Decided To Check Nsw Dog Attacks

[Longcoat]

The concept of BSL is based on the restriction of breeds from a fighting origin and the breeds listed simply fall into that category. It's not about ramdomly selecting breeds that someone thinks has a dangerous potential as it may appear. Other breeds have featured higher than restricted breeds in bite statistics and seem to get away with it, but those breeds are not of fighting origins and escape the BSL radar for that reason. The listed breeds are also fairly consistant worldwide where breed restrictions are in place and are not exclusive to Australian selection.

BSL specifically isn't about lowing bite statsitics, it's about restricting breeds of a fighting origin being kept in the community and increasing bite statistic potential should restrictions be lifted is the basic reasoning behind it.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Longcoat

[Sandra777]

The concept of BSL is based on the restriction of breeds from a fighting origin

So how does the Dogo Argentino and the Presa Canario fit into this theory? Or the Corgi or Newfoundland (both subject to BSL in Italy), or the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Golden Retriever which are both included in BSL in areas of the USA.

[Longcoat]

The concept of BSL is based on the restriction of breeds from a fighting origin

So how does the Dogo Argentino and the Presa Canario fit into this theory? Or the Corgi or Newfoundland (both subject to BSL in Italy), or the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Golden Retriever which are both included in BSL in areas of the USA.

We are talking "Australian concept" on BSL. There is quite a lot of information in this regard on the subject. I would like to see legislation for real that restricts Golden Retrievers which sounds like bulldust to me

[sandgrubber]

The concept of BSL is based on the restriction of breeds from a fighting origin

So how does the Dogo Argentino and the Presa Canario fit into this theory? Or the Corgi or Newfoundland (both subject to BSL in Italy), or the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Golden Retriever which are both included in BSL in areas of the USA.

Lots of devils lurk in details. Sometimes there's a mind-dead political process making legislation based on some incident or strong opinions from a powerful person. Sometimes there's a specific reason. Sometimes there's a false report and it will turn out that 'BSL' is just some do-gooder legislation trying to help when they would do better leaving things be. Eg, the BSL on Goldies could say that people could be prosecuted for cruelty if the didn't groom adequately. Sometimes there's an intelligent decision based on study of the breed characteristics . . . resulting in the opinion that there aren't many of 'em in Oz now and it will be much simpler if we don't bring in more.

Unfortunately, such things need to be studies on a case-by-case basis.

[Sandra777]

The concept of BSL is based on the restriction of breeds from a fighting origin

So how does the Dogo Argentino and the Presa Canario fit into this theory? Or the Corgi or Newfoundland (both subject to BSL in Italy), or the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Golden Retriever which are both included in BSL in areas of the USA.

We are talking "Australian concept" on BSL. There is quite a lot of information in this regard on the subject. I would like to see legislation for real that restricts Golden Retrievers which sounds like bulldust to me

Still doesn't explain the Dogo or the Presa. Neither are fighting dogs, they are both guardian/hunting/guard dogs. Better ban the Great Dane too. Google for BSL as it relates to Golden Retrievers, it exists whether you choose to believe it or not.

[Longcoat]

The concept of BSL is based on the restriction of breeds from a fighting origin

So how does the Dogo Argentino and the Presa Canario fit into this theory? Or the Corgi or Newfoundland (both subject to BSL in Italy), or the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Golden Retriever which are both included in BSL in areas of the USA.

We are talking "Australian concept" on BSL. There is quite a lot of information in this regard on the subject. I would like to see legislation for real that restricts Golden Retrievers which sounds like bulldust to me

Still doesn't explain the Dogo or the Presa. Neither are fighting dogs, they are both guardian/hunting/guard dogs. Better ban the Great Dane too. Google for BSL as it relates to Golden Retrievers, it exists whether you choose to believe it or not.

I guess they may consider a hunting dog fights the prey it hunts perhaps???. There is "talk" on Golden Retrievers & BSL but couldn't find any actual legislation in confirmation though

[justin19801]

The issue of BSL is an extremely complex one. It is not based on a breed or public safety but support from different groups for different reasons. The SBT, AST and APBT are one and the same. Animal welfare groups support BSL as it is a leg - in to end pet ownership a la PETA and HSUS and our own local versions who also use it to scare people into donating to them. It also gives the option of killing dogs because "it's the law", the fact that breed id's are being done by unqualified people and dogs are even being temperment tested to death with unscientific methods. More money for those executives lucky to travel at the dogs expense.

