Proofing With Distractions

[ness]

Following on from the youtube video thread with Ptolomy and bedazzledx2's videos I thought I would throw open this topic for discussion -

Obviously the videos that have been posted are pretty high level proofing with extremely experienced dogs. My question is for anybody who proofs their dogs - at what stage of your training would you introduce a distraction and what would you do if the dog was unsuccessful at completing a particular distraction. Do you automatically make it easier for the dog and try again.

Maybe we could also come up with a list of distractions and somehow devise a ranking from easy to extreme (although obviously this is dog dependant to some extent as what might be a distraction for 1 dog might not be a distraction for another dog).

[Aidan]

You can start adding distractions fairly early, so long as you keep on setting the dog up for success. If the dog isn't succeeding you have nothing to reinforce, so make it a little easier and try again.

For e.g pretty much as soon as I've got a dog coming quickly when called I'll stand in the line between two people, so the dog can run past me. Then I have food in my closed hand. Then I open my hand. We can get most dogs to recall past food in an open hand within two sessions, usually one session. Then I break out the tennis balls...

[ness]

Here is a bit of what I do with mine -

I will train my girls with food/toys on the ground - we will heel around them, I will place open food containers or toys on the ground behind them like in the Scooter DOR video and send the dog back. Similarly for COP. Food bowls/containers on top of cones and will work figure 8's. My youngster has learnt fairly early on to heel around with toys on the ground and I actually introduced it right back even when she was first learning. I throw food/toys around when we do stays and that was pretty much introduced the minute I could get a sit or a drop out of her.

I have attempted the work up to something like a food container in a middle of a pile of articles (ok we didn't start in the middle and it was closed and I started with it way way way off to one side but even that blew her mind). I think she was successful once but I never managed to improve from a seemingly low level distraction to a higher level one.

I know you don't throw them in the deep end and you progressively increase the level and complexity of a distraction (well that is what I do anyway) but was just curious what others might do and what happens if the dog starts making errors if you still want to increase the level of distraction and teach the dog to be successful.

Edited December 16, 2009 by ness

[Ptolomy]

Good question Ness.

In the videos we used very very experience dogs but you will also notice that the dogs did get it wrong, so we were able to help them out and have them be successful. We were also not being picky on presents, finishes and the finer points, but rather rewarding the fact that they were able to work through the distraction. They were all rewarded with multiple pieces of high quality food

Now with baby Beans, who has just entered the UD ring - having a person in the ring with her is a major distraction, having the lead and the scent article box next to the start peg is a major distraction, having other dogs working closeby on the oval is a major distraction and having the dog barking in the background is a major distraction. So what I am saying is that you really have to know your dog and whatever distraction you use, you need to set it up so the dog can be successful.

Had I taken Beans out and done scent articles with toys in the pack, it would have done her head in and the first thing she would have brought back would have been the monkey, probably minus a head or a leg.

So at what stage would I introduce proofing - for me it is when I think my dog knows the exercise I would start with minor distractions. It does make the dogs mentally tougher.

[ness]

speaking of bringing back the wrong thing I remember the day you suggested I place a piece of soap in my scent article pile and er yep what the hell my strange dog thought it was something to eat .

Fair point though about setting the dog up so they can be successful. Hmmm I might have to start with a food bowl on the other side of an oval .

[Ptolomy]

speaking of bringing back the wrong thing I remember the day you suggested I place a piece of soap in my scent article pile and er yep what the hell my strange dog thought it was something to eat .

Fair point though about setting the dog up so they can be successful. Hmmm I might have to start with a food bowl on the other side of an oval .

Ness the dog needs to be able to do the exercise accurately before adding distractions - I think you need to get this before adding a food bowl.......

[ness]

I am talking about Ness not Kenzie so yep the dog can do the exercise fine .

[bedazzledx2]

Have a look at this one.

Caffy is VERY distracting and it goes pear shaped a couple of times! As Ptolomy says it depends on what level your dog is at. I tend to reward big time when they work through a distraction. You can see Brookie catching a whole sardine as his reward for the cop. He loved it but it was pretty gross in my pocket!!!!

