Osca Had Another Seizure

[poodle proud]

Hi all,

I posted earlier in the year about some seizures Osca had after using advantix. I rang Bayer at the time who make the product and they said some dogs can react to the permethrin in it and while uncommon is possible particularly in swf breeds.

So Bayer sent out some advantage to use and out of fear I havent touched until this week. I have gone back to sentinel spectrum but when I saw some fleas on Osca I thought I would give the advantage a try.

So I gave it to him about 5 days ago. I am ususally home more often but have been working extra this week. So my first night at home with him last night he seized. He staggered and it was assymetrical. He was wobbling to one side, was shaking and was glassy-eyed. It lasted about 1 minute and he settled over the next hour.

I rang Bayer this morning and they say they discussed it with their vet and that it was near impossible for it to be the advantage as the adavantage has a local effect in the oil glands and does not go into the bloodstream. They said it was coincidence.

I just need some advice. I want to rush him off to the vet but OH wants to watch him. He thinks it is obviously cause and effect from the advantage as this is the first seizure in over 6 months and coincides with the first application of anything like this since the last time. He is also reluctant to put him through tests and expose him to radiation from ct scans as a vet on the phone suggested.

Bayer have been good but as OH said they are a company and it isnt in their best interest to suggest their product could be the cause.

I am not convinced either way but would love some input.

Thanks.

PP

[OSoSwift]

Poor Oscar, and you as well. Never a nice thing to see.

I haven't seen a problem with Advantage apart from a localised problem, but anything is possible. I would say if it was my dog it is too much of a coincidence and not use that product again.

Keep a very close eye on him and I guess if he has a seizure again then yes it might be a coincidence.

Can you use a diffferent adulticide product? One who's ingredients are different?

Is he relatively normal at the moment? If he is there is probably not much to be gained by taking to the vets, especially if you are not going to have testing done. If he hasn't returned to normal then a vet visit and basic blood work would probably be a good place to start.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Rommi n Lewis

[poodle proud]

Poor Oscar, and you as well. Never a nice thing to see.

I haven't seen a problem with Advantage apart from a localised problem, but anything is possible. I would say if it was my dog it is too much of a coincidence and not use that product again.

Keep a very close eye on him and I guess if he has a seizure again then yes it might be a coincidence.

Can you use a diffferent adulticide product? One who's ingredients are different?

Is he relatively normal at the moment? If he is there is probably not much to be gained by taking to the vets, especially if you are not going to have testing done. If he hasn't returned to normal then a vet visit and basic blood work would probably be a good place to start.

Thanks Rommi n Lewis,

I obviously want the absolute best for him but I don't want to go overboard. Since we had to pts my childhood dog with a tumour earlier in the year I get worried about any change in my two. OH thinks the same as you and I want to feel at ease with that. I just don't want to miss anything healthwise and have regrets later. If there was medicare for dogs I would have been at the vets at first light but....

So I want to be aware but rational about how I handle these sorts of things.

I gave him a bath to wash anything left over. When I was drying his face he started to bleed from a hair follicle (i think) and has been licking his front paws more than usual but other than that he is himself.

OH wants to not use any topical flea/tick treatments on him again and then if he has another one get him to the vet and start tests.

I think in terms of flea treatment we will bomb the house and keep using the sentinel spectrum. I don't know what else to use because I don't want him to put him at risk of another reaction again.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I definitely wouldn't use spot ons again if it were me.

You can use capstar twice a week for several weeks and that should help knock down any adult population you have (as well as your plans to bomb the house).

[OSoSwift]

Poor Oscar, and you as well. Never a nice thing to see.

I haven't seen a problem with Advantage apart from a localised problem, but anything is possible. I would say if it was my dog it is too much of a coincidence and not use that product again.

Keep a very close eye on him and I guess if he has a seizure again then yes it might be a coincidence.

Can you use a diffferent adulticide product? One who's ingredients are different?

Is he relatively normal at the moment? If he is there is probably not much to be gained by taking to the vets, especially if you are not going to have testing done. If he hasn't returned to normal then a vet visit and basic blood work would probably be a good place to start.

