Bad Dog

[flux]

Hi all,

Jazz, our 4 month old puppy doesn't seem to do much wrong. We try very hard to keep her walked, fed, trained and stimulated (plus loved) and for the most part any un-wanted behaviour can be very quickly re-directed and corrected - until - she's now discovered the joys of pinching things off our cabinet in the one room in the house she is allowed in, the kitchen. So I figure, puppy learning here, i better keep my eye about her and catch her in the act. Because she will be such a big girl I really wanted to hammer jumping up onto tables (front feet only at the moment) as a big negative, so finally I catch her jumping up and I leap up and sounding very angry I growl out a BAD DOG!.... to very little effect. In fact our charming princess looked back at me blankly as if to say "man what's your problem?" not even a glimmer of "Oh, did I do something wrong?" as she casually jumps down, possibly more from confusion/bemusement than anything else. Unfortunately, so surprised by her lack of reaction to what I thought was a great "bag dog" and seeing as she did get down (although I think for all the wrong reasons) I didn't do anything further.

I had a similar problem when she was younger, when she decided barking at me was great, she did it once and I quipped back a "no" then to my surprise she barked back her "No"louder, so I barked again and we went back and forth until I realised that I must not be angry/firm/serious enough (or possibly too wound up and angry to be taken seriously??). So after hearing about the sound of a rolled up newspaper on a hand and it's effect on barking, I set up the situation again, and this time when the "no" "game" started I tried again to silence it by myself, but resorted to smacking the newspaper against my hand while saying "No" and that seemed to get through instantly and she backed down looking shocked. After that she seemed to give me a lot more respect, and she has never barked at a person "in that way" since.

I now feel that this is a bit of the same situation. I don't think she knows a "no". She knows "leave it" and "wait" that are I guess a "negative" in that they ask her to wait a while or give something up and she's pretty good with them, but when it boils down to it I don't think I have anything to basically be the ultimate BAD DOG, i.e soooo not impressed, never do that again. I wondered where I am going wrong. I am a big believer in saying what you mean, and don't pretend to be cross, when I'm cross with her I'm really cross and I try very hard to project a whole "leader is angry with you" - yet it's clear from her behaviour that I must not any sort of leader in her view. I'm a bit confused as to what else to do. I would like her not to do something because I/we dissaprove, not simply because we've re-modelled the house around her (although a point to make here is that I do understand she is learning and i have removed all temptation from the cabinet, this is more about her reaction to my energy/vibe/command). Any views on this one? What am I missing here? Thanks!

[Nekhbet]

dogs dont understand english at all. You can scream 'banana' until you're blue in the face its about the same as whats happening now

if she doesnt move get up and move her or take the object. I find 'grrr' makes it a little more black and white or 'ahhh' and when they understand that then add the word you want to use.

[flux]

Thanks Nekhbet - I had been attempting to growl, but this gets even less a response. I don't think I have the right attitude behind the noise?? Are you angry when making the negative noise? i wonder if I'm too angry to be taken seriously, maybe need to be more firm than angry??

And yes, I've been moving her too, but thanks again it's great to have some feedback.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Flux

[macka]

When I was having issues with my dog jumping up at the kitchen counter or hanging around the bin looking for things to steal no amount of yelling or telling her no or water-squirting had any affect on her whatsoever.

What worked in the end was every time she jumped up at the counter or touched the bin I quietly and calmly took her to a time-out spot and left her there for a few minutes.

No yelling, no getting angry, no back and forth.

It took 3 weeks of doing this very consistently to break the habits - but now she NEVER does these things any more.

You have to be consistent and of course you have to catch them doing it for this method to work, but it works.

ETA I found the yelling/getting angry to be counter-productive with my dog as she just fed off that excited energy I was giving her. She was doing these things to get attention and the yelling etc just gave her that attention, even though it was negative it was enough for her to keep doing it.

Edited December 3, 2009 by macka

[luvsdogs]

When I was having issues with my dog jumping up at the kitchen counter or hanging around the bin looking for things to steal no amount of yelling or telling her no or water-squirting had any affect on her whatsoever.

What worked in the end was every time she jumped up at the counter or touched the bin I quietly and calmly took her to a time-out spot and left her there for a few minutes.

No yelling, no getting angry, no back and forth.

It took 3 weeks of doing this very consistently to break the habits - but now she NEVER does these things any more.

You have to be consistent and of course you have to catch them doing it for this method to work, but it works.

ETA I found the yelling/getting angry to be counter-productive with my dog as she just fed off that excited energy I was giving her. She was doing these things to get attention and the yelling etc just gave her that attention, even though it was negative it was enough for her to keep doing it.

As Stanley Coren says, yelling to a dog is the human barking back. Good advice macka.

[corvus]

I think effective use of punishments is one thing a lot of people struggle with in dog training.

