Ptolomy Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 So maybe there are different levels of drive then????? The day we scored 200 - Scoota was focused, he was accurate but he wasn't pushing and working his little socks off - BUT he was still in drive - if the definition of drive is.....staying attentive and not being distracted and doing everything I ask in a timely manner with accuracy? We can also have days when he is just going through the motions and is looking to be distracted - I definitely know what these rounds feel like. I have to say that most people would give their eye teeth to get a round like this, but when you have had the drive you want it all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 Huski wrote: A dog working in drive gets a release of endorphins which means they get a chemical reward..... But is that specific to working in drive and if that is the case why do you still then still need the food/toy reward after. Surely the dog then finds the work self rewarding and that becomes enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Huski wrote: A dog working in drive gets a release of endorphins which means they get a chemical reward.....But is that specific to working in drive and if that is the case why do you still then still need the food/toy reward after. Surely the dog then finds the work self rewarding and that becomes enough. I am no expert, but you still use the dog's primary drive (food/prey) to get them there and working. Sometime I'll throw Daisy a treat and she'll cough it back up and leave it on the ground, because she finds working in drive part of the reward, it's not just about the food. I would either work my dog in food or prey drive, without the food or prey item, what is there to release them to or help build drive with? Whilst the dogs get a chemical reward rewarding them in their primary drive (food/prey) is still important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Huski wrote: A dog working in drive gets a release of endorphins which means they get a chemical reward.....But is that specific to working in drive and if that is the case why do you still then still need the food/toy reward after. Surely the dog then finds the work self rewarding and that becomes enough. Just to play devil's advocate.....maybe they don't but we feel the need to give it to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) yep that is what I was thinking TSD . Sorry bit of confusion Huski - I don't mean never use food or toy but just once the drive has been built and the behavior is effectively self rewarding to the dog why then keep applying an external reward - does it lose its effectiveness if you offer it in a situation and the dog decides to spit it out or not take the reward on offer. And yes its a Sunday - the girls have been to the beach, had a bath, been trained and now I am just messing with people's minds . Edited December 20, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 So maybe there are different levels of drive then?????The day we scored 200 - Scoota was focused, he was accurate but he wasn't pushing and working his little socks off - BUT he was still in drive - if the definition of drive is.....staying attentive and not being distracted and doing everything I ask in a timely manner with accuracy? We can also have days when he is just going through the motions and is looking to be distracted - I definitely know what these rounds feel like. I have to say that most people would give their eye teeth to get a round like this, but when you have had the drive you want it all the time. You can tell when a dog is working in drive, it's an adrenalin fuelled behaviour and the body language a dog displays when working in drive is quite distinctive. For example I gave Daisy a dried treat earlier today and got her to do a couple of basic commands before I gave it to her (stand, down, sit) - she was attentive and responsive but it was clear to me that she wasn't working in drive. She downed as soon as I gave the command, but she didn't throw herself on the ground like she does when working in drive. She didn't have 110% focus and the sharpness she gives when in drive. When she's in drive you can see it so clearly in her body language and expressions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 yep that is what I was thinking TSD . Sorry bit of confusion Huski - I don't mean never use food or toy but just once the drive has been built and the behavior is effectively self rewarding to the dog why then keep applying an external reward - does it lose its effectiveness if you offer it in a situation and the dog decides to spit it out or not take the reward on offer.And yes its a Sunday - the girls have been to the beach, had a bath, been trained and now I am just messing with people's minds . See this is a conversation you'll have to have with K9 Force when he's up in Adelaide Daisy will learn to work away from her food reward which is how I will maintain her drive in the ring. She will see me put the food down before we go in and that's one way we'll maintain drive, she knows her reward is there even though the food itself is only one aspect of the reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 Question huski - do you believe some dogs are effectively always in drive. With Kenzie I have only ever paid/rewarded responses in which she is giving me 110% - focus/attention/speed and in almost all interactions she is always very switched on. She is also very quick to comply. This is in contrast to Ness who you can see a huge difference whether she is switched in to working or not. Ness at home thinks about complying and even if she does comply speedily you can see she is still considering it. Kenzie complies and goes no problem can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) huski its one I have already had in part via email with him but thought I would extend it to see what other people's views were. It actually came out in part of some observations of my two at the Dances with Dog comp last weekend. It was Kenzie's very first ANKC comp and probably the first time I had asked her for that length of a routine without a "reward" as such but since she has also only been through a handful of club training ring sessions I haven't yet developed a pre-ring routine or a post-ring routine so I used it as a big of an experiment. Unlike Ness who always needs a reward the moment we have finished Kenzie had no issue with keeping her enthusiasm up for the 4 routines and she wasn't always rewarded immediately upon finishing. In fact I had a bit of a battle to keep her drive lowered in her two freestyle routines as she was getting very over the top. Even her heelwork to music routine there was no loss of drive and this is from a dog who was put in a situation where she wasn't super confident, yet she was still drivey and up at the end and who probably hasn't done anything of that length without a reward. Edited December 20, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Question huski - do you believe some dogs are effectively always in drive. With Kenzie I have only ever paid/rewarded responses in which she is giving me 110% - focus/attention/speed and in almost all interactions she is always very switched on. She is also very quick to comply. This is in contrast to Ness who you can see a huge difference whether she is switched in to working or not. Ness at home thinks about complying and even if she does comply speedily you can