Decided To Check Nsw Dog Attacks

[sandgrubber]

If you look at the history of BSL in California, you'll find that government was educated in deed not breed and resisted BSL for a long time. But after a long string of spectacular, high-profile cases, eg, children killed when accidentally wandering into a marajuana field which happened to be guarded by a vicious dog, celebs killed by their own dogs, the state government has backed down and allowed regional government to allow mandatory BSL spey-neuter laws (with a permit system that allows people to gain permits that allow breeding).

Education alone is not going to be enough. So long as there's a criminal low-life population out there who use dogs as weapons and enjoy blood sport, the public good will built up by education will crumble when breed-specific events make the headlines. Unfortunately, the lowlife part of the population is highly breed-selective. If you can't reduce the extent to which such groups favour a few breeds and uses them for evil purposes, you're not going to have much success getting rid of BSL. There is a problem. It may have more to do with the people that are attracted to a breed than something intrinsic to the breed itself. But the two are connected. If people who prefer vicious dogs take a fancy to some breed and breed up the aggressive traits, the breed is made less socially acceptable in an objective way.

I think the GSD and Rotti people are doing very well in avoiding inclusion in BSL. I think most of them know they have to work at it, and quality breeders won't look at puppy-buyers with disreputable (human) pedigrees. If the bull and mastiff breeds want to beat back BSL I'm afraid they're going to have to work at patrolling where their bloodlines end out, and helping authorities to stamp out dog fighting, use of dogs as weapons, and breeding for aggression.

[BJean]

I think the GSD and Rotti people are doing very well in avoiding inclusion in BSL. I think most of them know they have to work at it, and quality breeders won't look at puppy-buyers with disreputable (human) pedigrees.

Ask someone off the street: what's a dog to be scared of, what breeds should be banned?

and those that are for banning / restricting breeds, will cite rottweiler - big black and scarey - aye its gotta go, there's no place for them.

If BSL is to be expanded, the rotti would be one of the favourites vying for 'next' position.

The BIGGEST problem amongst dog owners / breeder / interested parties

is misunderstanding of 'aggression' and the dogs involved.

If the bull and mastiff breeds want to beat back BSL I'm afraid they're going to have to work at patrolling where their bloodlines end out, and helping authorities to stamp out dog fighting, use of dogs as weapons, and breeding for aggression.

Most registered breeders work for their breed club, ie they are more likely to be breeding for the breed -

your backyard once or twice off breeder, doesn't.

How many more bull and mastiff bybs are there than registered breeders? Controlling breeding stock ... horse has already bolted on that one. There are heaps of unpapered dogs out there, it wont matter who the registered breed club breeders sell or dont sell to.

And what does it mean "breeding for aggression" -

can you explain what you mean by that? Do bull and mastiff registered breeders currently breed for aggression?

which type of aggression?

You imply that breeders can help authorites stamp out dog fighting - what do breeders know that they are not sharing, or what can they do that they are not doing? How can bull and mastiff breeders help stamp out dog fighting other than what the population at large is already doing?

Edited March 10, 2010 by lilli

[sandgrubber]

I'm just a loudmouth who does a bit of reading. I have been a research professional, and think it would take a few months of wading through the evidence to present a respectable/publishable argument along the lines I roughed out in my post. Unless someone wants to pay me for it, and I presume no one does, I don't have those months to spare.

That said: it's a spectacular PR feat, given the attack statistics, and the relatively low ambiguity about what dog is a Rotti, that Rottweilers aren't at the forefront of BSL. I often chat with a top-quality Rotti breeder. He does have tats on his arms and does lift weights . . . but has strong, well-defined standards regarding his chosen breed (and many other subject). He says he often gets requests from people who own 'tough' dogs to use his very impressive dogs at stud and he proudly dismisses their advances with profane disdain. Likewise, I've seen him and his extended family (all Rotti oriented) take many months to rehome a pup who was brought back . . . because so many of the people who want a Rotti want it for the wrong reasons.

I have no idea how the Rotti community works. But I don't see a lot of black and tan pig dogs, or hear of Rotti X's being involved in pit fights or killing off neighborhood children. Unlike APBT's, where confusion with ASBTs and SBT varieties is hard to resolve, the Rotti X is usually an easy dog to spot.

My sense is that the GSD community went through challenges many year back and managed to preserve the reputation of their breed, but I'm talking off the top of my head and would have to study the history to be sure of the 'hunch'.

