Allergies & Ear Problems

[Erny]

Thanks for the explanation and info, ZA. I will speak to our Naturopath about it as well, before I 'dive in' elsewhere.

BUT .... unless the naturopath has a recommendation to who would be the best in terms of dermatologists is concerned, does anyone have any strong and highly regarded recommendations for any dermatologists I can go to? I'm in Berwick (South Eastern suburbs, Melbourne) but I'm willing to travel if that's what I need to do, to go to someone good.

I want to hear what they have to say first and potentially do the tests. Will give consideration to the rest (ie any prescription to drugs) once I'm better armed with knowledge.

One (that I know) of Mandela's litter brothers suffered from this as well - although his outbreak occurred earlier in his life than did Mandela's. I don't think they had quite the problem I have had regarding the eating and hard to gain weight issue though. They went the antibiotic/cortisone route, but it was re-occurring regardless. I don't know what antibiotics they had him on, nor for how long the course was.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Erny

[zayda_asher]

I want to hear what they have to say first and potentially do the tests. Will give consideration to the rest (ie any prescription to drugs) once I'm better armed with knowledge.

Sorry I can't recommend, as I'm on the other side of Oz... In my experience first consult is a examination and "what's the deal, what plan of action is best" scenario, from that you would decide what testing etc. would be appropriate. So its not a dive straight in... obviously derms deal with a whole bunch besides allergies too, so sometimes they go "oh no, more likely to be this... lets do X first"...

One (that I know) of Mandela's litter brothers suffered from this as well - although his outbreak occurred earlier in his life than did Mandela's. I don't think they had quite the problem I have had regarding the eating and hard to gain weight issue though. They went the antibiotic/cortisone route, but it was re-occurring regardless. I don't know what antibiotics they had him on, nor for how long the course was.

Once you know what is going on and have it in control, you can look at alternatives to drug therapy... it doesn't have to be "cortisone and ABs for life", there is lots of stuff you can do as well... Those drugs do play their role when you have chronic flares, but its definitely good to work out what alternatives you have so they aren't on them long term, esp as a young dog. cortisone and ABs for me are the "big guns" and we save them for those times when they are really needed, not to control "everyday itching" which there is so much else you can do for (often, some dogs are not responsive to other things of course), but they are definitely good to have in the arsenal when you do have chronic flares...

True allergies are heritable (as opposed to the multitude of adverse reactions and intolerances you can have that aren't allergic, but express similar symptoms - these may not be genetic) and you will see them run in families (although not all will have them), so that could be another little hint for you there. They do tend to develop as they age, and the symptom pattern worsens as they develop them, so it sounds like Mandela has followed the more "normal" pattern than his sibling, if it is allergies. Of course you get chronic cases that manifest early as well.

[Erny]

Thank you, ZA. I'm taking all of this into account.

I am concerned about AB's (not to mention Cortisone). A Vet put him on a course of AB's when he first showed signs of colitis. He ended up with very dark nasty diarrhoea and things went downhill from there. But I am willing to discuss it further with an expert in the field of dermotology and see what he/she has to say on things. I would imagine that the best time to see a dermotologist would be now .... whilst Mandela is symptomatic (ie covered in hives).

Edited December 27, 2009 by Erny

[zayda_asher]

Thank you, ZA. I'm taking all of this into account.

I am concerned about AB's (not to mention Cortisone). A Vet put him on a course of AB's when he first showed signs of colitis. He ended up with very dark nasty diarrhoea and things went downhill from there. But I am willing to discuss it further with an expert in the field of dermotology and see what he/she has to say on things. I would imagine that the best time to see a dermotologist would be now .... whilst Mandela is symptomatic (ie covered in hives).

Dogs can be sensitive / allergic to ABs and steroids, just like people can... so sometimes you have to try and see what happens... certainly in this day and age there is a lot of different ABs and stuff, so if one doesn't work, others may be fine. I my self am allergic to Erythromycin and have been advised to avoid the family of ABs to which it belongs, but do fine with others like penicillin... so make sure you cover any adverse reactions and what they were with all vets (GPs and Specialists). Once you have good vets to work with, you can all work together to monitor and work out these things. Sometimes its not an allergy, but merely that they are sensitive and need a slightly different dosage too.

Yeah, its always good to show the Dr the full range of symptoms that they are experiencing.. now would be a good time to go. But take photos etc. and keep a diary of any reactions so that you have that info to take along too... it all helps.

Edit: name of AB I'm allergic to - stuffed up

Edited December 27, 2009 by zayda_asher

[Staff'n'Toller]

Melbourne Vet Specialist Centre in Mt Waverly is generally who we refer to, although there may be a Derm Vet at Hallam AEC???