Following on from the youtube video thread with Ptolomy and bedazzledx2's videos I thought I would throw open this topic for discussion -

Obviously the videos that have been posted are pretty high level proofing with extremely experienced dogs. My question is for anybody who proofs their dogs - at what stage of your training would you introduce a distraction and what would you do if the dog was unsuccessful at completing a particular distraction. Do you automatically make it easier for the dog and try again.

Maybe we could also come up with a list of distractions and somehow devise a ranking from easy to extreme (although obviously this is dog dependant to some extent as what might be a distraction for 1 dog might not be a distraction for another dog).

[ness]

Ah yep that was a good example of what you do if it goes pearshaped - hadn't watched that one yet. I guess I know I don't do enough proofing (and certainly haven't with Ness) but mostly because I haven't been sure how to tackle it when its gone pearshaped as its bound to do occasionally.

ETA. Love the Brooklyn SFE distraction video - go the i-squeaks .

Edited December 16, 2009 by ness

[Aidan]

There are some "mild" distractions in this video:

[huski]

Have a look at this one.

Caffy is VERY distracting and it goes pear shaped a couple of times! As Ptolomy says it depends on what level your dog is at. I tend to reward big time when they work through a distraction. You can see Brookie catching a whole sardine as his reward for the cop. He loved it but it was pretty gross in my pocket!!!!

That's a great video!

What would you do if he ran after one of the toys and grabbed one? Would you call him back to you and reward for something basic?

I don't know how Daisy would go if someone was squeaking and throwing toys around her like that... I will have to try it She loves toys, but no where near as much as she loves food, and will ignore any toy on the ground if we are training.

I've had her sit at heel position while I squeak and throw Micha's cuz toy for him, and she shows no interest in it whatsoever.

Edited December 16, 2009 by huski

[bedazzledx2]

Good question Huski. If he had gone for a toy I would conclude I had lumped and gone too far too soon. I would abort that session and have a re-think and set him up for success. To start the distraction process I have him sitting at heel giving me attention with mild distractions. When he is successful at that I will escalate the distractions still stationary at heel. Then I will add one or two steps and reward and so forth and so on.

What would you do if he ran after one of the toys and grabbed one? Would you call him back to you and reward for something basic?

[Ptolomy]

I guess the other thing to add is that we are also not using food to lure through the distractions either.

Yes we do have food on us - but most of the time it is not visable as we load our pockets up before getting the dog out of the car.

[huski]

Good question Huski. If he had gone for a toy I would conclude I had lumped and gone too far too soon. I would abort that session and have a re-think and set him up for success. To start the distraction process I have him sitting at heel giving me attention with mild distractions. When he is successful at that I will escalate the distractions still stationary at heel. Then I will add one or two steps and reward and so forth and so on.

Thanks for your response, Bedazzled. That's what I assume with my dogs too - if they get too distracted I assume that level of distraction is too early and I need to take a step back.

I guess the other thing to add is that we are also not using food to lure through the distractions either.

Yes we do have food on us - but most of the time it is not visable as we load our pockets up before getting the dog out of the car.

Do you always reward with food or do you sometimes mix it up and reward with tugs, toys etc? I can work Daisy without food on me, if I have given her the 'ready to work' command because she knows that means she will be rewarded in food drive, irregardless of where the food is (in my hand, in my pocket, on the floor, in the treat bag, etc).

Although I don't know if I could have food on me without her knowing, even if i hid it in my pocket without her seeing, with her nose she'd know almost straight away

Edited December 16, 2009 by huski

[Aidan]

I wish more people understood the great stuff that is being described in this thread. It is key to getting reliable, fluent responses in almost any situation, whether they be obedience, agility, recalls, manners, loose leash walking, aggression etc Good work! Loved the video, too.

[bedazzledx2]

Food is what really turns Brookie on so I tend to use that as a primary re-enforcer. He loves his toys especially the i balls so I use that also but less so when I'm training lots of repeats. When I'm working on duration I will not have any food on me but I will 'plant' a container of yummy food somewhere in the training area before getting him out. If he works really well for an extended period I will jackpot and run to the food container and let him have the lot.

