Decided To Check Nsw Dog Attacks

[Paula-]

I still believe if they want to stop the attacks, they must do something about the dogs that ARE attacking.

Whatever happened to deed, not breed? :D

Hi Paula,

In what part of what you quoted from me,,,is there a breed mentioned????

I can see where a 'deed' is mentioned.

I was actually referring to your first post:

The highest offender is UNKNOWN breed (muts) at 429 attacks.

Bull Terrier (Staffordshire)- 288 attacks.

Australian Cattle Dog- 158 attacks.

German Shepherd Dog- 137 attacks.

Bull Terrier (Staffordshire) X- 110 attacks.

American Staffordshire Terrier- 103 attacks.

Rottweiler- 91 attacks.

Australian Kelpie- 65 attacks.

Jack Russell Terrier- 63 attacks.

Labrador Retriever- 56 attacks.

Siberian Husky- 51 attacks.

Australian Cattle Dog X- 48 attacks.

Boxer- 47 attacks.

Mastiff X- 42 attacks.

Border Collie- 41 attacks.

Bull Mastiff- 28 attacks.

Alaskan Malamute- 27 attacks.

Australian Kelpie X- 26 attacks.

Rottweiler X- 14 attacks.

Mastiff- 14 attacks.

Bull Terrier- 12 attacks.

Bull Terrier X- 12 attacks.

Maltese- 12 attacks.

GSD X- 10 attacks.

Rhodesian Ridgeback- 10 attacks.

AST X- 9 attacks.

Great Dane- 9 attacks.

and the the resulting pages of discussion

[WreckitWhippet]

One could argue that BSL is working, since there are no APBT's or PB's making up the current NSW stats.

Hi SBT,

Very good!!!!!

That IS the point.

BUT as you can see the attcks are still happening, and GROWING!!!! Not only that but as they grow, the number of attacks on children is growing.

591 attacks in Jan-March (75 children involved)

774 attacks in Apr-Jun (86 children involved)

823 attacks in Jul-Sept. (108 children involved)

So what do you think will happen now??

Do you think with Pits not making the list they will just leave BSL as it is and watch the attack rate rise each quarter OR do you think they will start adding MORE dogs to the restricted list?????????

At the end of the year when all data is collected and the attack rate has been slowly rising, what steps do we think they will take to try and lower the attack rate???

NSW has some of the strictest dog laws in the whole of Australia.

I wonder why NSW is one of the ONLY states that brought in a quarterly (compulsory) register to collect dog attack data on a state level?

Maybe NSW recognised that BSL was not working and thought the best way to confim or deny was to start a compulsory register on a state level to record dog attacks.

You cannot read anything into the NSW stats in terms of bites being on the increase. Mandatory reporting is still slowly filtering through and there were many councils who were not complying with the requirements ( council minutes, DLG circulars and audits show this ) . I expect that you will probably see another 6 - 12 months of stats that show an overall increase and things will then start to level out.

[Nannas]

You cannot read anything into the NSW stats in terms of bites being on the increase. Mandatory reporting is still slowly filtering through and there were many councils who were not complying with the requirements ( council minutes, DLG circulars and audits show this ) . I expect that you will probably see another 6 - 12 months of stats that show an overall increase and things will then start to level out.

Sorry SBT that is incorrect.

In the past Councils had not been reporting properly but in fact now ALL Council reports (in 2009) are ACCOUNTED for and ANY Councils that returns are 'zero' attack report are contacted and their reports are double checked and varified.

There are 152 Council districts covering the whole of NSW and every single Council has submitted their reports.

Also I don't think it matters what I read into it. What matters is what the NSW State reads into the reports.

It was NSW State that chose to only list the top 20 dogs, not me.

You have to actually write to them in hopes of being able to get the list of the dogs below the top 20.

Do you think it has to do with the actual amount of attacks or rather the areas where most attacks are occuring?

[Nannas]

Hi Paula,

That isn't naming a breed.

That is a whole list of breeds.

That is also not me blaming anything, that is the actual list taken from NSW State.

IF I was trying to palm off 'faults' on a certain breed by stating,,"it wasn't a pit, the XYZ breed did it" then I would understand.

I am not doing that. I am saying that out of 1,929 attacks listed the pit was not involved in ANY.

Out of the full reports in NSW of 2,188 attacks the most any pit type could have been involved in would be 30 or less.(otherwise it would have made it onto the list)

Now if you are really thinking, what do you think is going to be done with these reports.