The MVSC Derm Vets are laboriously thorough and the reason why we send people there is so that we can find out what the problem is and stop the Cortisone. I think Cortisone would be an absolute last resort when nothing else is working b/c once you have the reasons as to why a dog is allergic you can go down the desensitisation route to avoid it.

I'm actually quite surprised your Vet said sorry can't help you any further, because a specialist referral is always in our toolkit.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller

[Erny]

Thanks SnT. I had googled for Dermotologists, and MVSC was one of the main ones I looked at. I am willing to travel if it means I get the best person/s and MVSC is not that far by comparison to other veterinary professionals I have gone to for the same reason.

Mandela's at the 7-day mark with the meds from Mr. Barry Templeton. Last night's dinner time was the most excited I've seen him for his meal than I have in a good month or so. And he ate the full quota, pretty much in one hit. I need to see this occur more frequently for me to be satisfied that things are coming back to normal, though. He is looking a bit more solid with the weight that seems to be coming back on as well. I hesitate to say that though, as these good signs can be short lived. So .

He is still covered in hives and this batch has been more itchy for him than the last. However, the Naturopath did warn me that with the detoxing meds (from Barry Templeton), I might see them worsening, as the body detoxifies. I am hoping that the hives will now begin to diminish and ease and might call Mr. Templeton, if I can contact him at this time of year, and ask him what he thinks I should expect, and how soon. He did say that I should begin to see improvement in 7 days after commencement of the meds, but I'd like to check that he was making reference to everything overall (hives included). This last batch of hives has also been more in numbers, affecting Mandela's forehead, chin, cheeks, upper and under neck, chest, trunk, inside front and back legs, and a few on his rear thighs. But the hives are also smaller than they were the first time they flared on him. The numbers of hives I do think have worsened in the last week, and this could be as the Naturopath suggested they might. Mandela is coping, and I avoid patting/touching him as much I can, so that I am not disturbing them and causing more itching. But I would want to know that I can very soon (ie from today onwards) expect to see a reduction in their numbers.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Erny

[zayda_asher]

How old is Mandela now?

Thought I'd mention too that at least a couple of the things in that drop blend are used for allergies / itching too (like the sulphur for e.g.).

ETA: One of the few homeopathic remedies I've had luck here with is Urticaria Urens, which is the remedy specifically for hives... you may want to try it.

Edited December 28, 2009 by zayda_asher

[Erny]

He's 18 mo now, ZA.

Thanks for the tip regards the Urticaria Urens. I'll keep it in mind and will raise it with the naturopath and potentially with Mr. Templeton if need be. I am doing my best to keep things as simple as I can (although I've partly gone beyond that ) and trying to not be impatient by giving things time to work. If I don't, I won't know what's attributed to what. I've already created a situation where, with improvement, I won't know what to allocate what to, or potentially consider it a combination of administrations.

I'm keeping a close check on the hives, and using Calendula to ease overt discomfort when necessary. I would like to expect that there will be a noticeable reduction in the numbers of hives in the next 1 - 3 days. Beyond that, if they don't look like improving at all, I'll need to step back in by contacting his Naturopath again.

Next Monday sees Mandela completing the 14 days of meds provided by Barry Templeton. I then take another hair sample and send it in to him for further analysis.

[zayda_asher]

Well given his age it certainly sounds like he is following a relatively "normal" pattern of symptom development for allergies - if that's what it is of course.

I totally agree with you re: trying to follow a KISS approach and monitor what you intro, so you know what is actually working - I try to do the same myself... its not always easy though is it?

Another thing to consider: My guys get regular antihistamines because we KNOW they have allergies, and Zayda will get an extra dose when we do have a hive outbreak. It really helps with the itching and discomfort they cause and helps them to settle. Some people find Pred works with the hives, but in our case this was not at all true and the antihistamines are much more effective. Of course in the long run knowing what she is allergic to and keeping her allergy load as low as possible and using immunotherapy is the most effective in keeping her from having hives in the first place. We haven't had a hive outbreak since Nov last year when we retested her, worked out what her new allergies were and started her new immunotherapy etc.

[Erny]

I was going to put these pictures up in Mandela's thread, but because that's been inactive for quite some time I can't post there (without bothering Troy about it). So, trusting the OP doesn't mind, I'm putting them up here (seeing as part of this thread became about Mandela's recent woes).

These pictures don't change his story nor specifically asking for anything - it is just to give those who have expressed interest by helping me out with ideas/suggestions, some idea of what I'm up against.