I also reward with a physical game...jump up, push away etc which he loves and you can take that into the ring with you and use between exercises. Very rewarding

Good question Huski. If he had gone for a toy I would conclude I had lumped and gone too far too soon. I would abort that session and have a re-think and set him up for success. To start the distraction process I have him sitting at heel giving me attention with mild distractions. When he is successful at that I will escalate the distractions still stationary at heel. Then I will add one or two steps and reward and so forth and so on.

Thanks for your response, Bedazzled. That's what I assume with my dogs too - if they get too distracted I assume that level of distraction is too early and I need to take a step back.

I guess the other thing to add is that we are also not using food to lure through the distractions either.

Yes we do have food on us - but most of the time it is not visable as we load our pockets up before getting the dog out of the car.

Do you always reward with food or do you sometimes mix it up and reward with tugs, toys etc? I can work Daisy without food on me, if I have given her the 'ready to work' command because she knows that means she will be rewarded in food drive, irregardless of where the food is (in my hand, in my pocket, on the floor, in the treat bag, etc).

Although I don't know if I could have food on me without her knowing, even if i hid it in my pocket without her seeing, with her nose she'd know almost straight away

[ness]

Would the way you work through a distraction vary depending on whether the dog is purely just "distracted" or whether they are scared of it. For instance I was watching some of the distractions offered on the link Aidan provided and some of the flapping type stuff might have the potential to scare dogs, even things like that noisy monkey toy you had in the scent discrim pile. Obviously there are different motivations behind why a dog might be "distracted"and so I wonder if people would work through them differently.

Edited December 16, 2009 by ness

[Ptolomy]

Do you always reward with food or do you sometimes mix it up and reward with tugs, toys etc? I can work Daisy without food on me, if I have given her the 'ready to work' command because she knows that means she will be rewarded in food drive, irregardless of where the food is (in my hand, in my pocket, on the floor, in the treat bag, etc).

Although I don't know if I could have food on me without her knowing, even if i hid it in my pocket without her seeing, with her nose she'd know almost straight away ;)

Blaize and Scoota - Probably 90-95% of the time I reward with food - as given the choice between food and a toy they would take food every time.

Beans - I would go as high as 99% of the time I reward with food as she has a tendency to anticipate and get messy - so with food I can reward multiple times while she is in position. I have started using the small i-squeak a bit more for her directed jumping.

Lexi - her ratio is probably 50% food and 50% the i-squeak so for me its a case of knowing what the dog likes best. Like Deb I also find that I can get more repetitions in, in a shorter time frame by using food and when you have 6 dogs this is important

Huski - I am interested to find out more about your ready to work command - do you only use this when you don't have food on you and do you use it in all your training sessions. I guess my ready to work command is line up or heel or are you ready???? but I am not sure if this is the same as what you are referring to

Edited December 16, 2009 by Ptolomy

[ness]

I know it wasn't addressed to me but for my two - Ness is 100% food ;) - its all she cares about in the world. Kenzie has been mostly toys but I am trying to include more food now since her appetite has improved as I find food better for accuracy as she gets a bit messy when I use a toy.

[Aidan]

Would the way you work through a distraction vary depending on whether the dog is purely just "distracted" or whether they are scared of it.

It should be noted that the dogs in the video I posted are very high drive, purpose bred working line Malinois. We would not expect most other dogs to be able to do what was shown in the video, or at least we would not be able to train them to do it very efficiently.

The process of working through things that a dog is scared of and things that a dog is distracted by for other reasons (prey drive, pack drive etc) can be remarkably similar.

You have to remember that there are both Respondents (brain chemistry, nervous impulses etc) and Operants (the more outwardly observable stuff that is controlled by consequences). With fearful behaviour the respondents play a larger role, and it will usually take longer to alter respondent behaviours. We can usually change operants fairly quickly, and these will influence respondents to some extent, but it should not be assumed that just because a dog is "acting" confident or calm that he actually is.

What I'm trying to say here, in plain English, is that you can teach a dog to heel past an object that he is scared of, but it may take longer for him not to feel fear while heeling past the object. But teaching him to heel past the object calmly will make some difference to how he feels about it.