Stop worrying about fighting a point of whether I am 'pointing' at another breed and think about what these reports will be used for.

Me listing the reports hasn't got anything to do with how they will effect me..(as I have stated I also own 2 dogs that are high up on those lists)

It is not me posting the reports that is an issue.

It is what the reports are being tallied for and what the state will use them for.

[Paula-]

That isn't naming a breed.

That is a whole list of breeds.

Yes.

You think that's better?

[chrisjc]

i dont see what difference it makes you can read it how you want, its a statistic , Nannas isnt highlighting a certain breed , she is using stats as a example nothing more nothing less.

stop trying to make it something its not.

you know the really dumb thing is if nannas was trying to make a point without the list they would get jumped on straight away by some asking for proof, at least theyve gone to the effort of adding it all up and posting it to look at.

so Nannas cant win either way?

[Sandra777]

But those statistics are proof of what exactly?

WHO IDENTIFIED THE BREEDS????????????????????????????

No I am not saying that certain breeds couldn't ever bite, but top of the list of "breeds" is a breed which MOST members of the public couldn't identify correctly if they fell over one. I have lost count of the times I have been told my 15inch specialist BiS winning bitch cannot possibly be a SBT because she is TOO SMALL! I have met dog control officers who couldn't tell the difference between a Neopolitan Mastiff and a Shar Pei and others who couldn't pick a pedigree Bull Terrier out of a line up of "pig dogs"

I am reminded of the true story of dog registrations in Kapiti in NZ. There were 300-odd "pitbulls" or "pitbull crosses" registered. The council outlawed "pit bulls" and the next registration year there were 2 "pitbulls" and 298 new "Staffy crosses". No bull, it happened.

[Nannas]

Hi,

In regards to the GSD import ban and the work that went in to fight it (which was great)

The GSD Club did point out that 'other breeds' were at fault.

During the fight other breeds were mentioned alot.

The GSD Club did promote the GSD well and did alot of hard work, but do not think for a minute that noone pointed fingers at other breeds.

That although some people mistook a large, pointy eared dog as a GSD when attacks were reported they were easily disproved, as lets face it a GSD is pretty easy to recognise.

The ban was only in fear of attacks on sheep/cattle etc. (not people)

There wasn't a prior poor history of the GSD from other countries to instill fear into people like that which has happened with pit types.

The GSD Club called on ALL people to join with them and fight for the GSD.

Now don't go getting up me for having a say as I have usually owned GSD's and they have always been my dog of choice.

I am just saying people cannot keep comparing and rationalising the GSD issues that went on for almost 1/2 a century to what is going on now with BSL.

I doubt many people in here could even remember that start of the ban on GSD and if they could they would be about 80yo.

We are talking about 2 different eras in time and 2 different reason for bans.

Imagine how many newspaper reports went out in 1930 compared to a report in 2000.

How many dogs of imported breeds would have been around in 1930 compared to how many breeds now.

You would think with almost 1/2 a century, and most areas wanting them desexed, that if the good old GSD owners followed the LAW as it was stated back then, then the GSD would have been wiped out from Australia.

(I mention that as so many people keep saying restricted breed owners should follow the law and do what the GSD supporters did, but infact most GSD owners were not following the law.)

It took almost 1/2 a century to lift the ban on the GSD so it wasn't one group of people fighting the battle.

It would have been generations of people. ALL asking for help.

The pit has gotten off on the wrong foot due to it's history (which far exceeds that of the GSD), plus the popularity of it's breed especially regarding the types of people often associated with owning them, which often makes them more notorious than famous.

It just may take 1/2 a century to clear them, as it did with the GSD.

Just let us have the same chances and opportunities.

[Nannas]

But those statistics are proof of what exactly?

WHO IDENTIFIED THE BREEDS????????????????????????????

No I am not saying that certain breeds couldn't ever bite, but top of the list of "breeds" is a breed which MOST members of the public couldn't identify correctly if they fell over one. I have lost count of the times I have been told my 15inch specialist BiS winning bitch cannot possibly be a SBT because she is TOO SMALL! I have met dog control officers who couldn't tell the difference between a Neopolitan Mastiff and a Shar Pei and others who couldn't pick a pedigree Bull Terrier out of a line up of "pig dogs"

I am reminded of the true story of dog registrations in Kapiti in NZ. There were 300-odd "pitbulls" or "pitbull crosses" registered. The council outlawed "pit bulls" and the next registration year there were 2 "pitbulls" and 298 new "Staffy crosses". No bull, it happened.