These were taken a couple of days ago. His coat was at about its worst (not only full of hives, but stark/dry/dull looking as well) at that time. His coat looks better today in that there is some shine and depth back to it. I can't say for sure, but I think some hives have gone and they are a little bit fewer in numbers than there was at the time of the photo's. As you can see, it is near impossible for me to count them. These photo's are only of a certain section (mainly the rib area) of his body - only because it was easier for me to capture them with the camera, without Mandela wanting to eat my camera. Also had to stand in a certain position so that any shadows cast did not fall on that part that I photographed, otherwise the hives don't show up so well via the photos. The hives actually affect his rear forehead, cheeks, rib area, back, loin, shoulders, thighs, chest (including under chest) and legs (front and back). It would probably be easier and quicker to tell you where he is unaffected by them (ie muzzle, front forehead, paws, tail)

Edited January 4, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

[Erny]

This third photo shows from the top the patches of hair where hives were, but have since erupted.

You can see he is still lean/skinny. I've been trying to get 8 x tubs of BARF (rabbit) into him per day. I'm happy if I can do that. I'm ok if I can just get 6 x tubs of BARF (rabbit) into him per day. In the couple of days pre photo's, I was able to only get about 4 or 5 x tubs of the BARF (rabbit) into him per day (just).

BARF (rabbit) was only intended to represent a part of his diet, but he went 'off' the chicken wings etc.

He happily ate a tin of sardines the other day though.

Today was a 'good' day (ie 8 tubs)

Edited January 4, 2010 by Erny

[zayda_asher]

From what I can see, that last photo looks typical of staph pustules that have erupted and burst, with the round patches missing where the legions were. I'd definitely want to look into that and the possibility of allergies...

[Erny]

Thanks, ZA. I do intend to and don't wish you to think that I am or will be ignoring your informative and helpful input. I'm trying to take things one step at a time, otherwise I am confounded with confusion with the advice from too many professionals wanting to do different things.

I may be wrong in delaying going to see someone about the skin testing, but this is what I had in mind :

1. Re-test via hair analysis (which I have to do tomorrow and is part of the 'program' (so to speak) and is included in the fee I've paid.
   
2. Re-schedule a consult with the Naturopath - he's due for that this month.
   

By this time the Naturopath remedies have been given sufficient (in my books) time to have at least produced some good results and I would like to hear what her thoughts/suggestions are at that point.

And I am interested to know what the Mr. Barry Templeton's Hair Analysis results will be, given that we have followed the recommended 2 week treatment.

Unless there is a new flush of hives that re-appear, and going by the last time an outbreak of hives occurred (6 months ago, approximately) the hives should be disappearing now, with coat and appetite both improving. If that happens, I'm content to let things run, hoping that maybe we get through this and do not see a repeat.

HOWEVER, should there be a repeat of the symptoms (hives; reluctance to eat) then I think that will more clearly confirm that there is a pattern and will also indicate that his treatments were not as affective as they could or should be and it is then that I figured I would arrange for skin testing.

If I go to someone else now and they recommend different meds, and if they don't stop this (what seems to be a) bi-annual cycle of symptoms, then I'm going to be wondering if I just am not giving other remedies a chance to put things to rights.

Does what I propose sound like a sensible plan?

Am I underplaying this? (I promise, it is not that I am unconcerned and not worried that I'm doing something wrong by not doing something right, when I should.)

Edited January 4, 2010 by Erny

[sas]

I reckon do the dermatologist and then do the complimentary treatments if you're not getting anywhere.

If I could save someone else the thousands of dollars I've spent from trying all the complimentary miracle cures.....

There are a few that are really good but if you're not on Cortisone I would really reccomend you get in to see a Derm as soon as possible.

[zayda_asher]

I reckon do the dermatologist and then do the complimentary treatments if you're not getting anywhere.

If I could save someone else the thousands of dollars I've spent from trying all the complimentary miracle cures.....

There are a few that are really good but if you're not on Cortisone I would really reccomend you get in to see a Derm as soon as possible.

I agree... I use a lot of complimentaries with my guys, but they wouldn't do diddly to keep their allergies in control if I didn't a) know what they were allergic to and take steps to keep them away from those things (including allergy agents in the comp meds) and b) Also use allopathic treatments as needed.

ETA: I understand the want to give something a fair go and make sure its really not working... that's sensible with anything... but I think it has to be balanced with the fact that there is a very big area of help that hasn't yet been explored for your boy (I'm still amazed the vet wrote you off without suggesting a derm!!) and there is a good possibility of finding out what is going on and dealing with it quicker than a "wait and see" approach... I'm sure he'll thank you for it if there is a quicker resolution to his issues

Edited January 5, 2010 by zayda_asher

[2tollers]

Would getting the derm tests done interfer with any other treatments. If they're what I'm thinking they are, they wouldn't, probably expensive though.

Thanks for the pics Erny. Poor bugger.