Thanks Rommi n Lewis,

I obviously want the absolute best for him but I don't want to go overboard. Since we had to pts my childhood dog with a tumour earlier in the year I get worried about any change in my two. OH thinks the same as you and I want to feel at ease with that. I just don't want to miss anything healthwise and have regrets later. If there was medicare for dogs I would have been at the vets at first light but....

So I want to be aware but rational about how I handle these sorts of things.

I gave him a bath to wash anything left over. When I was drying his face he started to bleed from a hair follicle (i think) and has been licking his front paws more than usual but other than that he is himself.

OH wants to not use any topical flea/tick treatments on him again and then if he has another one get him to the vet and start tests.

I think in terms of flea treatment we will bomb the house and keep using the sentinel spectrum. I don't know what else to use because I don't want him to put him at risk of another reaction again.

It's always easier to be rational when it's not your own dog! I find it very hard to be rational when it involves my own.

I think that avoiding Spot on flea treatments would be a good way to go. It may even be that Oscar is sensitive and it takes something like the spot on to make him fit. Time will tell if it is product related or not.

Washing him is also a very good idea.

Hope all is well now, but at any sign of him not being right I would definately get him looked at.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Rommi n Lewis

[kiesha09]

Everyone has given you great advice so far. But when I really think about it if it were my dog I would definately be seeing a vet even if it was for my own piece of mind.

I would want to check that there was not some underlying condition that is triggered by the Advantage. Yes it all seems coincidental but I think its better to have it checked out than be sorry later.

ETA: I hope that Osca is feeling better now!!!

Edited December 4, 2009 by kiesha09

[TangerineDream]

It actually sounds like an allergic reaction that he's having....

[persephone]

It was 5 days after application.... I would think an allergic or other reaction would show up sooner? or not?....

[poodle proud]

Thanks everybody for your replies and well wishes!

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that has trouble staying calm about these things Rommi n Lewis

Staff'n'Toller: Do many dogs react to capstar? As you can imagine I get nervous about trying anything new.

I truly hope it was an allergic reaction to the advantage. Bayer saying it's unlikely doesnt mean impossible and maybe as others have suggested Osca is that sensitive to spot-ons.

OH has said that if he has another seizure or goes downhill we will take him to the vet. I would like the piece of mind now but I'm trying to be reasonable and have to be realistic about the funds we have available :p

All I can say is thank God for DOL!!!

[oakway]

If it took 5 days to have a reaction, I would be looking for another cause. :p

[persephone]

Honestly- if osca was mine- no way would I be giving him oral insecticide..no matter how safe it reportedly is.

Flea bomb your house- thoroughly, and stay away all day or overnight while you air it well,vacuum thoroughly, give him entirely new bedding and look at

NATURAL WAYS to help control any fleas you notice.

If he is prone to seizures, the less chemical floating around in his system, the better, IMO.

Edited December 4, 2009 by persephone

[frufru]

When you look at natural flea control just remember that some substances like tea tree oil, eucalyptus etc can also act as triggers for seizures- lady down the road nearly killed her jrt by putting tea tree oil on it - toxic

Why did your vet suggest a ct scan at this point? - sorry have not been following previous posts. Diagnostically what has been done to date?

[ozjen]

Hi all,

I posted earlier in the year about some seizures Osca had after using advantix. I rang Bayer at the time who make the product and they said some dogs can react to the permethrin in it and while uncommon is possible particularly in swf breeds.

So Bayer sent out some advantage to use and out of fear I havent touched until this week. I have gone back to sentinel spectrum but when I saw some fleas on Osca :p I thought I would give the advantage a try.

So I gave it to him about 5 days ago. I am ususally home more often but have been working extra this week. So my first night at home with him last night he seized. He staggered and it was assymetrical. He was wobbling to one side, was shaking and was glassy-eyed. It lasted about 1 minute and he settled over the next hour.

I rang Bayer this morning and they say they discussed it with their vet and that it was near impossible for it to be the advantage as the adavantage has a local effect in the oil glands and does not go into the bloodstream. They said it was coincidence.

I just need some advice. I want to rush him off to the vet but OH wants to watch him. He thinks it is obviously cause and effect from the advantage as this is the first seizure in over 6 months and coincides with the first application of anything like this since the last time. He is also reluctant to put him through tests and expose him to radiation from ct scans as a vet on the phone suggested.