Hi,

Yep, we get alot of pits registered as staffies/crosses etc here.

Problem is when people are getting puppies microchipped/registered at 8 or 12 weeks old they can be a bit hard to ID.

Also some states they are legal so people just go interstate to register them.

As far as IDing the breeds go. I can understand a few issues with the mixes, but really you want to know who decides if the dog is a GSD or a poodle???

In the top 20 list I can understand people doubting a few of the breeds but the majority I thought would be pretty basic and clear.

What if I said the SAME people who do the "Breed Assessment" on our dogs when we are served with NOI's are the same ones doing the ID on dog attacks.?

Would that suit everyone?

To know that the same people who are there to harrass us and declare our dogs 'restricted' are the same ones checking the breeds for attack reporting....

It can actually depend on what the dog attacks and how bad it is.

Sometimes the dogs appear to be exactly as they are registered and the owner doesn't argue the point then the dog is listed as such.

Some actually have papers and there you go for those.

Others that are thought to be a pit cross, if there is a dispute and an investigation actually go through proper testing.

You could check the lists and read about it yourself.

It states how many were PTS, how many were fined, how many were taken in then released (after testing) etc.

If you were really interested you could contact NSW State Companion Animals ACT and find out all the answers for yourself, rather than relying on me to pass on info.

I cannot put up the link,,I tried before and I don't think it worked. Maybe someone else could do it.

[WreckitWhippet]

There is no such thing as the NSW State Companion Animals ACT

The Companion Animals Act 1998, is a piece of legislation.

The DLG have a Companion Animals division located in Nowra, they are very helpful.

[nickojoy]

Yep, we get alot of pits registered as staffies/crosses etc here.

Problem is when people are getting puppies microchipped/registered at 8 or 12 weeks old they can be a bit hard to ID.

Yep and even this is happening in the NSW pounds with adults. The staff think because it is a nice temp dog it needs to be saved and then chipped as a SBT cross or a ASBT cross. This then give the SBT and ASBT bad names when a incident occurs.

I also see a lot of people in Sydney walking their PBs with no DD collar on, there is no way the identifier can get the breed wrong. Are the people that are chipping these animals collecting a bit of money under the table?

[chrisjc]

What is giving our dogs a bad name is someone making an assumtion that if a dogs wearing a dd collar its automatically a apbt.

A dd collar is a way of people knowing that a dog is dangerous when it is in public or even at home, its not a way to know what breed of dog it is.

and what your proposing would hardly have a ripple in the water imho. there are just as many owners of those beeds you mentioned that are bad owners as there are apbt owners.

in fact i have never had another pitbull owner come up to me to tell me how bad ass their dog was and how it could whip mine. ive had more than i can count on two hand of the breeds you have mentioned.

[Sandra777]

As far as IDing the breeds go. I can understand a few issues with the mixes, but really you want to know who decides if the dog is a GSD or a poodle???

In the top 20 list I can understand people doubting a few of the breeds but the majority I thought would be pretty basic and clear.

It's not a matter of knowing the difference between a GSD & a Poodle - but identifying random cross bred mongrels as "GSD x" because they have prick ears and a bushy coat, or "Staffy x" because they're brindle. In most countries you will find Labradors very high on the list, however "Labrador" is used to describe any black and yellow dog with floppy ears...black and yellow dogs with rose/half prick ears are "pit bulls"

"Blue Heelers" (or Blue Healers as they are popularly known!) get a beating, anything that doesn't fit any other description goes down as one.

I vividly remember seeing one of those US animal shows where they picked up a bitch and her pup. The pup was black and white collie marked with fluff, the dam was smooth coated with rose ears. The bitch had to be put down because she was a "pit bull" but the puppy could be rehomed because he was a "collie cross"! (No, not saying being a "pit bull" cross is bad)

[Nannas]

Yep, we get alot of pits registered as staffies/crosses etc here.

Problem is when people are getting puppies microchipped/registered at 8 or 12 weeks old they can be a bit hard to ID.

Yep and even this is happening in the NSW pounds with adults. The staff think because it is a nice temp dog it needs to be saved and then chipped as a SBT cross or a ASBT cross. This then give the SBT and ASBT bad names when a incident occurs.

I also see a lot of people in Sydney walking their PBs with no DD collar on, there is no way the identifier can get the breed wrong. Are the people that are chipping these animals collecting a bit of money under the table?