Individuals like it as it allows them to clean up society and if you listen closely to their words "the types of people who own those types of dogs" are the real target of BSL.

Governments like it as it allows legislation to control people and gain access to their property to be passed without anyone opposing it. Just like the anti-terror legislation which closely mimicks bsl.

Anyone who thinks their breed is safe will be woken up when Australia follows the UK with legislation based on the PDE doco.

The sooner dog owners get their head around the fact that BSL is not about dogs the sooner it will be overturned.

[APBT]

The issue of BSL is an extremely complex one. It is not based on a breed or public safety but support from different groups for different reasons. The SBT, AST and APBT are one and the same. Animal welfare groups support BSL as it is a leg - in to end pet ownership a la PETA and HSUS and our own local versions who also use it to scare people into donating to them. It also gives the option of killing dogs because "it's the law", the fact that breed id's are being done by unqualified people and dogs are even being temperment tested to death with unscientific methods. More money for those executives lucky to travel at the dogs expense.

Individuals like it as it allows them to clean up society and if you listen closely to their words "the types of people who own those types of dogs" are the real target of BSL.

Governments like it as it allows legislation to control people and gain access to their property to be passed without anyone opposing it. Just like the anti-terror legislation which closely mimicks bsl.

Anyone who thinks their breed is safe will be woken up when Australia follows the UK with legislation based on the PDE doco.

The sooner dog owners get their head around the fact that BSL is not about dogs the sooner it will be overturned.

The AST, SBT and APBT are not the same dog, please dont post that kind of information on a public forum for uneducated people to believe it.

They aren't the same, similiar, but not the same. They are not even the same by apearence. Working staffords could pass as an APBT by appearence, but not all working APBT could pass as a staff by apearence. This by its self shows the difference in the 2 breeds and the different direction some of the breeding programs have went over the last 100 years. I would say they were the same if they were continually crossed into one another or even every couple generations but it has been a long seperation and breeding goals have probably been slightly different even though they are both working dogs.

Edited March 9, 2010 by APBT

[WreckitWhippet]

The issue of BSL is an extremely complex one. It is not based on a breed or public safety but support from different groups for different reasons. The SBT, AST and APBT are one and the same. Animal welfare groups support BSL as it is a leg - in to end pet ownership a la PETA and HSUS and our own local versions who also use it to scare people into donating to them. It also gives the option of killing dogs because "it's the law", the fact that breed id's are being done by unqualified people and dogs are even being temperment tested to death with unscientific methods. More money for those executives lucky to travel at the dogs expense.

Individuals like it as it allows them to clean up society and if you listen closely to their words "the types of people who own those types of dogs" are the real target of BSL.

Governments like it as it allows legislation to control people and gain access to their property to be passed without anyone opposing it. Just like the anti-terror legislation which closely mimicks bsl.

Anyone who thinks their breed is safe will be woken up when Australia follows the UK with legislation based on the PDE doco.

The sooner dog owners get their head around the fact that BSL is not about dogs the sooner it will be overturned.

The AST, SBT and APBT are not the same dog, please dont post that kind of information on a public forum for uneducated people to believe it.

They aren't the same, similiar, but not the same. They are not even the same by apearence. Working staffords could pass as an APBT by appearence, but not all working APBT could pass as a staff by apearence. This by its self shows the difference in the 2 breeds and the different direction some of the breeding programs have went over the last 100 years. I would say they were the same if they were continually crossed into one another or even every couple generations but it has been a long seperation and breeding goals have probably been slightly different even though they are both working dogs.

What is a "working Stafford" ?

[sandgrubber]

So how does the Dogo Argentino and the Presa Canario fit into this theory?

Spend a bit of time googling and you'll answer your own question . . .

The Dogo originated as a fighting dog. See http://www.bulldoginformation.com/dogo-argentino.html

The Presa has a reputation for killing people due to a few spectacular cases that got a lot of press, and there has been a worry about them gaining popularity among people wanting 'tough' dogs. see

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/200...sa_canario.html

Edited March 9, 2010 by sandgrubber

[justin19801]

The issue of BSL is an extremely complex one. It is not based on a breed or public safety but support from different groups for different reasons. The SBT, AST and APBT are one and the same. Animal welfare groups support BSL as it is a leg - in to end pet ownership a la PETA and HSUS and our own local versions who also use it to scare people into donating to them. It also gives the option of killing dogs because "it's the law", the fact that breed id's are being done by unqualified people and dogs are even being temperment tested to death with unscientific methods. More money for those executives lucky to travel at the dogs expense.