The proof is in the pudding. You could say the relative silence of the press on the Rotti and GSD (or for that matter the Doberman) is arbitrary and reflects some malicious trend of hating APBT's. You may be right. But before coming to conclusions about what works, I think it's worth considering the 'guarding / schutz' dogs that have largely escaped BSL and studying what their communities have done to avoid being a target.

I should note, I think some fighting terrier breed fans seem to take pleasure in the fighting spirit of their dogs. That is a BIG NO-NO in PR terms. Glorification of fighting must NOT be tolerated. If the same energy that is directed to confronting the RSPCA were applied to people who are breeding for DA/HA traits, I think the bull and mastiff breeds would be doing better in this battle.

'Education' is a knee-jerk cure for everything. It often doesn't work. I think the detractors of BSL need to take a hard look at other factors . . . and I think there's a lot to learn from the 'schutz' breeds that have largely escaped BSL.

[justin19801]

Ths GSD was never attacked as the APBT has been. It was more of a fear of dogs breeeding with dingoes to produce a super wolf. It all sounds so silly now. The fact BSL was overturned was because Don Chip the Minister for Customs was apparently involved with the breed.

The Schutz breeds have escaped BSL as it is virtually non-existenent as a canine sport in Australia. This is coupled with the fact when a Rotti kills a child as in Melbourne in 2008 the APBT is blamed!!!! And BSL strengthened. Unfortunately this leads to further dog attacks as APBTs are dangerous and that makes all other breeds safe. How many people even remember that the APBT was banned from importation when an English Bull Terrier killed a child in Sydney? I'm told Hugh Wirth owned one at the time and was why he moved against the APBT, though I have never found any positive proof Tigger (I think was his name) was an EBT.

APBT you are quite correct that the true SBT is as the photo you posted. The caricatures which we see now are nothing like the dogs dogfighters like Joe Malam and the like fought to have accepted in the show ring.

[Jed]

Whilst the glorification of fighting dogs persists on forums etc, the bans have no hope of being overturned.

[WreckitWhippet]

Whilst the glorification of fighting dogs persists on forums etc, the bans have no hope of being overturned.

And whilst people talk about "working" which equates to "fighting", there's no hope either.

[justin19801]

Whilst the glorification of fighting dogs persists on forums etc, the bans have no hope of being overturned.

Who glorifies fighting dogs? Caricatures are next in line for dog control measures a la PDE doco. As I've already explained, BSL isn't about the dogs, it's about the owners. The UK is reviewing the DDA and could see massive changes there, and b4 we know it, here as well.

[WreckitWhippet]

If you are referring to ANKC registered Staffordshire Bull Terriers as "caricatures", those dogs are fine for the time being, as Dogs NSW sealed the deal for them years ago.

Thankfully, according to those in the know, they look nothing like and do not have the gameness of the "working SBT" ( translation = Pit Bull ) , while ever we can continue to distance ourselves from those dogs and generic brindle dog, we should be fine. Breeders breeding to the standard, breeding wisely and selecting the very best puppy buyers, should ensure their future.

[APBT]

Whilst the glorification of fighting dogs persists on forums etc, the bans have no hope of being overturned.

Bans or No bans, the APBT will always be around and those who love them will always own them.

[APBT]

Whilst the glorification of fighting dogs persists on forums etc, the bans have no hope of being overturned.

And whilst people talk about "working" which equates to "fighting", there's no hope either.

i here were your coming from but you cant deny or run from the history of the breed, i dont agree with matching or fighting dogs, but i do have the upmost respect all the dogemen of the past who put there lives into these dogs making them what they are today.

[WreckitWhippet]

Whilst the glorification of fighting dogs persists on forums etc, the bans have no hope of being overturned.

Bans or No bans, the APBT will always be around and those who love them will always own them.

That sort of comment does your cause no favours either. Those with influence and those who make the decisions care very little for talk like that.

[Robbi]

Same old, same old. The bite stats have been similar for 10 years to my certain knowledge, with changes in order - mostly ACD are at the top.

Before BSL, APBT was still far down the list. If the stats are adjusted for probable numbers in breeds (or as much as they can be, as there are few accurate figures on breed numbers), the APBT is still far down the list.

Breed ID's are often incorrect. If the neighbour's dog attacks, it is probably known what breed or cross it is, if a strange dog attacks, breed id is often a lottery. The dog may be identified by someone who is highly stressed, and had little dog knowledge.