Hi nickojoy,

I think there would be a few people from all areas thinking they are helping and chipping/registering pits/crosses as something else.

I know of a pound that knew people that owned a pit cross and after it was caught roaming for the umteenth time (the first few times the pound dropped it off at home) the pound chipped it as a staffy cross for the people, as the pound guy said the dog was friendly etc.

Needless to say the dog wasn't so freindly and is now dead.

I knew the dog from a puppy and she was lovely, but her owners got sick of her and so the neglect began. They didn't want to sell her or give her away, but didn't want to look after her either.

There are some vets I know of in NSW that will help with pit/crosses. I guess they think they are helping, and probably are, but it gets icky sticky trying to sort it all out.

[Nannas]

It's not a matter of knowing the difference between a GSD & a Poodle - but identifying random cross bred mongrels as "GSD x" because they have prick ears and a bushy coat, or "Staffy x" because they're brindle. In most countries you will find Labradors very high on the list, however "Labrador" is used to describe any black and yellow dog with floppy ears...black and yellow dogs with rose/half prick ears are "pit bulls"

"Blue Heelers" (or Blue Healers as they are popularly known!) get a beating, anything that doesn't fit any other description goes down as one.

I vividly remember seeing one of those US animal shows where they picked up a bitch and her pup. The pup was black and white collie marked with fluff, the dam was smooth coated with rose ears. The bitch had to be put down because she was a "pit bull" but the puppy could be rehomed because he was a "collie cross"! (No, not saying being a "pit bull" cross is bad)

Hi Sandra,

Yup.

Same goes when it comes to IDing a pit and who gets to do it.

IF they use the same people to identify pits when attacks occur and everyone is happy to take the assessors word for it,,,,then why cannot those same assessors identify the dogs for the attack data??

I know there will be heaps of mistakes. No matter what happens, people are only human and mistakes will occur. It is only big cases and/or people with money etc that get to do testing to confirm the breed involved. I cannot imagine that would happen regularly.

I guess with most in here being dog people we have a certain knowledge of dogs, that we assume most people must know as it is just general knowledge (to us), but some people really have no clue.

I was walking my pit and GSDX a few weeks ago and 2 women stopped to talk. I was telling one lady not to touch my GSDX and to keep her kids away as the GSDX doesn't like kids. (yes she is muzzled and has warning collar)

This women proceeded to tell me she is OK as she knows ALL about dogs, was a breeder of champions, owned kennels for years, yadda, yadda, yadda.

She then turned to my 6yo almost black, pit bitch and said ""Not a bad Great Dane but he's a bit small" She looked behind my girl and then said "You got him castrated too young and stunted his growth"

As I was walking away this woman was lecturing the other woman about dogs and giving her the run down on dogs in general. Now imagine the information THIS woman would be passing onto people, who may even believe her as she is *loosley used* a breeder, kennel owner etc etc etc.

These are the people we have to get to first.

The people who are listening to these "woman" out there. There are so many that have no clue, no idea and actually listen to the people who can "talk under water".

I own 2 breeds that are high on that list and 1 that is already restricted.

Why would I be pointing fingers at my own dogs?

I am saying it is time we all were more aware of what is going on and what our state is doing in regards to dogs/attacks.

The list wasn't made for me, to help me post.

The list was made by NSW and is for a reason.

Contact NSW and ask them who ID's the dogs and if it is fair. Let them know of your concerns and tell them your US story.

This is what it is all about.

Collecting and sharing information, ideas and thoughts to make sure our dogs have the best life they possibley can.

[Nannas]

There is no such thing as the NSW State Companion Animals ACT

The Companion Animals Act 1998, is a piece of legislation.

The DLG have a Companion Animals division located in Nowra, they are very helpful.

Hi SBT,

Yep, the lady at Nowra is wonderful, although limited in some areas. She is helpful though and has good ideas/advice.

I keep stating NSW State Companion Animals Act,,,,,as whenever (not just here but other places) I just post Companion Animals Act, I get people from all over Australia and even overseas stating they could NOT find it for their area. Hence I keep stating NSW so they now it is a NSW thing I am refering to and it helps them google it.

Saying DLG doesn't really help many people as it brings up all kinds of weird stuff when googled.

Sorry if my way of phrasing things is upsetting to you but I just find stating it the way I do makes it easier for others to google and find, so that they may read up on stuff for themselves, and follow all the related links that they might use.