Bayer have been good but as OH said they are a company and it isnt in their best interest to suggest their product could be the cause.

I am not convinced either way but would love some input.

Thanks.

PP

You might want to check out this site for a natural safer alternative if you are worried that the flea treatment is causing the problem.

http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/diatomac...arth_fleas.html

[t-time]

Poodleproud - so sorry to hear about Oscar ;)

Like some other posters here, I am starting to think that Oscar may have an underlying condition as the reaction occurred so long after application

You would think that if you applied the Advantage and he was going to have a reaction to it, it should have happened within 24-48 hours. I've not heard of a reaction coming on so late after application and even though they *are* a company, I'm thinking they are right this time! ;)

Could be a possibility that the spot-on applications are complicating an underlying condition but as I'm not a vet, I don't quite know how that would occur?

I would go with your vets' advice and get the CT scan. The "radiation" is nothing more than you get with a standard xray but I would be asking your vet specifically what condition/s they are looking for and get it in writing - sometimes these scans are done and they still can't give you any answers but at least if you know what they are looking for it may give you some peace of mind.

What was the bleeding from on Oscar? Flea bites? Or can't you tell? You also mentioned he was chewing his feet - is this new or is it getting worse?

[Staff'n'Toller]

I haven't known any dogs to react but obviously it's user beware. It has a very short duration of activity though ~12hrs.

I agree though that if you notice any more seizure activity further investigation is warranted.

[sandgrubber]

The cause of seizures can be difficult to diagnose, and many people go into denial re epilepsy, which is probably the most common cause. Also, there is great misunderstanding about manifestations of epilepsy. Not all epileptic seizures develop into the full terrifying grand mal type. The language for partial or atypical seizures is all over the place . .. . but at least in my breed (Labradors), partial/atypical light seizures are more common than the classic heavy duty kind.

What were the seizures like? If Osca is epileptic, no amount of changing flea treatments will make the condition go away. I wouldn't go for expensive diagnoses . . . which are often inconclusive for epilepsy . . . and I would let things go for a few months on a treatment and then change to a chemically unrelated treatment before pointing the finger at the flea treatment.

[poodle proud]

Thanks Persephone and ozjen for the links And thankyou to everyone else for your replies.

Poodleproud - so sorry to hear about Oscar

I would go with your vets' advice and get the CT scan. The "radiation" is nothing more than you get with a standard xray

Thanks t-time for your concern

Actually the radiation from a ct scan is roughly about one thousand times that of a plain x-ray and aside from detecting a mass of some sort they are unlikley to be very useful when looking at abnormal brain activity. OH works in Nuclear medicine.

What were the seizures like? If Osca is epileptic, no amount of changing flea treatments will make the condition go away. I wouldn't go for expensive diagnoses . . . which are often inconclusive for epilepsy . . . and I would let things go for a few months on a treatment and then change to a chemically unrelated treatment before pointing the finger at the flea treatment.

All seizures have manifested similarly with weakness on one side, glazed look, and trembling for 30-60 seconds with Osca returning to normal within 30-60 minutes.

For the first 2 of 3 seizures both the vet and Bayer pointed the finger at the treatments, namely the permethrin in it as they have seen this reaction before.

Frufru;

The 2 vets I have taken him to have said the same thing and have not reccommended any investigations at the time. This last time I called them I spoke to one of the senior vet nurses and she was going through what they would use to help identify the cause which is when the ct was brought up. So basically nothing has been done at this stage.

Osca is due his annual vacc and check-up in early january so I will be bringing up all of my concerns with a new vet thanks to some DOL reccomendations.

It may purely be coincidence that Osca has not had a seziure since the last application of a spot on and then suddenly has one within a week of application of one. I am thankfully working very little leading up to Christmas/new year so I'll be home to watch him. If anything else happens he'll be at the vets in a flash. I am not unconvinced that there is some underlying cause but at the moment we are going to cease the use of spot-ons and watch Osca until his check-up.

edited for spelling.

Edited December 6, 2009 by poodle proud

[~Anne~]

I agree with sandgrubber on many points they have posted.

Incidently, I give my epileptic boy Capstar all the time and have never had an issue. Monte has no triggers though. It is true idiopathic epilepsy and its best (or worst).