On The Breaking Point

[Blue_Ice]

Hi everyone, I am new here and it seems a really good site with lots of useful stuff, so I am hoping like hell someone can help me out.

I have a 3 month old Alaskan Malamute (his name is Tuk) he is a beautiful dog and everyone says that when we are out walking, in fact one lady said he was like living art. BUT he has a dark side, he is like a terrorist in my own house.

He can be good, but most of the time he bites us, I'm covered in all up my arms with bite marks.. Its like he has BiPolar he is good one minute then a terrrorist the next. Is this common in the breed? I used to have a goldern retriever and he was so placid, never dug a hole never bit anyone.

I have tried yelling at him, i have grabbed him by the scruff area of the neck and held him to the ground like everyone says but it just doesnt work. Tried to ignore him, distract him anything i can think of i have tried. We go to puppy school and he is a real star yet at home its like running away for our own safety. He hasnt been nuited yet as the vet said to leave it a bit longer until he grows more could this solve the issue? Is it his way of trying to be the alpha male?

I am at breaking point and feel if i cant get help or do anything soon he will end up at the RSPCA, not where i want to send a pure bred dog i waited all my life for

ANY help or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance...

Kris

[Sandra777]

What advice did the breeder give you when you bought him?

Dogs are dogs are dogs but some breeds do have behavioural traits that need breed-specific advice and from the little I know about the breed, Malamutes don't tend to be overly mouthy but can be very independent.

Yelling and getting angry aren't helping so you need to change tack. He won't grow out of this behaviour and neutering him now or later won't help train him - and this is what you have, a training issue.

He thinks you're a joke is the plainest way of putting it. IMO it has nothing to do with him be an "alpha dog" or any other such jargon. He's a puppy and he's discovered he is the king of his house.

As well as consulting the breeder I would be googling Nothing In Life Is Free (NILIF) and ignoring anything which involves trying to physically overpower a dog who is very quickly going to be stronger than most people.

[poodlefan]

Welcome to the "OMG what were we thinking" phase of puppy ownership. We all go through it.

He is mouthing - this is what pups do to explore their environment. Your job is to teach him to inhibit his biting. I'd suggest you teach him that he is not to place his mouth on you at all.

He sounds pretty full on. Perhaps you might benefit from an in home visit by an experienced trainer. If you tell us where you live we may be able to suggest someone. If people are telling you to "alpha roll" him (ie hold him down on his back) then that is potentially dangerous advice which I strongly recommend you ignore.

Have you discussed this with his breeder?

Edited December 8, 2009 by poodlefan

[raffikki]

Hi Blue Ice

I'm definitely no expert BUT when my pups were that age they too were trying to use their mouths on me heaps.

I think it is normal puppy behaviour and it's up to use to teach them that it's not something we want them to do.

What I found worked really good was to always have chew toys around and as soon as they started the biting I'd give a low grumbling "ahhhh" and literally put a toy in their mouth, then tell them how good they were when they chewed that.

Don't give up on Tuk yet, he's just a baby

[Bundyburger]

Hi Blue Ice

I'm definitely no expert BUT when my pups were that age they too were trying to use their mouths on me heaps.

I think it is normal puppy behaviour and it's up to use to teach them that it's not something we want them to do.

What I found worked really good was to always have chew toys around and as soon as they started the biting I'd give a low grumbling "ahhhh" and literally put a toy in their mouth, then tell them how good they were when they chewed that.

Don't give up on Tuk yet, he's just a baby

Thats what we are doing, it works wonders.

[Aidan]

I have tried yelling at him, i have grabbed him by the scruff area of the neck and held him to the ground like everyone says but it just doesnt work. Tried to ignore him, distract him anything i can think of i have tried. We go to puppy school and he is a real star yet at home its like running away for our own safety.

Hi Kris, I suggest you get in touch with the Siberian Husky and Malamute Club in SA who should point you in the right direction. There are some breed-specific traits for northern breeds, and what you might get away with with a German Shepherd or Golden Retriever is going to get you the proverbial "middle finger" with a Malamute. Not that I would ever condone the so-called "alpha roll" (dangerous, and a completely backwards approach to what dogs do).

He isn't trying to become "alpha", don't worry. But he will do what works for him, so you need to learn how to direct him into behaviours that you find acceptable, and to make those "work for him" instead.

[lappiemum]

By the sounds of it, your puppy is an active, intelligent and confident youngster, who probably knows you better than you do - and is running the show.

You need some help - not for the puppy, but for you! You need to get someone in who can assess your home situation and show you techniques to re-establish your position (which, by the way, you probably lost about 30secs after you bought puppy home!)LOL

In the meantime, I suggest downloading this and having a read!

http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/AFTER%20...our%20Puppy.pdf

Click on the link and the file should begin downloading.

