Advice On Fighting Between My Dogs

[spanky]

Ok, so some background to the story...

Griffin is an 8yr old male french bulldog. He came to live with us in Feb 08. In Aug 08 he was diagnosed with renal failure. From the info I've managed to track down he came from an abusive home (directed at him from both humans and dogs). He does not like male intact dogs, staffys in particular set him off, he is questionable with most dogs bigger than himself. Griffin is quite comfortable being around dogs that aren't interested in him and that aren't seen as a challenger for the boss dog position. He is possessive of me / toys / anything he decides is his.

Callista is a 2yr old female french bulldog. She came to live with us in Jul 08. She has some existing issues related to her back, but they don't really present a challenge to her on a day to day basis. She's a very drivey dog and is being trained (albit poorly) by me using K9 Force's TID package. She was quite shy when we got her, but with time and gentle socialisation she has really come out of her shell and is a beautiful natured dog. Quite alert, which is unusual for a frenchie and is inclined to bark at people walking past the house / coming to the front door.

When we first got Griffin there was no overtly aggressive displays from him (I'm sure there were, but I had no idea what they were at the time) and so we decided to get another frenchie. From the moment Callista stepped into the house Griffin was not a happy dog. She was not allowed within a couple of metres of me and it was not long before they had their first fight. We had a behaviourist come and visit us within a week and using NILF, TOT and other suggested techniques we had improvement. Earlier this year it was at a point that they could go 4-5mnths without a fight. The OH and I became excellent at picking the signals from Griffin and nipping any issues in the bud.

Recently Griffin has been sick, due to the renal failure, and during this time he was beaten by Callista in a fight for the first time and he submitted to her. Ever since then the fighting has stepped up to a whole new level and while the techniques still work, the intensity and frequency of fights is not getting any better.

When they fight, if Callista submits she will wait until Griffin lets her up and then she will start it again and again and again until she wins and gets Griffin to submit. We do our best to separate them, but sometimes it's not easy when your on your own and they just won't let go of the leg / ear / jowl in their mouth. I've got a really nice bite bruise (that is slowly fading) to show that even once I'm holding one the other doesn't want to stop... particularly if I've grabbed Griffin... Callista is a very good jumper.

So, I guess I'm looking for suggestions on how to improve the dominance struggle we're experiencing... I will contact K9 Force and Jane to discuss the issue, but I'm just searching for wider opinions.

To add to the mix, I'm 9wks pregnant and both the OH and I would like to fix the issue before I get too fat to do much and before we bring a baby home.

I'm happy to answer any further questions to give more info on the situation, but I will be without computer access today, so won't be able to answer until tonight.

[Sandra777]

No advice other than to go back to K9 Force if you were happy with their methods before - except KEEP THEM SEPARATED UNTIL YOU FIND A SOLUTION. Allowing them to continue to mix and fight on and off is only risking serious injury to each other and you, as well as only making the behaviour even more deepset. Be prepared for the possibility that you will have to keep them separated permanently.

[huski]

No advice sorry Erin

Huge congratulations on your pregnancy I'm sure between Jane and K9 and some of the experienced posters here, you'll get it sorted out

[Aidan]

Crate and rotate, or use baby gates in your home. You've got a sick dog and the stress will not be helping him at all, his health is your main priority (after yours, which is even more important now! Congratulations!)

Whilst you can improve the situation and get better control around your dogs, the likelihood of completely resolving this issue is very slim, particularly with the other things going on in your life. On the evidence, the techniques that you are using are not working particularly well, the problem has got worse over time. They are good techniques for making life predictable and consistent with clear boundaries, so I would not abandon them, but they will not resolve this sort of issue on their own.

What suggests to you that this is a dominance issue? Based on what you have said (which is not a complete picture so I won't make assumptions) the dogs just don't feel secure around each other, which probably has something to do with Griffin's history prior to coming to you. That would be understandable.

Anything you can do to improve their feelings of security around each other, or at least your control over them, will help the situation but in the meantime you will need a strategy to keep them safe and minimise stress for them both. Crate and rotate and barriers are a cheap and effective way to achieve this. An example of an exercise you can use to improve their feelings of security around each other is to have both dogs on either side of a baby gate while you alternate stroking or feeding of either, so that attention to one is a predictor of attention for the other. Having them stay in a relaxed drop while you do this is even better, if you can work towards that. It is a small, but important step.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Aidan

[kiesha09]

Are both dogs desexed?

[spanky]

No advice other than to go back to K9 Force if you were happy with their methods before - except KEEP THEM SEPARATED UNTIL YOU FIND A SOLUTION. Allowing them to continue to mix and fight on and off is only risking serious injury to each other and you, as well as only making the behaviour even more deepset. Be prepared for the possibility that you will have to keep them separated permanently.

This is the interesting thing. From what we can figure out if we aren't around they don't have an issue. They become distrested when separated (ie. take one to the vet and leave one at home) and 90% of the time just kick around together with no problems. In a sense the crate brings its own set of issues as Griffin becomes possessive of it. Looks like rotation of the dogs it is for the time being though.

No advice sorry Erin

Huge congratulations on your pregnancy I'm sure between Jane and K9 and some of the experienced posters here, you'll get it sorted out

Thanks Bec, we're still getting over the shock of it Think a visit to / from Jane is a must do.

Are both dogs desexed?