Individuals like it as it allows them to clean up society and if you listen closely to their words "the types of people who own those types of dogs" are the real target of BSL.

Governments like it as it allows legislation to control people and gain access to their property to be passed without anyone opposing it. Just like the anti-terror legislation which closely mimicks bsl.

Anyone who thinks their breed is safe will be woken up when Australia follows the UK with legislation based on the PDE doco.

The sooner dog owners get their head around the fact that BSL is not about dogs the sooner it will be overturned.

The AST, SBT and APBT are not the same dog, please dont post that kind of information on a public forum for uneducated people to believe it.

They aren't the same, similiar, but not the same. They are not even the same by apearence. Working staffords could pass as an APBT by appearence, but not all working APBT could pass as a staff by apearence. This by its self shows the difference in the 2 breeds and the different direction some of the breeding programs have went over the last 100 years. I would say they were the same if they were continually crossed into one another or even every couple generations but it has been a long seperation and breeding goals have probably been slightly different even though they are both working dogs.

Anyone who studies the history of the breed/s knows that they are the same. Yes they do differ in appearance as the standards for judging differ but they are still the same dog. Dogfighters don't make the distinction you are making, neither do legislators throughout the world. The UK sees ASTs and APBTs as the same, only Aust & NZ differentiate the two. I'm not saying its good or bad or right or wrong, just fact. By working Staffs I presume you mean Irish Staffies, KC registered longer legged staffs. Yes they too are the same. Trying to distance the breeds hasn't worked anywhere else and there is a move to classify them all as dangerous. Even the Am Bulldog. Rather than arguing amongst ourselves and navel gazing we should be fighting BSL no matter which "breed" is affected as in the end it affects us all as it's not about the dogs, it's about us, the owners.

[justin19801]

So how does the Dogo Argentino and the Presa Canario fit into this theory?

Spend a bit of time googling and you'll answer your own question . . .

The Dogo originated as a fighting dog. See http://www.bulldoginformation.com/dogo-argentino.html

The Presa has a reputation for killing people due to a few spectacular cases that got a lot of press, and there has been a worry about them gaining popularity among people wanting 'tough' dogs. see

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/200...sa_canario.html

All the breeds covered by BSL are or have been abused by dogfighters. Authorities should be spending their limited resources on fighting dogfighters, not killing pet dogs.

[WreckitWhippet]

The Kennel Club does not recognise "Irish Staffies", they recognise the Staffordshire Bull Terrier only.

So can someone tell me what a "working Stafford " is ?

[justin19801]

The Kennel Club does not recognise "Irish Staffies", they recognise the Staffordshire Bull Terrier only.

So can someone tell me what a "working Stafford " is ?

Irish staffies are KC registered SBTs which are bred longer in the leg and used by dogfighters in Ireland. The dogs have KC papers and are safe from BSL. As usual most are simply family pets. I assume that's what APBT means by working stafford. The show staffie is too short in the leg to be a working breed of any sort. In fact staffie owners from the UK find Aussie staffies impossible to be the same breed as the UK staffie, which of course they are. Many (not all thankfully) are a caricature of the old english pit bull.

Off topic, when does one use the terms Staffy, Staffie, Staff or Stafford? Are they interchangeable? I use them interchngably but some people claim there is a difference but can't explain what it is.

[WreckitWhippet]

The Kennel Club does not recognise "Irish Staffies", they recognise the Staffordshire Bull Terrier only.

So can someone tell me what a "working Stafford " is ?

Irish staffies are KC registered SBTs which are bred longer in the leg and used by dogfighters in Ireland. The dogs have KC papers and are safe from BSL. As usual most are simply family pets. I assume that's what APBT means by working stafford. The show staffie is too short in the leg to be a working breed of any sort. In fact staffie owners from the UK find Aussie staffies impossible to be the same breed as the UK staffie, which of course they are. Many (not all thankfully) are a caricature of the old english pit bull.