Its by Neil Dunbar, and quite interesting.The blurb is as follows:

House soiling, nipping, growling, resource guarding, destructive chewing, excessive barking, hyperactivity, jumping- up, leash-pulling and general unruliness are reported as primary reasons why people surrender their dogs to shelters or let them stray (to be captured and taken to shelters).

The presence of these same behaviors is also a major reason why people do not want to adopt shelter dogs. Yet these typical puppy behaviors are so easy to channel or eliminate with the right tools and information.

AFTER You Get Your Puppy covers the last three developmental deadlines that your puppy needs to meet before he is six months old. Skills that will keep dogs out of shelters and in their original homes:

The most urgent priority — Socializing Your Puppy to People

The most important priority — Teaching Bite Inhibition

The most enjoyable priority —Continuing Socialization in The World at Large

[pixie_meg]

I also have a 3 month old terror. We've been doing NILIF with not much success. The ifrst and only thing he wants to do is mouth and as soon as he sees the kids he wants to jump and mouth. We've been clicker training the last few days with some improvement but am really wondering if/when he will stop doing it. he's a bit snappy at us too like when i put him in the car and attach his harness. he's not impressed.

Any suggestions welcome, we're going to see a trainer soon. and we just started puppy school.

[lappiemum]

I also have a 3 month old terror. We've been doing NILIF with not much success. The ifrst and only thing he wants to do is mouth and as soon as he sees the kids he wants to jump and mouth. We've been clicker training the last few days with some improvement but am really wondering if/when he will stop doing it. he's a bit snappy at us too like when i put him in the car and attach his harness. he's not impressed.

Any suggestions welcome, we're going to see a trainer soon. and we just started puppy school.

puppies see kids as puppies, and will try to do the rough and tumble. NILF is good, but some puppies are more persistant than others - read the pdf of the linked booklet in the post just before yours, and also see about having someone (professional behaviourist) come into your homes, observe your interactions and give you instructions on what to do. Each puppy is different, my girl tasha was a complete terror, my boy bear was a soft natured and gentle boy (then my girl corrupted him...LOL)

[pixie_meg]

By the sounds of it, your puppy is an active, intelligent and confident youngster, who probably knows you better than you do - and is running the show.

You need some help - not for the puppy, but for you! You need to get someone in who can assess your home situation and show you techniques to re-establish your position (which, by the way, you probably lost about 30secs after you bought puppy home!)LOL

In the meantime, I suggest downloading this and having a read!

http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/AFTER%20...our%20Puppy.pdf

Click on the link and the file should begin downloading.

Its by Neil Dunbar, and quite interesting.The blurb is as follows:

House soiling, nipping, growling, resource guarding, destructive chewing, excessive barking, hyperactivity, jumping- up, leash-pulling and general unruliness are reported as primary reasons why people surrender their dogs to shelters or let them stray (to be captured and taken to shelters).

The presence of these same behaviors is also a major reason why people do not want to adopt shelter dogs. Yet these typical puppy behaviors are so easy to channel or eliminate with the right tools and information.

AFTER You Get Your Puppy covers the last three developmental deadlines that your puppy needs to meet before he is six months old. Skills that will keep dogs out of shelters and in their original homes:

The most urgent priority — Socializing Your Puppy to People

The most important priority — Teaching Bite Inhibition

The most enjoyable priority —Continuing Socialization in The World at Large

I read this before getting pup and implemented these things early on but to be honest my pup does not 'get' bite inhibition. He ignores yelps, cries, licking wounds, or even worse he gets excited. And i socialise my pup with humans and dogs. We have rules. what to do hey?

I'm sure this works for most dogs but mine certainly is an exception.

He is mouthing - this is what pups do to explore their environment. Your job is to teach him to inhibit his biting. I'd suggest you teach him that he is not to place his mouth on you at all.

i hope this doesn't sound silly but how exactly do you teach them not to put their mouth on you and how long should it take?

Edited December 8, 2009 by pixie_meg

[Blue_Ice]

Thanks for the quick replies....

I am in Adelaide, so if any body knows a good trainer here that would be excellent. Puppy school finishes this week so I want to take him on too the next step as well.

I just went outside and used "BAH" when he started to nip and shoved a toy in his mouth then said good boy when he started to chew that, so I think he may get the idea... I guess time will tell.

Any other ideas, or suggestions etc would be fantastic. And i wont be doing that rolling thing anymore as it appears a)no good anyway and b) no one here likes it haha. I dont want to cause more damage by doing it.

I have read the puppy calendar and he seems to fit it mostly so fingers crossed.

"You need some help - not for the puppy, but for you! You need to get someone in who can assess your home situation and show you techniques to re-establish your position (which, by the way, you probably lost about 30secs after you bought puppy home!)LOL" yes ur right i will have to get someone in to re-establish my position....

