Maltese/shitzu

[tdierikx]

From my experience, a large number of people who impulse buy that cute (crossbreed/mongrel) pup from a petshop usually haven't really done much research into what they really want from their pet. Add that to possible physical or mental issues due to the "breeding" of said pup, then less than perfect upbringing (like lack of proper socialisation), and you could well have a recipe for disaster.

I've met quite a few really nice little fluffy crosses since becoming involved in rescue... and have met some really not so nice ones at dog parks with their "devoted and loving" owners. There really is no generalisation that can be made about a crossbred dog - it's too much of a lottery based on breeding and environmental issue IMHO.

Personally - I prefer to judge each dog individually on it's merits...

T.

[Moselle]

I have a Maltese x Shih Tzu atm. He was for sale in a pet shop but was older and therefore bigger than the other pups so potential buyers all thought he was going to be too big. Apparently they also didn't like his colour (black & silver, marked like a shnauzer), everyone wants a white puppy .

Anyway, I knew the owner of the shop and she asked if I would have him, so sucker that I am, I did.

He has some issues with strangers, particularly men, and he has the messed up jaw with one tooth hanging out the side of his mouth, but so far no health issues and he is great (if a little bossy) with other dogs.

I would never recommend them though, apart from the fact that they are crosses, you just never know what you're going to get. I've been a groomer and seen some with terrible health and temperament issues.

I bet that not all shih tzu x maltese have issues with strangers or men, it isn't a particular trait of theirs. This has more to do with their upbringing rather than a breed or xbreed characteristic.

I don't doubt that there are purebred dogs out there in the big wide world that may have a dislike for men or strangers alike. This has nothing to do with breed.....lest we forget - let us not blame the breed (or crossbreed) but the deed....or realistically speaking....the upbringing.

A cross bred dog doesn't have traits.

And I disagree that it's only upbringing which determines personality. Yes, a dogs personality may vary through the breed, but can be quite similar throughout certain lines.

I have 5 dogs Moselle, and he is the only one that has that issue. They have all be 'raised' the same way by me so I reject that in this case it has anything to do with how he was raised. I have another that is DA - she is the only dog I have that is, is that my fault too?

I agree that there are alot of spoilt, babied dogs out there that due to lack of training and socialisation have behaviour problems but I can promise you that it is not the case in this house.

I have 2 kids - they have the same parents and are being raised the same way - they are completely different from each other. Why can't that happen with dogs too, don't they have individual personalities?

That is my point exactly....could it not be a coincidence that as it turns out, the crossbred dog happens to be the one that has "issues" ??? As you said, you have 2 children and although both have the same parents, they are very different....that is the point I have been making all along....

Let's not generalise and make a habit of denigrating all xbreeds as being "horrible"....

I would be just as annoyed if people were to denigrate purebred dogs and start labelling them as "horrible".

I agree with tdierikx in that each dog should be judged on its own INDIVIDUAL merits rather than on its parentage.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Moselle

[Greytmate]

Yes I know that pitties were bred to be DA but woe and betide if this fact is made into a discussion as all PB lovers do have a tendency to get on their high horses at the sound of that, countless times I have seen photos of a PB photographed with cats, guinea pigs, smaller dogs and human babies as a way of proving that they need not be animal aggressive. So it isnt a case of PB owners getting upset only when it comes to attacks on humans. And yes, absolutely....irresponsible owners are NOT confined to PB...god knows that there are wayyy too many irresponsible louts of any breed of dog unfortunately.

As for promoting crossbreeds - I have never done that hence I dont know what you are talking about? Having said that there is good and bad anywhere and everywhere is hardly what I call "promotion"...

The ones that do carry on that way are one reason why the breed is still illegal.

If you want to carry on like some of them do, people won't take you seriously either.

[Sandra777]

Yes I know that pitties were bred to be DA but woe and betide if this fact is made into a discussion as all PB lovers do have a tendency to get on their high horses at the sound of that, countless times I have seen photos of a PB photographed with cats, guinea pigs, smaller dogs and human babies as a way of proving that they need not be animal aggressive.

Since when are cats, guinea pigs or human babies in any way affected by DOG AGGRESSION. Do you not understand what DOG aggression means?

Smaller dogs, well meh - if you've ever owned a dog from a breed with a fighting background you would know that the majority treat small dogs with contempt

And don't forget that most dogs can be trained to accept specific other individuals in their life regardless of their genetic background.

[Moselle]

Yes I know that pitties were bred to be DA but woe and betide if this fact is made into a discussion as all PB lovers do have a tendency to get on their high horses at the sound of that, countless times I have seen photos of a PB photographed with cats, guinea pigs, smaller dogs and human babies as a way of proving that they need not be animal aggressive. So it isnt a case of PB owners getting upset only when it comes to attacks on humans. And yes, absolutely....irresponsible owners are NOT confined to PB...god knows that there are wayyy too many irresponsible louts of any breed of dog unfortunately.

As for promoting crossbreeds - I have never done that hence I dont know what you are talking about? Having said that there is good and bad anywhere and everywhere is hardly what I call "promotion"...