Off topic, when does one use the terms Staffy, Staffie, Staff or Stafford? Are they interchangeable? I use them interchngably but some people claim there is a difference but can't explain what it is.

oh my dear dog, I've read it all now.

[APBT]

The issue of BSL is an extremely complex one. It is not based on a breed or public safety but support from different groups for different reasons. The SBT, AST and APBT are one and the same. Animal welfare groups support BSL as it is a leg - in to end pet ownership a la PETA and HSUS and our own local versions who also use it to scare people into donating to them. It also gives the option of killing dogs because "it's the law", the fact that breed id's are being done by unqualified people and dogs are even being temperment tested to death with unscientific methods. More money for those executives lucky to travel at the dogs expense.

Individuals like it as it allows them to clean up society and if you listen closely to their words "the types of people who own those types of dogs" are the real target of BSL.

Governments like it as it allows legislation to control people and gain access to their property to be passed without anyone opposing it. Just like the anti-terror legislation which closely mimicks bsl.

Anyone who thinks their breed is safe will be woken up when Australia follows the UK with legislation based on the PDE doco.

The sooner dog owners get their head around the fact that BSL is not about dogs the sooner it will be overturned.

The AST, SBT and APBT are not the same dog, please dont post that kind of information on a public forum for uneducated people to believe it.

They aren't the same, similiar, but not the same. They are not even the same by apearence. Working staffords could pass as an APBT by appearence, but not all working APBT could pass as a staff by apearence. This by its self shows the difference in the 2 breeds and the different direction some of the breeding programs have went over the last 100 years. I would say they were the same if they were continually crossed into one another or even every couple generations but it has been a long seperation and breeding goals have probably been slightly different even though they are both working dogs.

What is a "working Stafford" ?

[APBT]

Staffys from working lines, just like you have you working collies ect, the Working SBT's could pass as an APBT.

That working SBT looks very similar to this chinamane APBT.

Edited March 9, 2010 by APBT

[APBT]

The issue of BSL is an extremely complex one. It is not based on a breed or public safety but support from different groups for different reasons. The SBT, AST and APBT are one and the same. Animal welfare groups support BSL as it is a leg - in to end pet ownership a la PETA and HSUS and our own local versions who also use it to scare people into donating to them. It also gives the option of killing dogs because "it's the law", the fact that breed id's are being done by unqualified people and dogs are even being temperment tested to death with unscientific methods. More money for those executives lucky to travel at the dogs expense.

Individuals like it as it allows them to clean up society and if you listen closely to their words "the types of people who own those types of dogs" are the real target of BSL.

Governments like it as it allows legislation to control people and gain access to their property to be passed without anyone opposing it. Just like the anti-terror legislation which closely mimicks bsl.

Anyone who thinks their breed is safe will be woken up when Australia follows the UK with legislation based on the PDE doco.

The sooner dog owners get their head around the fact that BSL is not about dogs the sooner it will be overturned.

The AST, SBT and APBT are not the same dog, please dont post that kind of information on a public forum for uneducated people to believe it.

They aren't the same, similiar, but not the same. They are not even the same by apearence. Working staffords could pass as an APBT by appearence, but not all working APBT could pass as a staff by apearence. This by its self shows the difference in the 2 breeds and the different direction some of the breeding programs have went over the last 100 years. I would say they were the same if they were continually crossed into one another or even every couple generations but it has been a long seperation and breeding goals have probably been slightly different even though they are both working dogs.

Anyone who studies the history of the breed/s knows that they are the same. Yes they do differ in appearance as the standards for judging differ but they are still the same dog. Dogfighters don't make the distinction you are making, neither do legislators throughout the world. The UK sees ASTs and APBTs as the same, only Aust & NZ differentiate the two. I'm not saying its good or bad or right or wrong, just fact. By working Staffs I presume you mean Irish Staffies, KC registered longer legged staffs. Yes they too are the same. Trying to distance the breeds hasn't worked anywhere else and there is a move to classify them all as dangerous. Even the Am Bulldog. Rather than arguing amongst ourselves and navel gazing we should be fighting BSL no matter which "breed" is affected as in the end it affects us all as it's not about the dogs, it's about us, the owners.

they were once the same dog but the amstaff went the way of show dog and the pit bull stayed in the pit. basically 40 years of breeding created the two diffrent dogs that you see today. the am staffs were bred for the show ring, while the pit bull was bred for gameness.

