Rspca And Policing Dog Laws

[Are You Serious Jo]

This same problem is occurring with the RSPCA there is no independent body to investigate complaints.

There actually is. But most people don't know how to use the system.

Can someone else ask mita to explain how this is done?

[mita]

I know DPI hasn't disappeared (thank god for that since I work there lol), but the name is changing and they are in the process of figuring out what that name will be - the problem is that with name changes comes a great deal of uncertaintly in the public as to what the new department incorporates particularly when employees are told to no longer refer to themselves as DPI&F (I think we are allowed to put QLd Primary Industries & Fisheries in the transition stage). IMO the state governments are far more unstable than federal government I suppose state is better than nothing though.

Thank god, you've still got your job. Don't worry, tho'. Most people don't know that the actual responsibility for pet welfare/cruelty lies with DPI Minister, anyway. So if it changes name, they still won't know!

Edited December 16, 2009 by mita

[dogslife]

This same problem is occurring with the RSPCA there is no independent body to investigate complaints.

There actually is. But most people don't know how to use the system.

Can someone else ask mita to explain how this is done?

I also would like to know how to use the system.

I was involved in the Rozzie matter and none of us could find out who to report the problems to.

edit cause I can't spell.

Edited December 16, 2009 by dogslife

[Alyosha]

If the police or similar had some powers they could have come over and made sure that the dog at least had water and impound it - much kinder than leaving it in the full sun all afternoon. This is not an isolated incident I'm sure - this will be happening Australia wide but it is exacerbated here by cross-border anomalies.

Police have full powers under prevention of cruelty to animals Act in NSW and it's interstate equivalents. But they too are restricted by jurisdiction issues in croos border issues. You could have called the police in Wondonga to attend.

[Souff]

Lol Mita the problem with that is that QLD no longer has a department of primary industries, it's very up in the air as to what it's going to be called but now it comes under the Department of employment, economic development and innovation, people are finding it hard enough to fit primary industries into that let alone incorporating pets as well. Personally I think it should be a federal department with state branches because as we see with DPI and DEEDI you've only got to have some pollie feel the need to 'reinvent the wheel' and it throws everything into turmoil

Primary Industries hasn't disappeared, WH. It's carried all its present reponsibilties, including animal welfare law enforcement, under a 'master' dpt. It still has its own Minister.

As in:

The State of Queensland (Primary Industries and Fisheries within the Department of Employment, Economic Development and Innovation) 1995-2009.

Same in Victoria, animals welfare law is the responsibility of the Dpt of Agriculture & Forestry (is Fisheries in there, too?)....which is under the 'master' Dpt of Primary Industries.

It's not a case of being hard to fit 'pets in'. It's their responsiblitly under the law. But they get off the hook because most of the community don't know that.....& think that it's the reponsibility of the RSPCAs. No....they're only agents.

Your federal idea is interesting. I'll think about that.

Frankly, I think the RSPCAs should walk away from law enforcement. The world is too sophisticated & the laws too all- encompassing now, to be left to a charity with handfuls of inspectors. No way can expectations be met.

Anyway there's present conflict of interest, for RSPCAs, between advocacy (wanting new laws or laws to change) & enforcing current law.

I have looked into the idea of animal welfare being administered federally but unfortunately it would take a re-write of the Australian constitution for that to happen. It has to be administered by the states. However that is not to say that there cannot be a Federal advisory body that ensured that all states were operating with the same instruments. At the moment they are not.

NCCAW is the federal body that we currently have, unless it has been re-named again, but in itself is not accessible to breeders.

The charity cannot continue to play policeman, and the state governments MUST talk directly to dog breeders again.

Pre 1999, they used to do this. No more blanket legislation for our varied creatures who have such a variety of needs.

The tide will turn, but dog breeders per se must take their turn at the oars, in the form of speaking up and demanding proper consultation with their state governments. Nobody else is going to do it for you.

As a result of one breeders pain, some very good work has been done in the last week and this can be built on. Keep that momentum.

Souff

[Trisven13]

If the police or similar had some powers they could have come over and made sure that the dog at least had water and impound it - much kinder than leaving it in the full sun all afternoon. This is not an isolated incident I'm sure - this will be happening Australia wide but it is exacerbated here by cross-border anomalies.

Police have full powers under prevention of cruelty to animals Act in NSW and it's interstate equivalents. But they too are restricted by jurisdiction issues in croos border issues. You could have called the police in Wondonga to attend.

Well there you go - I didn't know that. Will definitely do that next time it becomes an issue.

[Steve]

Mita - If you know how people can report what they feel is unfair treatment to an independent body please tell us.

[sandgrubber]

Police have full powers under prevention of cruelty to animals Act in NSW and it's interstate equivalents. But they too are restricted by jurisdiction issues in croos border issues. You could have called the police in Wondonga to attend.

