was the possibility that it was semi-accidental. I've had my lip catch the tooth of my dog (complete accident) and it split my lip and swelled up. And his mouth wasn't even open.

And yes, you're right, PF. If the razzing up was too much, it might have been a defence response or just OH taking it to that "senseless" level.

And/or we might have a dog who thinks IT controls the game, rather than the other way around.

Hard to tell without having seen it, but by all accounts, sounds like OH invited it. Thing is, we can teach our dogs how to play appropriately with us, even in "rough house".

ETA: To me, "rough housing" is a bit of an extension to basic handling. As with any training, if it's not done right though, it can go pear-shaped.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Erny

[poodle proud]

Thanks again everyone.

Well OH has been very careful when playing with middi and it hasn't even come close to a repeat.

I think Erny you are right when you suggested that perhaps she thinks she is controlling the game and that OH has taught her to play wrong. That and the fact that its just common sense that a dog that has been roughed up even in play isnt suddenly going to switch and want to lick you. Oh put his face near hers and it just seemes like she thought he was still playing and so she nipped him.

PF we plan to get her into agility in the new year. She is a little turbo-charged gazelle so I'm hoping she loves it.

Nekhbet I know how you feel. I have been saying since we got her, don't rough her up, you are teachingh her bad habits, play nicely etc. But as that saying says "everyone has to learn for themselves that the stove is hot". Well OH seems to well and truly have learnt it.

Just on another note if anyone is able to respond. Middi does growl at us when we try to move her when shes on the bed. Do I need to revoke all bed privileges indefenitely or for a time? And if I do would it be better to kick them both off the bed or it doesnt matter?

Thanks.

[Erny]

Just on another note if anyone is able to respond. Middi does growl at us when we try to move her when shes on the bed. Do I need to revoke all bed privileges indefenitely or for a time? And if I do would it be better to kick them both off the bed or it doesnt matter?

Thanks.

Given the original point of your OP, and now this added bit of information ...... you might be better off with getting someone in to assess your relationship with your dog. Or more particularly, your dogs relationship with you. A consult will cover more than just one of these issues at a time, and will reach the core reason why these things are happening (ie leadership issue).

Sounds to me that there is more 'controlling' by your dog than first meets the eye.

In the meantime, don't have her on the bed. Full stop.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Erny

[persephone]

Given the original point of your OP, and now this added bit of information ...... you might be better off with getting someone in to assess your relationship with your dog. Or more particularly, your dogs relationship with you. A consult will cover more than just one of these issues at a time, and will reach the core reason why these things are happening (ie leadership issue).

Sounds to me that there is more 'controlling' by your dog than first meets the eye.

In the meantime, don't have her on the bed. Full stop.

What erny says .

It reads as if you do have to start again with your relationship... after assessment, and with the help of, a good trainer.

[poodle proud]

Thanks Erny and Persephone. I was afraid you were going to say that

I have broached the issue of a trainer with OH after the original incident happened and he says I can do what I want but bascially he would rather we lift our game with her, get her off the bed, and show more leadership etc first. He has the idea that that is what a trainer will tell us anyway. And while I can stomp my feet about it Id rather not. I'd rather have info to take to him and show him the benefits.

For future reference does anyone know a good trainer in Brisbane? Is there a general cost I should expect or does it vary widely.

Also until I get OH to come around with the trainer issue what can I do?

[Erny]

I have broached the issue of a trainer with OH after the original incident happened and he says I can do what I want but bascially he would rather we lift our game with her, get her off the bed, and show more leadership etc first.

Sounds to me that your OH has the right idea. It is a matter of setting boundaries; consistency; calm assertiveness; and having your dog doing things on your terms, not the dog's.

He has the idea that that is what a trainer will tell us anyway.

Yes - it would be. It's what to do and how you apply it that a behaviourist would be able to assess as being suitable.

And while I can stomp my feet about it Id rather not. I'd rather have info to take to him and show him the benefits.

Not sure about this comment . You'd rather not follow the 'leadership' route? Or you'd rather not go it alone? ETA: Oh ..... I get you. You'd rather not "stomp your feet" about getting a trainer/behaviourist out; you'd rather convince him that getting a trainer/behaviourist out would be an advantage so that your OH is like minded with you. Right?

You may be able to manage to 'go it alone', but the problem is this : your dog has already warned you by growling. If you do the wrong things at the wrong times, there is potential for the growling to escalate, by the mere fact that you have challenged your dog's perceived position in the pack, too quickly, too strongly. If your dog 'wins' on a growl, the behaviour becomes more and more ingrained and more readily exhibited. If the growl escalates to a bite, you then have an additional undesirable learnt behaviour. You do need to be assertive, but you need to do it in ways that will not have the dog rising to a challenge in such a way that it learns even worse behaviour than it is already exhibiting. No one over the internet can tell you wisely and safely exactly what to do and when, simply because we do not know your dog; we don't know you; and more particularly because we cannot see to assess where the relationship is between you and your dog. The things I've mentioned below are fairly benign ways to shift a balance in leadership, so they are usually fairly safe to apply. Whether more than that will be required no one could completely say. But you could start with those things if you wish.