see she is still considering it. Kenzie complies and goes no problem can do. It's hard with Daisy as it's actually hard not to have her in drive whenever food is around. This morning she wasn't in drive when I gave her the dried biscuit because she'd just been fed, been sleeping and been woken up to have her ears cleaned. And I made effort to ensure I didn't give her any sort of indication that we were going to be TID. If the dog is a high drive dog it can be hard to turn them off, as they have a lower threshold and therefore go into drive easily. Daisy has a very low threshold to food Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) Yep Kenz is always in drive , but I love that about her and I also made sure from day 1 that was the case. Thats not to say she doesn't chill out/switch off but I encouraged the revving up so when I want it she does. Edited December 20, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Ptolomy I know exactly where your coming from Although it would be very difficult for the onlooker to see the difference. I know we have both come out of the ring and said that was not his best round but we got through it and yet onlookers have not seen any errors. Its all relative isn't it Thanks for the explanation Huski Now I will throw something at you - yes we all want out dogs working in drive BUT when my dog isn't pushing he is in a much better heel position, is neater in all his exercises, his presents are spot on and always gets a higher score and yet to me I hate it I think Bedazzled can relate...... So which would everybody rather - a dog that is zupped up to the max and is super fun to work, but who you know you are going to get a lower score with, or the accurate less zupped up one????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 So if you took her to a park/trial ground and wanted to train/trial and didn't have food or toys with you.....? Don't get me wrong, I am big on food and motivational training but there have to be other ways to engage your dog. Can you transfer the rewards to a physical game? Huski wrote: A dog working in drive gets a release of endorphins which means they get a chemical reward.....But is that specific to working in drive and if that is the case why do you still then still need the food/toy reward after. Surely the dog then finds the work self rewarding and that becomes enough. I am no expert, but you still use the dog's primary drive (food/prey) to get them there and working. Sometime I'll throw Daisy a treat and she'll cough it back up and leave it on the ground, because she finds working in drive part of the reward, it's not just about the food. I would either work my dog in food or prey drive, without the food or prey item, what is there to release them to or help build drive with? Whilst the dogs get a chemical reward rewarding them in their primary drive (food/prey) is still important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 Are you asking huski bedazzledx2??? I took my girls to the local oval tonight so I could do some duration heelwork with Kenz. She was brilliant but I only was asking for 10 paces, 22 paces then 17 paces but she didn't miss a beat and it was seriously nice work - pushy but not so over the top to the point where she crabs. Probably could have asked for more but since we have been a bit lazy with our training I set the bar low so she was successful. Hope to raise it pretty quickly though . I know with Kenzie I have made much more effort in ensuring she is just as happy to play a game as she is for her food and toys. Means I always have something I can reinforce her with and she gives me everything whenever I want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 This drive talk is going way over my head :D . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Not especially Ness....just an observation that we don't always have food or toys to hand and need to be able to reward in a way that's meaningful to the dog. Especially useful for between exercises in the trial ring when you can't have food or toys on you. It doesn't just happen though and needs to be trained. Sorry for dragging this even more off topic Are you asking huski bedazzledx2??? I took my girls to the local oval tonight so I could do some duration heelwork with Kenz. She was brilliant but I only was asking for 10 paces, 22 paces then 17 paces but she didn't miss a beat and it was seriously nice work - pushy but not so over the top to the point where she crabs. Probably could have asked for more but since we have been a bit lazy with our training I set the bar low so she was successful. Hope to raise it pretty quickly though :D. I know with Kenzie I have made much more effort in ensuring she is just as happy to play a game as she is for her food and toys. Means I always have something I can reinforce her with and she gives me everything whenever I want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) So if you took her to a park/trial ground and wanted to train/trial and didn't have food or toys with you.....? Don't get me wrong, I am big on food and motivational training but there have to be other ways to engage your dog. Can you transfer the rewards to a physical game? I utilise her pack drive and rev her up between exercises without giving her food, but when it comes to trialling I will always have her working in food drive. Could I get her to work for praise? I could to a degree but why use that at a trial instead of food when I can get so much out of her by working her in food drive ETA: I don't mean I won't ever utilise her pack drive (playing, praise, playing a physical game) just that I won't use it instead of food drive. ETA2: If I went to the park without any food I simply wouldn't work her in drive. I couldn't do the training I do without it. Edited December 20, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 Bedazzled - everybody else has corrupted this thread so you might as well join the club :D . I had a very special distraction training item arrive via Australia post today all the way from WA so now I am tempted to find a time to use it . Watch this space for video involving a pink alien toy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted January 4, 2010 Author Share Posted January 4, 2010 Introducing Kozmee - and Kenzie's first getting acquainted with the new distraction toy session. Step 1 - Posing for a silly photo with toy - hard task for a midget dog who really needs to learn a better stay although actually she did ok today and stayed put with no additional commands for my entire photo shoot without trying to pounce on the camera . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 I utilise her pack drive and rev her up between exercises without giving her food, but when it comes to trialling I will always have her working in food drive. Could I get her to work for praise? I could to a degree but why use that at a trial instead of food when I can get so much out of her by working her in food drive ETA: I don't mean I won't ever utilise her pack drive (playing, praise, playing a physical game) just that I won't use it instead of food drive.ETA2: If I went to the park without any food I simply wouldn't work her in drive. I couldn't do the training I do without it. Huski I thought you weren't allowed to use food in a trial? Or is she getting the food after she performs all of the exercises? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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