Police have these powers, but that doesn't guarantee that they are willing to exercise the powers they have. I think it's in the 'too hard' basket for a lot of police, and they'd much rather shunt responsibility off to the RSPCA or . . . in our area . . . the Rangers. Domestic disputes and child welfare give many police enough headaches without taking on animal welfare.

Edited December 16, 2009 by sandgrubber

[Erny]

As a result of one breeders pain, some very good work has been done in the last week and this can be built on. Keep that momentum.

Agree, Souff.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Still hoping mita will share her secret recipe with us, there are a few people who'd like to be able to commence and am just waiting for how to do it.

[Steve]

When you come into someone's castle and take their family away people are going to get ticked off. When you

put their family to sleep without counsel, any kind of approval or any process or a second opinion, say what you will about their condition and destroy the evidence people are going to get ticked off. When you take away a person's power and give them no way to protest over their treatment and that of their animal's people are going to get ticked off.When you make it so expensive to try to stick it out until you get to a court case which makes people plead guilty when they aren't people are going to get ticked off.

When you allocate so much power to a group which leaves the people they are dealing with in such an unequal situation with the potential for corruption especially when they are actively working against the very groups they are policing it has created a huge problem.

How on earth do you justify a situation where an older lady who has never done anything illegal in her life is sitting peacefully in her home watching the telly surrounded by her healthy,clean, well groomed, well fed canine family and a team of cops, RSPCA, vets, and camera crew arrive at the door demanding entry, searching her home and pushing for answers.She is alone, intimidated and frightened and because she has attended dog shows with some of her dogs which have been debarked her animals are bundled up and taken out. No one will tell her where they are, she has no clue what her rights are and how she will defend her family.Sure she broke the law but its not equal to an accusation of terrorism or drug trafficking, she isnt stubbing her cigarettes out on them and yet thats how she has been treated. If they came to check if the dogs had been debarked and knew they needed an expert witness why didnt they bring him with them so the dogs didnt have to be locked up some place no one can know about for 2 weeks? You take away her privacy, dignity and her family but worse you take away her sense of security and her rights. People who love their animals want to be with them when they are being examined, or placed in stressful and different situations. Why didnt they her go with them? Why didnt they offer her the ability to have her own vet there to be a witness for their examinations? Why didnt they just say where they were going with them?

We all know that while those dogs are some place where their owner cant even know where they are any number of people could have said almost anything about them and the owner is a sitting duck. Worms so bad they had to be pts, filthy, dirty un groomed, too skinny , eye infections, ear infections, dehydrated, and before you know it there can be a stack of cruelty and neglect charges if the vet has an ego problem or the ranger hates their hair colour. Even if that NEVER , ever happened and every single case was fair and we could be sure that there wasnt some one involved who was unable to deal fairly - Its not SEEN to be fair and until it is people are going to be frightened, outraged, paranoid and sooner or later they will revolt.

Give us a system where we FEEL we have the ability to be heard and defend ourselves and our animals and where we dont FEEL threatened and helpless against goliath. Whether we have that already or not it's not counted because we dont FEEL like we do and Thats why people get so upset about the RSPCA policing animal welfare. Justified or not - that's the way it is and it gets worse every day.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Steve

[Trisven13]

I thought I'd better come in and say, very happily, that the RSPCA Inspector came and had a look at the Rottweiler and are going to prosecute.

ETA - and I've also just been told that the RSPCA President at Albury is disgusted that someone is being prosecuted for debarking - I'm surprised I won't lie but pleasantly surprised. Onya Arthur!!!

Edited December 17, 2009 by Trisven13

[Erny]

Steve - An excellent summation of events as well as of the emotion that is created in us at the hands of the RSPCA.

[wardown]

Steve**Just wish I had the ability to put things into words in such a sustinct manner**

[Souff]

When you come into someone's castle and take their family away people are going to get ticked off. When you

put their family to sleep without counsel, any kind of approval or any process or a second opinion, say what you will about their condition and destroy the evidence people are going to get ticked off. When you take away a person's power and give them no way to protest over their treatment and that of their animal's people are going to get ticked off.When you make it so expensive to try to stick it out until you get to a court case which makes people plead guilty when they aren't peopel are going to get ticked off.

When you allocate so much power to a group which leaves the people they are dealing with in such an unequal situation with the potential for corruption especially when they are actively working against the very groups they are policing it has created a huge problem.

How on earth do you justify a situation where an older lady who has never done anything illegal in her life is sitting peacefully in her home watching the telly surrounded by her healthy,clean, well groomed, well fed canine family and a team of cops, RSPCA, vets, and camera crew arrive at the door demanding entry, searching her home and pushing for answers.She is alone, intimidated and frightened and because she has attended dog shows with some of her dogs which have been debarked her animals are bundled up and taken out. No one will tell her where they are, she has no clue what her rights are and how she will defend her family.Sure she broke the law but its not equal to an accusation of terrorism or drug trafficking, she isnt stubbing her cigarettes out on them and yet thats how she has been treated. If they came to check if the dogs had been debarked and knew they needed an expert witness why didnt they bring him with them so the dogs didnt have to be locked up some place no one can know about for 2 weeks? You take away her privacy, dignity and her family but worse you take away her sense of security and her rights. Peopel who love their animals want to be with them when they are being examined, or placed in stressful and different situations. Why didnt they her go with them? Why didnt they offer her the ability to have her own vet there to be a witness for their examinations? Why didnt they just say where they were going with them?