Disadvantage is that if more than this is required, you are only delaying. And while you delay, your dog's belief in its rights around the household (and how he deals with it when those rights are breached) become more and more ingrained.

For future reference does anyone know a good trainer in Brisbane? Is there a general cost I should expect or does it vary widely.

Not sure the proximity, but Jane Harper is a trainer often recommended for Queensland. I think she is in the Brisbane area, from memory.

Also until I get OH to come around with the trainer issue what can I do?

Get your dog to work for everything it receives, before it receives it.

Set rules/boundaries. And don't err from them. Calmly and assertively insist on them.

NILIF ("Nothing in Life is Free" program) - google it and it will give you details. Basically, it is what I've just mentioned. IE Your dog doing something for you first before you do something for the dog.

TOT ("Triangle of Temptation") - this is pinned to the top of this forum.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Erny

[poodle proud]

And while I can stomp my feet about it Id rather not. I'd rather have info to take to him and show him the benefits.

Not sure about this comment . You'd rather not follow the 'leadership' route? Or you'd rather not go it alone?

Sorry what I meant was I'd rather not demand we get a trainer in as I want to encourage his participation. If he wasnt truly agreeable to having someone come in I think it would put him off implementing any of the training.

Not sure the proximity, but Jane Harper is a trainer often recommended for Queensland. I think she is in the Brisbane area, from memory.

Get your dog to work for everything it receives, before it receives it.

Set rules/boundaries. And don't err from them. Calmly and assertively insist on them.

NILIF ("Nothing in Life is Free" program) - google it and it will give you details. Basically, it is what I've just mentioned. IE Your dog doing something for you first before you do something for the dog.

TOT ("Triangle of Temptation") - this is pinned to the top of this forum.

Thanks. I have read up a bit on NILIF and have been trying to do more of that these past couple of weeks. I will read TOT also.

What would I do if she growls at us? OH thinks give her time out in the bathroom but Ive read elsewhere that dogs don't understand timeout

Thanks again for your valuable info.

[Erny]

What would I do if she growls at us? OH thinks give her time out in the bathroom but Ive read elsewhere that dogs don't understand timeout

Thanks again for your valuable info.

I made a few edits to my post since you read.

No one can safely tell you what to do if she growls at you (sorry ..... I referred to "her" as a "he" in the previous post). This is the value of a trainer/behaviourist. They can assess what you can safely do in those circumstances. There is potentially not just ONE thing to do. It might depend on situation at the very moment of growling and the reason for the growling.

Sin-bin might or might not mean anything to your dog. Don't know as we don't know your dog. This is where the trainer/behaviourist actually seeing you and your dog together would be able to tell more. Much as a Doctor would be able to diagnose a health condition on seeing the patient yet would quite rightly reserve that opinion if consultation was by telephone only.

If this were a mere (eg) toileting issue, we could continue to give you helpful tips on what to do and what not to do.

But aggression is not something to play around with.

[poodlefan]

But aggression is not something to play around with.

Agreed. Growling is a warning. Fail to heed the warning and you may be bitten. Better to deal with the underlying cause of the aggression - and that requires a home visit from someone who knows what they're doing.

In the meantime, call her off the bed or whereever and reward her for complying. No need to provoke confrontation when a bit of planning can avoid it.

[Erny]

Thanks. I have read up a bit on NILIF and have been trying to do more of that these past couple of weeks. I will read TOT also.

This is where it is important. "Trying" I don't think I quite understand other than it makes me think that there continues to be inconsistencies. Your dog wants something? Make her do something for you first. Each time . You need to have it so your dog actually believes in what you are doing. And if you're not consistent, that is not likely to happen. In fact, inconsistencies both do not work and also make the problem harder to resolve later on.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Erny

[JudyG]

Thanks Erny and Persephone. I was afraid you were going to say that

I have broached the issue of a trainer with OH after the original incident happened and he says I can do what I want but bascially he would rather we lift our game with her, get her off the bed, and show more leadership etc first. He has the idea that that is what a trainer will tell us anyway. And while I can stomp my feet about it Id rather not. I'd rather have info to take to him and show him the benefits.

For future reference does anyone know a good trainer in Brisbane? Is there a general cost I should expect or does it vary widely.

Also until I get OH to come around with the trainer issue what can I do?

Many people on this sight recommend Jane Harper 0f Dogs on Track