The ones that do carry on that way are one reason why the breed is still illegal.

If you want to carry on like some of them do, people won't take you seriously either.

Once again....lets judge an animal INDIVIDUALLY and not make GENERALISED exaggerations, the deed and not the breed. I bet that a PB raised with love and proper training can prove to be a friendly pet, one raised with cats and small dogs need not be a killing machine.

[Moselle]

Yes I know that pitties were bred to be DA but woe and betide if this fact is made into a discussion as all PB lovers do have a tendency to get on their high horses at the sound of that, countless times I have seen photos of a PB photographed with cats, guinea pigs, smaller dogs and human babies as a way of proving that they need not be animal aggressive.

Since when are cats, guinea pigs or human babies in any way affected by DOG AGGRESSION. Do you not understand what DOG aggression means?

Smaller dogs, well meh - if you've ever owned a dog from a breed with a fighting background you would know that the majority treat small dogs with contempt

And don't forget that most dogs can be trained to accept specific other individuals in their life regardless of their genetic background.

Did you NOT understand a word I said? obviously not.

The point I was making here was that even though a PB was created to be a fighting dog, it is possible for a PB to get along with other small dogs without tearing them to shreds if raised with them. Of course, there is also the possibility that even with adequate training and being raised with smaller dogs, it can one day decide, for whatever reason, that it is going to attack but that applies to a multitude of other breeds and is not only something that is confined to pitbulls.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Moselle

[poodlefan]

Moselle:

I agree with tdierikx in that each dog should be judged on its own INDIVIDUAL merits rather than on its parentage.

Well there goes any reason to develop purebreds in the first place. Its the fact that selective breeding increases the likelihood of traits that led to breed development. People got tired of taking pot luck on traits they wanted in dogs and wanted to improve the odds of getting what they wanted. Those who choose purebred pets today are using the same logic. If you don't care what size, coat, temperament and activity level you get in a dog, then you're far less choosy than most.

You've changed your tune on heritabilty too Moselle. Not that long ago you said this:

Temperament is most certainly genetic and any dog showing aggression esp towards people should NOT be bred from and should be desexed.

Based on your logic we can cheerfully breed HA dogs and take "pot luck" on what the puppies grow into. There's no more chance of such pups being HA than any other.

[Greytmate]

Once again....lets judge an animal INDIVIDUALLY and not make GENERALISED exaggerations, the deed and not the breed. I bet that a PB raised with love and proper training can prove to be a friendly pet, one raised with cats and small dogs need not be a killing machine.

Let's NOT.

Let's remember we are on a purebreed dog forum, and if "genetic traits" are only "generalisations", we might as well be on a unicorn forum instead.

I suggest you go and find one, because you will probably fit in there quite well.

[Moselle]

Moselle:

I agree with tdierikx in that each dog should be judged on its own INDIVIDUAL merits rather than on its parentage.

Well there goes any reason to develop purebreds in the first place. Its the fact that selective breeding increases the likelihood of traits that led to breed development. People got tired of taking pot luck on traits they wanted in dogs and wanted to improve the odds of getting what they wanted. Those who choose purebred pets today are using the same logic. If you don't care what size, coat, temperament and activity level you get in a dog, then you're far less choosy than most.

You've changed your tune on heritabilty too Moselle. Not that long ago you said this:

Temperament is most certainly genetic and any dog showing aggression esp towards people should NOT be bred from and should be desexed.

Based on your logic we can cheerfully breed HA dogs and take "pot luck" on what the puppies grow into. There's no more chance of such pups being HA than any other.

AND I still stand by what I said PF. Temperament is genetic....therefore, be it purebred or xbred, dogs with less than desirable temperaments should NOT be bred from. In having said that....temperament can be a little like playing russian roulette, SOMETIMES....you can put two dogs with an absolutely awesome nature and end up with a pup in the litter that leaves a lot to be desired in the temperament stakes. On the whole though....if you do breed for temperament, chances are that you will produce a litter with a good temperament but as I said earlier, even amongst littermates you will have the more boisterous pup, the timid one, etc etc....not all littermates are alike. All in all, the same applies to xbred dogs, if the parentage of a xbred litter has a good temperament....I can safely assume that the xbred pups are likely to have an equally good temperament. Once again, I am all for saying that good AND bad covers all avenues!

[Rebanne]

Oh dear. Buckle up folks. Hi Brad. You might want to equate yourself with the board rules.

[Moselle]

Once again....lets judge an animal INDIVIDUALLY and not make GENERALISED exaggerations, the deed and not the breed. I bet that a PB raised with love and proper training can prove to be a friendly pet, one raised with cats and small dogs need not be a killing machine.

Let's NOT.

Let's remember we are on a purebreed dog forum, and if "genetic traits" are only "generalisations", we might as well be on a unicorn forum instead.

I suggest you go and find one, because you will probably fit in there quite well.

Yes, I do recall that this is a purebred forum and hence promoting crossbreeds is a NO NO (fully understandable)...but let's not be hypocritical by the same token.

Don't twist and turn what I said, GM. I DID not imply that "genetic traits" are "generalisations", lol. Gotta laugh here otherwise I am going to start blowing smoke from every orifice, lol.