Yes. Griffin around 4, Callista at 12months

[spanky]

What suggests to you that this is a dominance issue? Based on what you have said (which is not a complete picture so I won't make assumptions) the dogs just don't feel secure around each other, which probably has something to do with Griffin's history prior to coming to you. That would be understandable.

I say dominance / possessive, K9 Force would say rank aggressive.

The behaviourist that has visited us and spent time with the dogs agrees Griffin has aggression issues based on his desire to be the dominant dog. If Callista (or any dog) is getting attention from me Griffin will run over and put himself between me and the other dog. If I discipline Callista, Griffin takes that as a sign to go and tell her off (particularly if she won't do as told... she's a bit stubborn).

I guess it's hard without seeing them, but they play fight, do zoomies, sleep curled up together, chew toys right beside each other, happily wait for the other to finish eating before changing bowls and generally follow each other around... which makes it so annoying that the fights happen, because at all other times they are best friends.

[Aidan]

I guess it's hard without seeing them, but they play fight, do zoomies, sleep curled up together, chew toys right beside each other, happily wait for the other to finish eating before changing bowls and generally follow each other around... which makes it so annoying that the fights happen, because at all other times they are best friends.

Hopefully the behaviourist will be able to help you identify all the triggers so that you can either avoid those situations or condition new responses to them.

Griffin sounds like a resource guarder to me (his crate, and you), which is not necessarily a dominance or rank issue. Submissive dogs will guard resources from the alpha, it's a question of getting what they want not necessarily trying to gain a higher rank. Sometimes we can spin our wheels implementing rank reduction programs when we could be addressing issues directly, such as teaching Griffin to be calm and relaxed while Callista approaches his crate (for e.g) If it does turn out to be a rank issue (I'm not saying it isn't), then this will address that problem also.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I think Aidan is definitely onto something there.

The DVD 'Crate Games' may be of great benefit to you if they could spend more time in their open crates (one each) with you in your living area and less time worrying about who is closest to mum and dad.

It is hard when you have a sick dog, I think there are dynamics going on there that we will never understand. I know I felt like that when I had four dogs and one of them with heart failure...things just changed between the pack.

The key may be to help Griffin with his low tolerance thresholds and teaching calm was what I first thought when I read your post but couldn't put it into a well constructed answer during the week.

I know Frenchie's love to be house dogs but are they doing something everyday in regards to exercise and brain work? Out for a sniffing walk and stuffed kongs (in seperate rooms or crates, then removed once finished) or tricks training for each of them? I have a 10yr old Stafford who has lots of arthritis so I've had to modify her activity to heated pool swimming, she LOVES it and I find she has to do something to stimulate her or she has a tendency to be narky with the others.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller

[Monah]

Agree with Aidan and toller.

We had very similar issues (not actual fights, but quick argy bargy by one dog) and have resolved them (although I would never say cured)

in the ways mentioned, and I know you have Jane etc. to also ask and she was wonderfully helpful with us. I'm sure she will be ongoing via emails etc. with lots of help daily if you need it.

On a lighter note, OMG!! congratulations Sparky, wonderful news, fabulous.

Your Frenchies are so lovely, I hope you are able to help them with their problem. Merry Christmas and all the best for the New Year!!xxxxxxxx

[spanky]

Hopefully the behaviourist will be able to help you identify all the triggers so that you can either avoid those situations or condition new responses to them.

Griffin sounds like a resource guarder to me (his crate, and you), which is not necessarily a dominance or rank issue. Submissive dogs will guard resources from the alpha, it's a question of getting what they want not necessarily trying to gain a higher rank. Sometimes we can spin our wheels implementing rank reduction programs when we could be addressing issues directly, such as teaching Griffin to be calm and relaxed while Callista approaches his crate (for e.g) If it does turn out to be a rank issue (I'm not saying it isn't), then this will address that problem also.

Thanks, that gives me another angle to think about. I'm going to go buy a couple of soft crates today... easier on the floors... and set them up for the dogs.

I know Frenchie's love to be house dogs but are they doing something everyday in regards to exercise and brain work? Out for a sniffing walk and stuffed kongs (in seperate rooms or crates, then removed once finished) or tricks training for each of them? I have a 10yr old Stafford who has lots of arthritis so I've had to modify her activity to heated pool swimming, she LOVES it and I find she has to do something to stimulate her or she has a tendency to be narky with the others.

Honestly their exercise and training has been reduced lately, partly due to the heat and my morning (read all-day) sickness. I'll try to pick it back up this week and get stuck into the obedience training. Callista loves the TID that I do with her.

Agree with Aidan and toller.

We had very similar issues (not actual fights, but quick argy bargy by one dog) and have resolved them (although I would never say cured)

in the ways mentioned, and I know you have Jane etc. to also ask and she was wonderfully helpful with us. I'm sure she will be ongoing via emails etc. with lots of help daily if you need it.

On a lighter note, OMG!! congratulations Sparky, wonderful news, fabulous.

Your Frenchies are so lovely, I hope you are able to help them with their problem. Merry Christmas and all the best for the New Year!!xxxxxxxx

I've sent off an email to Jane and Steve, but I know they are both probably really busy at this time of year so I'm just waiting to hear back.

Thanks for the congrats, it is a bit of a surprise, but we're both very happy and looking forward to being parents of a real child