It was determined that BSL would be enacted in Australia. That followed banning pitbulls in various other places, notably Germany, because an APBT and a "staffy" attacked and killed a child. Both dogs belonged to criminal elements, and were used for fighting. I believe the APBT was believed not to have eaten for several days.

RSPCA, notably Hugh Wirth, supported and encouraged bans. CCCQ supported bans, and offered to do breed training to council ACOs. BSL was first enacted in Toowoomba Q following an attack by a dog identified as a pitbull which resulted in the death of a senior lady. On PM the dog was identified as a "labrador crossed with some sort of bull breed". The dog had been accessed from the local pound by a youth who attested he would "make the dog savage". He certainly succeeded. The dog was destroyed, and Toowoomba banned pit bulls and Amstaffs - because they couldn't tell one from the other.

Legislation was enacted, and all other Queensland councils followed. Other states followed as well.

Prior to that the Murdoch newspapers, particularly the SMH ran a concerted campaign over years to vilify the pit bull to the public. Every week, there was a feature in the paper about the evils of the pitbull. Either a dog attack, or that the dogs had "locking jaws" or "2000 lb jaw pressure". One week, they ran out of attacks, so they imported a photo from o/s of two brown dogs rocking a car in Germany trying to get a cat under the car.

Over years, the media campaign was successful, and by the time the bans were enacted, the public (most of which had never seen a pit bull) was terrified of pitbulls, and firmly supported the bans.

As they still do.

The influence on the media may be seen today in this forum, where people who have no experience with pit bulls (or staffies) show approval of the bans, and tell us that pit bulls are dangerous.

BSL negated governments and councils' responsibility for dog attacks - instead of enforcing existing laws regarding all breeds, they could focus on the fact that they had banned those wretched pitbulls, and the public was safe.

Of course, since the bans, councils have added other breeds to the dogs banned, or restricted, within their shires. Including Newfoundlands, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Maremmas, Amstaffs etc.

At the UAM conferences I attended, it was quite apparent that councils welcomed BSL - some because they believed it would lower dog attacks, but most saw it for what it is. An out for councils' responsibility for dog attacks.

Dogs are the single biggest problem councils face.

justin 19801 is correct. BSL is part of a world wide campaign by animal rights to curtail animal ownership. The media beat up by the Murdoch newspapers followed similar beat ups in various countries, which were soon followed by bans.

Tail docking bans followed, with similar negative publicity, so the public was in favour. As with APBT, the public was led to believe a lot of incorrect information.

Now the extinction of purebred dogs, and breeding is beginning, with PDE, and various articles in newspapers vilifying and ridiculing pedigree dogs. Where once there was hardly any publicity on purebred dogs, now there is something negative almost every week. However, this ban will be achieved by squeezing breeders out. The number of pups bred has already declined, and will continue to do so. RSPCA is also squeezing breeders, and puppy farms.

In 20 years, there will be no dogs.

Nannas, you will not overturn bans on APBT by blaming other breeds. Whether they be crossbreds or staffies.

Some progress was made in Q by beating councils in court.

The only way ahead is to blame deed, not breed and to make that salient point in a rational, educated way to legislators.

Alas, it is too late.

And that's how it is. APBT went first, but the others will be picked off one by one, as per the directive of the European Convention. While we argue about tail docking, dog shows, whether purebreds are healthier, and whether the stats are correct.

And Nannas, you are incorrect, the ban on GSD importation was not overturned by blaming other breeds. It was overturned by a concerted campaign by GSD supporters to educate legislators particularly shire councillors, at every opportunity. GSDs were banned in some shires, but not in all.

I suggest you do a search of the forum over the past seven years, and you will find the issues you have raised have already been raised, and discussed.

Jed, what an incitful, knowledgeable post, I also think we are fighting to save all breeds as at any moment public opinion and the media could turn against any of our chosen breeds, we need to be united as dog owners to stamp out the idiot/criminal element that want dogs as weapons and do torturous and inhumane things to them to make them damaged and vicious animals that are driven to attack. How we can do this is a problem for more knowledgeable people than myself but I would love to see the day that dog owners respect that we are the caretakers of the dog and do our be best by them and for them and not treat them as throw away toys to do our worst with. I am all for psl(people specific legislation)never for bsl as it is a dangerous path that will lead to the eventual destruction of many great and noble breeds.

The general public are niave and ignorant to what breeds dogs are, when I walk my dogs in public I know that I am walking a Whippet, a Kelpie and a Bull Arabx comments I have received by the public have suggested I am walking at various times a Tasmanian Tiger or Greyhound(the Whippet) a wolf or small brown Husky(the Kelpie) and a Pit bull, Mastiff or spawn of the devil(the Bull Arabx).