[Erny]

2tollers - I think my greater concern would be the 'pressure' that I would feel if the dermatologist prescribed medications where other professionals are suggesting I steer clear. So many Vets are so fast at and frequently prescribing AB's and Cortisone for all manner of things (even when they don't know what it is that they are treating) that I think I've learnt (sometimes the hard way) not to trust that advice. But the part of me that is responsible for carrying guilt would be betwixt and between to ignore that advice. I think those reading will understand where I am coming from (I hope). IE What to do? Who to listen to? It might seem a bit like "stick head in sand" approach, but I think it is more that I need to KISS and not have the clarity of my thinking turn into a head spin.

By no means am I made of money and I've already spent thousands on Mandela and in that I'm not complaining. But it doesn't mean I don't wish to try to be practical by saving some money that I don't need to throw away if I can help it. BUT, the practicalities come into it only after Mandela's immediate health.

Now - if someone were to tell me that by not having the derm tests done today (ie urgently) is possibly going to result in something so far worse that Mandela's life is likely to be affected by it more permanently, then I will go to the Dermatologist post haste.

Assuming that is not the case though, if I hold back a bit (not too much longer, but a bit) to see if this bout of hives are on their way out (as I am only just suspecting that they might be), I'll be clearer about two things in the future :

(a) If the hives return and reflect the same pattern, I will know that the treatments he's on are not doing the job and that the pattern of his condition occurs regardless.

(b) I will know that the retreating of the hives IS due to the natural pattern (and/or due to naturopath treatment) and not because of any treatment the dermatologist prescribes.

© If the hives don't return, then I will know that the tests (and the expense) would have been unnecessary.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Erny

[stormie]

Erny, I totally understand where you are coming from. But what if, for example, the hives were due to an excessive staph infection (dogs can be allergic to staph) and something like a long course of one type of antibiotic were enough to fix the issue and break the cycle, and thus resolve the problem?

I guess the way I see it, is that Dermatologists are specialist in that field and do it because they love it. There's a process of elimination because it works. And I'm not saying that alternative treatments don't work, because I'm sure in many cases they can be of great benefit. But wouldn't it be more helpful to get a proper, correct diagnosis first so that you know where you stand with treatments?

I know many people are very against cortisone, and used incorrectly, it can be a nasty drug. But it can also be very useful to break cycles and in many cases just a simple short course can be enough. I've seen plenty of itchy, hivey dogs come in that are a mess and the owners have been washing in all sorts of concoctions to try to help but the problem kept getting worse. In most cases, it was that the dog had a reaction to a plant and started a cycle of inflammation and infection, which after 1 simple course of cortisone and some AB's, was fixed and never recurred.

Sure there are probably lots of vets out there who throw their hands up when dealing with allergic, itchy dogs, and just put them on cortisone because its cheaper, easier and it works. It may not be ideal, but I can tell you from experience, most owners prefer it to the thought of spending thousands on testings and just want the problem fixed, for the sake of them and the sake of their dogs.

I've even seen people go through the whole Derm process and at the end of it, just go back to pred, because for them, it was the only thing that worked.

This certainly isn't a pro-cortisone post, more just offering a different opinion. I just don't think it should be painted as such a nasty drug, because it can be of great benefit and really improve quality of life.

[sas]

2tollers - I think my greater concern would be the 'pressure' that I would feel if the dermatologist prescribed medications where other professionals are suggesting I steer clear. So many Vets are so fast at and frequently prescribing AB's and Cortisone for all manner of things (even when they don't know what it is that they are treating) that I think I've learnt (sometimes the hard way) not to trust that advice. But the part of me that is responsible for carrying guilt would be betwixt and between to ignore that advice. I think those reading will understand where I am coming from (I hope). IE What to do? Who to listen to? It might seem a bit like "stick head in sand" approach, but I think it is more that I need to KISS and not have the clarity of my thinking turn into a head spin.

A Derm isn't going to force you on Abs ot Cortisone, I really think you're in a very fortunate position (not on Cortisone) so you go down this option and you don't have to do anything you're not comfortable with.

Obviously the natural people want you to stay away from medications. However....Derms are specialists in their field....so says the Degree on the wall if you get my meaning, they're not going to want to band aid the problem, if they think Abs is the way to go then why not?

I'm all for the natural approach, the natural approach got Dante off Cortisone, it was fantastic, unfortunately something pushed him past his threshold and we had to go back to quality of life.

I also understand the desperation you can feel and the trust you can put in people who give you the confidence they can fix your dog....I call them miracle cures and I'm up to Miracle Cure 102 and thousands of dollars later.

I have one freak telling me I'm killing my dog because he's on Cortisone.....it's either that or Heaven....I choose what is best for my dog.....if I could have him off Cortisone and at the Derm I'd be there!

Like Stormie, I'm not doing the whole pro-Cortisone appraoch, I'm just saying be open and whatever works for the dog ya know.

Good Luck.

Edited January 5, 2010 by sas