[Aidan]

I read this before getting pup and implemented these things early on but to be honest my pup does not 'get' bite inhibition. He ignores yelps, cries, licking wounds, or even worse he gets excited.

A friend of mine bred Borzoi for many years and my experience with them is that they have extraordinary levels of prey drive, similar to a working line GSD (I own one of these). Yelping will indeed make them very excited, even compulsion (scruffing etc) will only serve to increase drive once they are in the zone.

The approach that has worked for me is to END THE FUN in a meaningful way as soon as biting starts and to mark the event very clearly so that there is no confusion about what it was that caused the fun to stop. In a NEUTRAL tone of voice, as soon as the mouthing starts say "too bad" then get up and leave the room, closing the door behind you. Leave pup to settle a little, as soon as he begins to settle, come back into the room.

When you do want pup to be excited, have something LEGAL for him to mouth. If he mouths the legal thing (tug toy, chew toy etc), play the game with him. If he mouths skin, immediately "too bad" then get up and leave, closing the door behind you, wait until pup settles.

Mouthing chew toy = fun

Mouthing human = fun stops

Make it black and white, don't push him away as he follows you to the door nipping at you (one of the many things he is very likely to do). Just walk off quietly and shut the door behind you, wait until he settles.

Playing tug can be a very useful game for this sort of pup, and will only enhance the message that you are attempting to get across, see:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/727

[pixie_meg]

I read this before getting pup and implemented these things early on but to be honest my pup does not 'get' bite inhibition. He ignores yelps, cries, licking wounds, or even worse he gets excited.

A friend of mine bred Borzoi for many years and my experience with them is that they have extraordinary levels of prey drive, similar to a working line GSD (I own one of these). Yelping will indeed make them very excited, even compulsion (scruffing etc) will only serve to increase drive once they are in the zone.

The approach that has worked for me is to END THE FUN in a meaningful way as soon as biting starts and to mark the event very clearly so that there is no confusion about what it was that caused the fun to stop. In a NEUTRAL tone of voice, as soon as the mouthing starts say "too bad" then get up and leave the room, closing the door behind you. Leave pup to settle a little, as soon as he begins to settle, come back into the room.

When you do want pup to be excited, have something LEGAL for him to mouth. If he mouths the legal thing (tug toy, chew toy etc), play the game with him. If he mouths skin, immediately "too bad" then get up and leave, closing the door behind you, wait until pup settles.

Mouthing chew toy = fun

Mouthing human = fun stops

Make it black and white, don't push him away as he follows you to the door nipping at you (one of the many things he is very likely to do). Just walk off quietly and shut the door behind you, wait until he settles.

Playing tug can be a very useful game for this sort of pup, and will only enhance the message that you are attempting to get across, see:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/727

Firstly i'm very sorry to have hijacked.

Aidan, thankyou. What you described is exactly what he is like. People say that when you ignore pup then he will stop playing. so not so. I'll be taking your advice.

[Blue_Ice]

I'm sorry i dont know how to add the quotes, i've never used a forum before. But thats ok to have hijacked LOL

I've been outside more with Tuk and playing, i've been sticking the toy in his mouth, ignoring when he gets silly and its a good sign so far.

He is pretty good its just this stage of "what have i done" that i am in i guess lol.

I read the PDF file for puppies attached below and it all makes perfect sense. So thanks for that.

Does anybody know and good dog schools in Adelaide (preferably the south or the hills)?

And i am glad i am not the only one who is "suffering"

I wont give up on him just yet

[Jasslyn]

I read this before getting pup and implemented these things early on but to be honest my pup does not 'get' bite inhibition. He ignores yelps, cries, licking wounds, or even worse he gets excited.

A friend of mine bred Borzoi for many years and my experience with them is that they have extraordinary levels of prey drive, similar to a working line GSD (I own one of these). Yelping will indeed make them very excited, even compulsion (scruffing etc) will only serve to increase drive once they are in the zone.

The approach that has worked for me is to END THE FUN in a meaningful way as soon as biting starts and to mark the event very clearly so that there is no confusion about what it was that caused the fun to stop. In a NEUTRAL tone of voice, as soon as the mouthing starts say "too bad" then get up and leave the room, closing the door behind you. Leave pup to settle a little, as soon as he begins to settle, come back into the room.

I tried a similar approach with my older boy, Flynn, when he was a pup. I also had the moments and was just so completely out of my depth. I tried the yelping thing, and it just hyped him up. But ending the fun and refusing to play with him if he got too boisterous did work and he quickly learned to be more gentle with me. If he scratched or nipped me, I would say "ouch" and go sit somewhere he knew he wasn't allowed (like the couch) until he calmed down.