Edited March 10, 2010 by Robbi

[sandgrubber]

Ths GSD was never attacked as the APBT has been. It was more of a fear of dogs breeeding with dingoes to produce a super wolf. It all sounds so silly now. The fact BSL was overturned was because Don Chip the Minister for Customs was apparently involved with the breed.

The Schutz breeds have escaped BSL as it is virtually non-existenent as a canine sport in Australia. This is coupled with the fact when a Rotti kills a child as in Melbourne in 2008 the APBT is blamed!!!! And BSL strengthened. Unfortunately this leads to further dog attacks as APBTs are dangerous and that makes all other breeds safe. How many people even remember that the APBT was banned from importation when an English Bull Terrier killed a child in Sydney? I'm told Hugh Wirth owned one at the time and was why he moved against the APBT, though I have never found any positive proof Tigger (I think was his name) was an EBT.

APBT you are quite correct that the true SBT is as the photo you posted. The caricatures which we see now are nothing like the dogs dogfighters like Joe Malam and the like fought to have accepted in the show ring.

Please clarify oblique references. I have no knowledge of Don Chip or Tigger, or whatever. I think many others are left shrugging their shoulders.

[APBT]

Whilst the glorification of fighting dogs persists on forums etc, the bans have no hope of being overturned.

Bans or No bans, the APBT will always be around and those who love them will always own them.

That sort of comment does your cause no favours either. Those with influence and those who make the decisions care very little for talk like that.

Once again i here what your saying, But its just reality, do you really think the APBT will become extinct because there is a ban on them?

Edited March 10, 2010 by APBT

[WreckitWhippet]

Whilst the glorification of fighting dogs persists on forums etc, the bans have no hope of being overturned.

Bans or No bans, the APBT will always be around and those who love them will always own them.

That sort of comment does your cause no favours either. Those with influence and those who make the decisions care very little for talk like that.

Once again i here what your saying, But its just reality, do you really think the APBT will become extinct because there is a ban on them?

I think that in time, the only bull breeds that you will be able to own without restriction, will be those with ANKC papers.

[APBT]

Then what will stop people from getting there ANKC staffords or amstaffs and breading them for gameness/fighting again, It will just start the cycle again.

[justin19801]

Then what will stop people from getting there ANKC staffords or amstaffs and breading them for gameness/fighting again, It will just start the cycle again.

Apart from a small number of dogs APBTs have never been bred for gameness. Since they are the same breed as the SBT and AST (dual registered as well) they will never disappear as long as those breeds don't. Eventually all dogs breeds will suffer because of the endless infighting and navel gazing that dog owners indulge in rather than uniting to fight BSL and it's proponents. Even worse the victims of dog attacks will continue to grow as they do everywhere bsl is introduced further placing all dog ownership at risk.

[rottiadora]

while ever we can continue to distance ourselves from those dogs and generic brindle dog, we should be fine.

I love brindle SBT's

Edited March 10, 2010 by rottiadora

[RottnBullies]

Distance! In other words my breed Is safe, who cares about you jack! and here in lies the problem, when the closest relatives have washed their hands, what hope in hell does the APBT have

Don't blame the dog, the dog Is just an innocent bystander In this wretched equation. People make the dogs what they are, dogs don't have a choice! yet they are the first to pay with their lives.

I don't remember but was told that Is was because of what happened with the BT that caused the Import ban to begin, I don't see anyone throwing them to the wolves?, and so we shouldn't as each dog Is an individual, and there will always be bad apples In every breed. If we can't get support from ALL of the rest of the bull breed owners out there to begin with, how can we get the support from ordinary joe blow

[APBT]

Then what will stop people from getting there ANKC staffords or amstaffs and breading them for gameness/fighting again, It will just start the cycle again.

Apart from a small number of dogs APBTs have never been bred for gameness. Since they are the same breed as the SBT and AST (dual registered as well) they will never disappear as long as those breeds don't. Eventually all dogs breeds will suffer because of the endless infighting and navel gazing that dog owners indulge in rather than uniting to fight BSL and it's proponents. Even worse the victims of dog attacks will continue to grow as they do everywhere bsl is introduced further placing all dog ownership at risk.

APBT have never been bred for gameness? i dont know if your being serious or not. All APBT have been game tested somewere along there lines, i have no doubt that my dogs ancestors were fought