I had tried putting in a link in the first or second post but I don't think it worked and I have no idea how to do it,,,,so I just say the name of the area "NSW", the section it is found in "State" and the site page/reference "Companion Animals"

[WreckitWhippet]

really ?

Google " Companion Animals Act" and the very first listing is the one you need to view the legislation

Google "DLG " and you get surprise, surprise.. The Department of Local Government.

ETA: the links

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/dlg_...ex=301&mi=9

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/con...act/caa1998174/

Edited December 11, 2009 by SBT123

[tarope]

Why can't people learn that stats are a load of crap and prove nothing.

Just because as you say 137 people were bitten by GSD's means nothing, when in 2006 there were 35,700 pure bred registered GSD's. That's less than 1%. In the same year there were 24,000 pure bred registered Rotties again less than 1%.

We all know that BSL is wrong and no breed should be banned just because the Media and RSPCA don't like them, and no one should judge a breed by the number of people bitten by them.

It's the owner not the breed thats the problem, ban the deed not the breed.

Breed identification is the biggest problem, if it's big and black, it's a Rottie. The general public can't tell one breed from another, yet these same people read some Media report and all call for the breed to be banned what a bloody joke. ;)

[seventy six]

[The highest offender is UNKNOWN breed (muts) at 429 attacks.

Bull Terrier (Staffordshire)- 288 attacks.

Australian Cattle Dog- 158 attacks.

German Shepherd Dog- 137 attacks.

Bull Terrier (Staffordshire) X- 110 attacks.

American Staffordshire Terrier- 103 attacks.

Rottweiler- 91 attacks.

Australian Kelpie- 65 attacks.

Jack Russell Terrier- 63 attacks.

Labrador Retriever- 56 attacks.

Siberian Husky- 51 attacks.

Australian Cattle Dog X- 48 attacks.

Boxer- 47 attacks.

Mastiff X- 42 attacks.

Border Collie- 41 attacks.

Bull Mastiff- 28 attacks.

Alaskan Malamute- 27 attacks.

Australian Kelpie X- 26 attacks.

Rottweiler X- 14 attacks.

Mastiff- 14 attacks.

Bull Terrier- 12 attacks.

Bull Terrier X- 12 attacks.

Maltese- 12 attacks.

GSD X- 10 attacks.

Rhodesian Ridgeback- 10 attacks.

AST X- 9 attacks.

Great Dane- 9 attacks.

The dogs/breeds listed highest on the reports are mentioned on each quarter. These are the dogs/breeds attacking more often and regularly throughout the year.

I was thinking of checking each state (maybe someone from each state might like to check) and see what is reported on a state level.

If the pit cannot even make INTO the top 20 list (let alone to the TOP of the list) in three quarters of a year, then what is BSL based on???

Are they assuming that all the 'mut' unknown breeds that top the list might have some pit in them somwhere???

Believe me if they even had an OUNCE of 'thought' that one of those ''unknown breeds'' had even the slightest 'pit' in it,,it WOULD have been listed as a "APBT CROSS" on the list.

whats the difference between a pitbull and a american staffordshire bullterrier ??????

[sandgrubber]

Hi,

Those were NOT statistics.

Those were actual reported attacks.

What more can people want than an actual reports of ATTACKS????

No matter what type of attack...

The breed at the TOP of the list is obviously the breed being in a POSITION where it is able to attack!!!

That IS the problem...

WHY euthanize someones APBT because an 'unknown breed' attacks 400 odd times????

Certainly placing BSL restrictions on the dogs topping the list would have more of an effect than having BSL on a dog that doesn't even make the list.

Hopefully statistics represent actual attacks.

If there are 30k Labradors and 1k APBT's, and each breed had an equal propensity to attack, I'd expect 30 times more Labrador attacks than APBT's. That won't be shown in any statistics collected anywhere.

Whether the stats are accurate, how to deal with X-breeds, and how to deal with the stats is a dicey question.

Normalizing the number of attacks by the number of dog is commonsense and entirely justified by science.

I wish to hell there were a better way to focus the law on irresponsible owners who enjoy violence rather than focusing on breed. So far as I can see, to quote Mr Bumble in Oliver Twist, 'the law is an ass'. I admire pitties; but I don't think anyone should have to suffer the consequences of a badly bred pitty or any other breed who ends up on the hands of someone who loves to see blood flow.

Edited February 28, 2010 by sandgrubber