Because that approach worked, I went straight to that when I got my second boy, Jasper. Now both of my dogs know that if they hear the word "ouch" it means they have to settle down.

Hang in there, it can be overwhelming having a new puppy. Once you find the right technique for you and your pup you'll be surprised at how quickly things change. Do speak to your pup's breeder, they should be able to offer advice and support. And if you do decide that you can't cope anymore and need to rehome your dog, the breeder should either take the pup back or help you rehome him. Please don't send him to the RSPCA.

[poodlefan]

i hope this doesn't sound silly but how exactly do you teach them not to put their mouth on you and how long should it take?

You've got three methods for tackling any unwanted behaviour - replace it with a desired one, deflect it or deter it.

Replacement doesn't happen much with mouthing but you see it when pups are taught to sit before they get attention, rather than jumping for it.

Deflecting is offering another article to chew or removing yourself from a situation where they are mouthing you. A pup cannot chew your arms if it cannot reach them. If you're sitting and pup jumps up to mouth, you can stand up or push puppy off. This is easier for adults than kids.

Detering is adding an aversive to teach the dog that behaviour it considers rewarding (and lets face it that's why most of those unwanted behaviours will NOT be grown out of) is no longer enjoyable. Techniques like squirt bottles, placing pressure on the pups jaw etc make the experience unpleasant.

The tricky part is figuring out which of all of the possibilities will work on your little terror. Obviously starting at the lower end of the scale is desirable but for some tough pups, you have to be pretty aversive to deter them. This is where a good trainer can really help you.

I'm no fan of clickers for dealing with highly self rewarding unwanted behaviour. Nothing you're going to mark and reward is going to stop a dog doing something it really enjoys. This is why I believe there is a place for intelligent and humane use of aversives in dog training.

ETA: Oh, on the how long should it take issue there are a lot of variables. It depends on the consistency with which the behaviour is dealt with, the level of the aversive (if one is used) and the temperament of the pup. The most important factor IMO is the consistency with which people deal with the behaviour. You can't expect a pup to learn quickly if some family members want to play chasey tuggy games or rough house while other are trying to deter any mouthing. This happens a fair bit.

Edited December 8, 2009 by poodlefan

[RallyValley]

Toby was the worst little nipper as a pup and used to draw blood... we used to make a 'hurt' noise (which was usually natural because his nips hurt) and just leave the room. If he followed us and nipped at our heels/pants/shoes we would crate him until he was calm, but this was also because he was in a cast and we didn't want him running around all over the place.

[Dogsfevr]

I think the most important thing to remember is your pup is being normal & no amount of frustration will help the cause,infact the more frustrated you feel the more it will show through your body language & the quicker the pup knows it.

It is no different than toddlers grabbing everything of the shelves,shoving it in there mouths.It drives you crazy but its a stage they go through & with guidance they learn good/bad

It is all part of touch,texture,smell.

I gather your pup is an outside dog??? if so when going outside it will cause great excitement after all its left its mum & litter mates to having nothing at all.You are now its means of teaching,fun & life experience.

Pup doesnt now that what it does hurts it just knows its normal for the way it interacts with its mates.

We board alot of dogs where people use various noises & it can be quite comical to watch.

I believe these days raising a pup has become so technical with various books that people forget to use simple common sense which works wonders but instead make it harder.

Your pup will listen,no dog is untrainable but each dog has its triggers & each dog has its thing it will work for.

Everyone must be consistent.

Training schools or a good trainer are a great starting point because people often dont realise what there body does when trying to teach a dog to listen.

I now from teaching people show training many have no idea that the things they are doing whilst ever so small is the breaking point of the dog not listen or not being able to do whats asked.

If you have avideo camera get someone to video so you can see how you react,what your arms,voice & body language is telling the dog.Whether you say to much & have averbal conversation instead of a simple "sit"stay" no.

[Nekhbet]

Contact Mark Singer http://caninetraining.com.au/ as a starting point

you need to keep persisting. You purchased a difficult, independant and stubborn breed were you not told that by the breeder?

And no one forced to dump a dog at the RSPCA. It's my pet hate when people cannot cope and dont really try everything then dump an ill mannered dog off who will probably fail temperament test.

[Odin-Genie]

I have a northern breed as well and he used to be exactly the same as a puppy. For the first two months, we used to be covered with scratches. He was great at puppy class but wouldn't do anything he was told at home if he didn't want to. We persisted with his training, including some sessions with the trainer at home, and now, at two years of age, he is the gentlest boy, still very high energy but with a very high bite inhibition.

With my limited knowledge of northern breeds (just one dog) I would say that you need to be firm but gentle. Screaming or shouting doesn't work. If he nips, give a sharp yelp and move away. Turn your back to him or go out of the room.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Odin-Genie