I specifically meant that just because one particular dog breed may have a negative trait is NOT to say that all other purebred dogs of the same breed shares that same negative trait. Don't play mind games with me, GM....I am in the profession of having to deal with the many facets of the human mind so therefore keep it real Good shot but not good enough....

[poodlefan]

Moselle:

AND I still stand by what I said PF. Temperament is genetic....therefore, be it purebred or xbred, dogs with less than desirable temperaments should NOT be bred from.

I agree with tdierikx in that each dog should be judged on its own INDIVIDUAL merits rather than on its parentage.

So which is it?

Moselle if temperament IS genetic, why wouldn't we be looking to judge a pup on its parentage? You either avoid the pups from parents with temperament issues or you don't.

I am simply unable to follow your logic.

Edited November 18, 2010 by poodlefan

[Are You Serious Jo]

Moselle, have you had any education on genetics or been a long term breeder of dogs?

[Rebanne]

so who is Brad really and why bring up a year old thread as your 1st post

[RoxyNHemi]

I did correct my original post in post 39.. i perhaps should of amended my original post too so it wouldnt be brought up again... I was quick to comment and actually didnt think about what I was saying.

This is my post #39

Sorry yes, my terminology was incorrect, it is infact a crossbreed. When I said they are horrible, I know alot that are snappy and unsocial.

I grew up with Shih Tzu, and love their temperaments.

[Moselle]

Moselle:

AND I still stand by what I said PF. Temperament is genetic....therefore, be it purebred or xbred, dogs with less than desirable temperaments should NOT be bred from.

I agree with tdierikx in that each dog should be judged on its own INDIVIDUAL merits rather than on its parentage.

So which is it?

Moselle if temperament IS genetic, why wouldn't we be looking to judge a pup on its parentage? You either avoid the pups from parents with temperament issues or you don't.

I am simply unable to follow your logic.

Temperament is genetic....and yes, when looking at temperament you would need to consider the parentage....as I said though, the same rule of thumb applies to whether the pup is a purebred or a crossbred. The comment I made about a dog needing to be judged on its own individual merits is in response to people who make a habit of bagging the temperament of all crossbred dogs simply because they are crossbred, that is an unfair generalisation.

Let me give you an example....for someone that is adamant in breeding xbred dogs, they should, at the very least, consider the temperament of their breeding dogs first and foremost....and once again...THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE AND BY NO MEANS ADVOCATING XBREEDING.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Moselle

[Pippa]

Temperament is genetic...therefore, be it purebred or xbred, dogs with less than desirable temperaments should NOT be bred from..

I know someone who has a bitch who became dog aggressive because she was attacked by another dog when she was younger. She was not DA prior to the attack. Her owner breeds with her and produces beautiful temperaments.

[Greytmate]

Temperament is genetic...therefore, be it purebred or xbred, dogs with less than desirable temperaments should NOT be bred from..

I know someone who has a bitch who became dog aggressive because she was attacked by another dog when she was younger. She was not DA prior to the attack. Her owner breeds with her and produces beautiful temperaments.

No, she became aggressive because she was genetically predisposed to aggression when a certain trigger occurred.

Not all dogs become aggressive after being attacked by another dog. Some will become fearful and some may not be permanently affected at all.

Studies have been done that indicate using an aggressive bitch for breeding may pass on the tendency both genetically and environmentally.

Maybe she has been very lucky with the temperaments she has produced, but there is no way in the world I would touch a pup like that as a pet.

[shells]

maybe not as good as Labrador X Kelpie, which doesn't even merit a DD nickname)

Our local PP calls them Kepliedors

Was the Shitzu/Maltese cross the first "designer dog" - they seem to have been around for ages

There are 2 Purebred Shitzu's a couple of houses down from us. Lovely looking dogs and if I every want a "guard" dog it would be high on my list - they are alert and will bark the street down when you pass their house. I wouldnt say their bark is yappy but definitely loud.

[WreckitWhippet]

I think in my line of work I would see a typical representation of the little mongrel cross bred Maltese Shih Tzu, I see them from pet shops, BYBers and the puppy farms. I can't say I've seen one yet with decent conformation and I'm not talking about blue ribbon winners, just a basic well put together animal, that can function.

I am yet to see one with a front end that is not east/west. I'm not talking about dogs that toe out but the whole front end turns out. They have popped elbows, some have fronts that would be classed as deformed. Very weak from the pastern, going into very flat splayed feet.

Moselle, you might not think this matters much, but when you can't hold a dog by the leg to run clippers down it , due to pain not fright, then there's something very wrong.

I've seen them dragging their toes on the move.

They fail to wear down their nails at all. Most owners would expect some natural wear in any breed, but this doesn't happen with this particular cross.

I'll by pass the wry mouths and deformed jaws, because the dogs can still eat.

Perhaps the things that scares me most is their patellas, you can feel the knee caps on many popping in an out, by simply lifting their back legs. It's frightening and I'd say that 50% of the dogs I see are like this.

Some might see a robust little dog, typically I see a disaster on four legs.