We all know that while those dogs are some place where their owner cant even know where they are any number of people could have said almost anything about them and the owner is a sitting duck. Worms so bad they had to be pts, filthy, dirty un groomed, too skinny , eye infections, ear infections, dehydrated, and before you know it there can be a stack of cruelty and neglect charges if the vet has an ego problem or the ranger hates their hair colour. Even if that NEVER , ever happened and every single case was fair and we could be sure that there wasnt some one involved who was unable to deal fairly - Its not SEEN to be fair and until it is people are going to be frightened, outraged, paranoid and sooner or later they will revolt.

Give us a system where we FEEL we have the ability to be heard and defend ourselves and our animals and where we dont FEEL threatened and helpless against goliath. Whether we have that already or not it's not counted because we dont FEEL like we do and Thats why people get so upset about the RSPCA policing animal welfare. Justified or not - that's the way it is and it gets worse every day.

And if I can simply add, all of the above did not happen in Somalia; it didn't happen in Chinese dominated Tibet; and it wasn't a raid carried out by the Taliban in the remote villages of Afghanistan.

It all happened - with full approval of the Victorian Government - in our once democratic country, in a sleepy Victorian town not too far from the great city of Melbourne that was home to our first democratically elected Federal parliament. How far we have strayed from the democratic principles laid down then!

Every politician in Victoria should hang their head in shame, for allowing the democratic rights of Australians to be ripped away and replaced with legislation that reads like something Robert Gabriel Mogabe had put together and is policed in a style that he would have been proud of.

Souff

Edited December 17, 2009 by Souff

[Erny]

And Souff

[Muttaburra]

If they came to check if the dogs had been debarked and knew they needed an expert witness why didnt they bring him with them so the dogs didnt have to be locked up some place no one can know about for 2 weeks?

Yes, that has occurred to me too.

It doesn't seem very fair.

[Jed]

FAIR? FAIR?

Fair is a joke.

Very well said, Steve and Souff.

This is the type of thing terrorists expect, not elderly ladies of good character keeping a few dogs for a hobby.

I too would like to know the avenue for review.

[asal]

FAIR? FAIR?

Fair is a joke.

Very well said, Steve and Souff.

This is the type of thing terrorists expect, not elderly ladies of good character keeping a few dogs for a hobby.

I too would like to know the avenue for review.

well in theory there is, you write to the relevant Minister for Agriculture. nicely, polietly and WAIT. then you writ again, again, again n when he gets tired of fobbing you off BINGO!

only took me TWO YEARS for him to finally tell me WHY. stringy had to suffer.

although his assurance that long as i adhered to the code of practice i had nothing to fear from the rspca, assured me hedidnt know what he was talking about.

there was nothing in the code of practice he sent me that applied to my dog needing to be seized.

soo when i pointed this out and asked then how is adhering to the book you sent any protection, that and subsequent requests must have ended up in the too hard basket. never even got any, "thanks for your letter, the minister is looking into it" fob off replies anymore?

but hey, legally hes the one to be writing too. just dont expect too much so you wont be too dissappointed eh?

yep there are those who have reason to think we have our own legally appointed terroist organisation, they call it ,

RSPCA

but those like greymate know only those who deserve it end up thinking this way dont they? n must have brought it on themselves, yep totally right, if you dont have a pet and dont annoy someone it would never happen.

dont ever think u have any rights n never disagree with an inspector and you wont be traumatized when you do find out you have no rights.

right?

well you do have one right, write the minister at least that will keep you occupied

Edited December 17, 2009 by asal

[Steve]

Yes you write to the minister but by that time you're either found to be or charged as a crimminal. Your dogs are gone and your reputation is done in and what you have to say is seen as sour grapes.The minister can if he sees fit ask for info in regard to your matter from the RSPCA but he has no access to any internal goings on and just waiting on some kind of answer as asal had to can take months or years.

It would be great, wouldnt it, if the report which came back to the minister was given by alanglen who was until recently a senior vet for for the RSPCA and the very person who would have been asked about the situation. The owner had dogs on her filthy farm which she tortured and so if she has only been able to be charged with taking them to a dog show she got off lightly - right? Its already been said right here in writing! If we hadnt already been in and told the other story and already organised some legal help - how do you think that would have turned out? Do you think those dogs would be coming home after Friday, would anyone care? Would anyone help Judy- she would have just been getting what she deserved - right? She got us doubting it - I mean surely there must be something more to the story why else would they seize the dogs. What sort of response would you expect from the minister?