[APBT]

Heres a bit of history to read, some very good info here

http://www.northernstafford.co.nz/staffordhistory.htm

[Jed]

Same old, same old. The bite stats have been similar for 10 years to my certain knowledge, with changes in order - mostly ACD are at the top.

Before BSL, APBT was still far down the list. If the stats are adjusted for probable numbers in breeds (or as much as they can be, as there are few accurate figures on breed numbers), the APBT is still far down the list.

Breed ID's are often incorrect. If the neighbour's dog attacks, it is probably known what breed or cross it is, if a strange dog attacks, breed id is often a lottery. The dog may be identified by someone who is highly stressed, and had little dog knowledge.

It was determined that BSL would be enacted in Australia. That followed banning pitbulls in various other places, notably Germany, because an APBT and a "staffy" attacked and killed a child. Both dogs belonged to criminal elements, and were used for fighting. I believe the APBT was believed not to have eaten for several days.

RSPCA, notably Hugh Wirth, supported and encouraged bans. CCCQ supported bans, and offered to do breed training to council ACOs. BSL was first enacted in Toowoomba Q following an attack by a dog identified as a pitbull which resulted in the death of a senior lady. On PM the dog was identified as a "labrador crossed with some sort of bull breed". The dog had been accessed from the local pound by a youth who attested he would "make the dog savage". He certainly succeeded. The dog was destroyed, and Toowoomba banned pit bulls and Amstaffs - because they couldn't tell one from the other.

Legislation was enacted, and all other Queensland councils followed. Other states followed as well.

Prior to that the Murdoch newspapers, particularly the SMH ran a concerted campaign over years to vilify the pit bull to the public. Every week, there was a feature in the paper about the evils of the pitbull. Either a dog attack, or that the dogs had "locking jaws" or "2000 lb jaw pressure". One week, they ran out of attacks, so they imported a photo from o/s of two brown dogs rocking a car in Germany trying to get a cat under the car.

Over years, the media campaign was successful, and by the time the bans were enacted, the public (most of which had never seen a pit bull) was terrified of pitbulls, and firmly supported the bans.

As they still do.

The influence on the media may be seen today in this forum, where people who have no experience with pit bulls (or staffies) show approval of the bans, and tell us that pit bulls are dangerous.

BSL negated governments and councils' responsibility for dog attacks - instead of enforcing existing laws regarding all breeds, they could focus on the fact that they had banned those wretched pitbulls, and the public was safe.

Of course, since the bans, councils have added other breeds to the dogs banned, or restricted, within their shires. Including Newfoundlands, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Maremmas, Amstaffs etc.

At the UAM conferences I attended, it was quite apparent that councils welcomed BSL - some because they believed it would lower dog attacks, but most saw it for what it is. An out for councils' responsibility for dog attacks.

Dogs are the single biggest problem councils face.

justin 19801 is correct. BSL is part of a world wide campaign by animal rights to curtail animal ownership. The media beat up by the Murdoch newspapers followed similar beat ups in various countries, which were soon followed by bans.

Tail docking bans followed, with similar negative publicity, so the public was in favour. As with APBT, the public was led to believe a lot of incorrect information.

Now the extinction of purebred dogs, and breeding is beginning, with PDE, and various articles in newspapers vilifying and ridiculing pedigree dogs. Where once there was hardly any publicity on purebred dogs, now there is something negative almost every week. However, this ban will be achieved by squeezing breeders out. The number of pups bred has already declined, and will continue to do so. RSPCA is also squeezing breeders, and puppy farms.

In 20 years, there will be no dogs.

Nannas, you will not overturn bans on APBT by blaming other breeds. Whether they be crossbreds or staffies.

Some progress was made in Q by beating councils in court.

The only way ahead is to blame deed, not breed and to make that salient point in a rational, educated way to legislators.

Alas, it is too late.

And that's how it is. APBT went first, but the others will be picked off one by one, as per the directive of the European Convention. While we argue about tail docking, dog shows, whether purebreds are healthier, and whether the stats are correct.

And Nannas, you are incorrect, the ban on GSD importation was not overturned by blaming other breeds. It was overturned by a concerted campaign by GSD supporters to educate legislators particularly shire councillors, at every opportunity. GSDs were banned in some shires, but not in all.

I suggest you do a search of the forum over the past seven years, and you will find the issues you have raised have already been raised, and discussed.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Jed