I don't like to use punishments at all, and if I do I make sure they don't obviously come from me, and that I'm doing plenty of teaching what TO do with rewards so they don't just go back to it. That's not just to protect my relationship with my dog, but also so they don't think being punished for a behaviour they like doing only happens when the person is around.

You could try a pile of empty cans on the bench. When she jumps up the cans will fall all over the place making a lot of noise. I've heard that used with a good deal of success.

If it were me, and I'd tried redirecting her the very moment she looks at the table every time, and I'd tried putting looking at the cabinet WITHOUT jumping on it on cue and only rewarding it when she did it on cue, never when she offered it.... if I'd tried those and she was still jumping up, then I'd set about installing an inhibition with punishments. If done correctly, it should only take a few repetitions, but be warned that the more you use a punishment the less effective it becomes. And a punished behaviour can come back if you don't take control of the situation and train them what they should be doing.

[macka]

And a punished behaviour can come back if you don't take control of the situation and train them what they should be doing.

I very much agree with this too, and would add that sometimes training them what they should be doing is simply a matter of catching your dog doing something good and remembering to praise.

At the same time as doing my "time outs" punishment with Leia I really tried to take note of any time she was just sitting or lying down quietly in the house and praised her for it. Sometimes just pats/verbal, but sometimes I'd surprise her with a treat.

At first she probably thought I was a bit mad but she soon caught on that quiet, calm behavior is what I want when inside the house.

We also at the same time stopped playing games inside the house, so as not to confuse her. We still train inside, but games esp with a ball are outside only now.

[sas]

Having Danes, being able to reach things is always a problem.

We have a new foster Dane now that has no training and doesn't understand boundaries, we just use our body language and our actual bodies to let her know what not to do and praise her as soon as she complies even if it's by accident.

If we have to use a verbal it's a short sharp noise to distract/get attention.

[Sam&Saki]

If you yelled "no" or "bad dog" at my dog, she wouldn't react either

I find a stern "Uhhh" works much better than yelling / using words they don't know.

But really, it is a matter of redirecting. If your dog is stealing things, is she bored? Acting up? Fix this and there'll be no problem.

If it's not that, have you taught "off"? (As in, don't touch that, leave that alone.) She may not know what's she's doing is wrong. Make it clear to hear that the cabinet is "off", everything on the cabinet is "off" and reward her for staying away.

If you catch her in the act, say "Uhhh!" in a sharp, low tone (don't shout) and either use "off" or "down" and then reward her

[flux]

Hi all,

Thanks very much for all the replies and help. I think I should revert back to my more primal grunts and "arghs" of dissaproval and probably consider my own energy output levels too. We try to keep her busy, she usually gets a walk in the morning OR a walk in the evening, but ideally we would like to give two a day, just are trying to get our own lives organised a bit better first, so that will probably go a long way to keeping her brain a bit tired. I feed her after a walk or after some training/tricks and for lunch she always gets food in a treat ball (the cool square dice one that takes a bit more to get stuff out) or gets a kong full of chicken or bone also in an attempt to keep her busy. Her toys get rotated and I try to keep things interesting toy-wise. The only downfall again is that she is alone for most of the day now apart from a brief lunch visit, so I think yeah she probably still has too much time to sit and ponder the wonders of what is on the cabinet I am thinking that a certain walk in the morning would help. I just was surprised my angry "Bad dog" yell didn't have an effect, but thinking about it my energy was probably more unhinged and angry than "in control", and with more wearing down on her part she should be less inclined in the first place. lol sorry typing out loud there. Thanks all

[luvsdogs]

To give her something to do when you leave, try scattering all her breakfast kibble over the back yard. She will take longer to eat than just in a bowl looking for every little piece. Then she will probably sleep for a few hours & then perhaps have another tour of the yard for any possible missing bits.

[corvus]

I've stopped using those verbal interruptions. I found I spent a lot of time maintaining them and they were still only mostly effective at best. "Leave it" is way better. Erik responds brilliantly just to his name. I go "Erik, what are you doing?" and he runs over to me to see what I'm going to give him. He rarely remembers what he was doing before I interrupted him.

Even better than interruptors, though, is a good inhibition. I'm deadset against creating inhibitions, but sometimes it's that or mess around with ever more creative ways to keep them off something. IME, if you want to keep them off something, a physical barrier is the best thing. Buuuuut, if it's not good enough and the dogs gets through it, you've got problems. Last time I messed up with barriers it resulted in obsessive behaviour and then I really did have to counter that by creating an inhibition. I hope I never have to do that again, because it is so borrowed time, for all that it worked like a charm. But I didn't put the barrier in until the behaviour was already established. That was dumb of me. I now put barriers up if I notice one of the dogs going back to somewhere I don't want them, and take them away a few weeks later. It usually works on its own, although I've found I have to be ready for their interest to be piqued again if it's something good I'm trying to keep them off.