Excitement When Meeting Other Dogs

[Nekhbet]

I think in general you have to stop making excuses for the dog.

He doesnt follow voice commands - why? Because he doesnt have to. THere are no repercussions for him. You need to sort this out before training him out of his problem.

Do you know why I do not use purely positive based training for problems like this - because I am not training a trick. I am training 1) the dog is to see me as not only a leader but a source of great things (that does not mean a human treat pouch) and 2) there are repercussions to showing unwanted/bad behavior. We are not punishing the dog we are showing we do NOT accept this and this is the fabulous rewarded alternative, hence lowering anxiety and it works quickly. I usually have dogs quiet and walking alongside my own by the end of a session.

I'm not saying reward based does not work - of course it does. But for a dog that already does not listen except if he thinks he's getting food you cannot just roll with what the dog wants. He needs overall lifestyle manners and to learn to listen and respect his owner, food based will not do that. I am not advocating hurting your dog in any way shape or form don't get me wrong. But like a spoiled child he just needs to learn a few manners And if he's part pomeranian he'll be quite a little prince if my mums boy is anything to go by

[chuckandsteve]

He is quite well behaved ie dont steal food, dont get on the bed is good with kids and visitors. Bad with commands and other dogs, he will sit and drop for the hand signal, very consistently down side is he needs to be watching which is why he is bad on walks, it is hard to make eye contact. He will also stay and not eat his dinner till signal is given. My trainer said he is highly reward driven and needs to receive a reward about every 4-5 commands so he does get treats or he loses all interest.

Standard training hasn't worked on him and it is very slow going, we are both learning.

My other dog trained almost immediately, walks off lead, recalls everything. nothing that work on him has worked with the other dog it is a bit of hit and miss training, not your average case. I dont need an exceptional dog a just need a managable one and I feel this is the issue we are up to dealing with

[Nekhbet]

My trainer said he is highly reward driven and needs to receive a reward about every 4-5 commands so he does get treats or he loses all interest.

This is more the dog leading the handler behavior. Yes he is reward driven, fine, but he needs to EARN his rewards! Highly reward driven dogs learn very quickly. If you are needing to keep peaking his interest then like I said, the introduction of something to show, no you have to listen to me, like the little tugs are the way to go. But from the sounds of it are you are a reward based/purely positive only school? Training is about what works for the dog not what you prefer. If he needs something different give it a go. No point struggling and trying to undo more and more bad habits.

And remember there is a difference between knowing tricks and being overall obedient. My rottweiler is capable of only a handfull of commands (he also has physical limitations) but his manners were more important to me first. No pushing, listen when I speak, no stealing, no pulling on the lead, no disobeying me. End of the line. I didnt force him I just structured his life like that and the dog accepts it pat and attention for good dog, no attention or even a correction for bad dog.

The dog is simply teaching you to deal out of the food if you want him to listen - it's a version of human begging pretty common saw a german shepherd like that once but he also added snapping and grabbing the owners wrist when HE decided she wasnt dishing the rewards fast enough.

Limit his chance to make a mistake and put yourself first - I want to go for a walk down the beach. Well you're staying on the lead if you like it or not, and if you carry on like a pork chop you'll get no attention from me at all until you do or even a little squirt with a water pistol for yapping at me. trust me just have faith in yourself and your convictions and he will eventually learn he has to listen to you

[Aidan]

Bad with commands and other dogs, he will sit and drop for the hand signal, very consistently down side is he needs to be watching which is why he is bad on walks, it is hard to make eye contact.

I agree with Nekhbet on the making excuses for him thing (not on the "tricks" comment, I take the Skinnerian view of conditioning). He doesn't listen to verbal commands because he needs to learn to listen to them. Some dogs, most dogs in fact, don't really pay much attention to verbal cues and prefer visual cues. But does your dog bark at sounds he hears in the night? Sounds you don't even hear? If so, his hearing is fine and he knows how to tune in (or out) sounds.

If you believe that he has some special need that you need to work around, that is what you will do. So problems like "not coming when called" and "pulling on the leash" are avoided because you believe he has special quirks.

Of course, you cannot be blamed for taking this view because you haven't had to deal with these problems before and your attempts up until now have been unsuccessful. But you do have to change it if you want to fix these problems!

Do you know how to transition from one cue to another? You use the new cue, then immediately use the existing cue. So you would say "Sit", then give the hand signal for "sit" immediately after. Repeat until the verbal cue "sit" begins to PREDICT the hand signal, he anticipates it. At this point you wait for him to sit, if he doesn't sit, give it again and then use the hand-signal. See if you can teach him just one thing using a verbal cue, something he knows well and does reliably when you use a hand signal.

Then get cracking on the other things, especially that recall!

[chuckandsteve]

To give him the reward I was told to give him a command i know he can do when he does it treat. So I can work on a new trick but then go back to something old and known so he can receive a reward. If that makes sense its not for nothing

Ignoring him does nothing he doesn't really care if i pay attention to him he has better things to do He stays on lead all of the time except for about 1 walk on the beach every few months when we get time to take him down there. How would you correct him? Not keen on hitting and I dont really like water pistol, took me a long time to get him to swim

[chuckandsteve]

We worked on the pulling on the lead for 8 months. Problem was we wasn't getting walked and the problems got worse, he would just runs circles around me on the lead having a great time, i couldn't change direction or step backwards because he never gave me the chance.

He doesn't bark much only at dogs passing the house. I am sure he can hear have spent a long time checking and he chases flys which he hears while sleeping on the couch I believe. I have tired teaching the word and still use it when giving the hand signal, hand signal works on its own word doesn't.

for about a year I treated him just like the other dog it got us nowhere, treating him different is the only thing that has worked

[Aidan]

We worked on the pulling on the lead for 8 months. Problem was we wasn't getting walked and the problems got worse, he would just runs circles around me on the lead having a great time, i couldn't change direction or step backwards because he never gave me the chance.

If he's running circles then at some point he's going to be on a loose leash. That's when you click and give the treat close to you, then you click again before he can make his way to the end of the leash. Another approach is to set up a clear target, a bowl of food or someone with a toy, as examples. Do these in low distraction environments at first.

A little trick I use is to use different walking gear to mean different things. E.g the front attaching harness could be his "do whatever you damn well please" cue, and a martingale collar could be his "we're walking strictly on a loose leash" cue.

I have tired teaching the word and still use it when giving the hand signal, hand signal works on its own word doesn't.

It's "verbal cue" then "hand signal", over and over until he looks like he's anticipating the hand signal when you give the verbal cue. Then you pause and see what happens.

There is the possibility that you have INADVERTENTLY taught him to ignore verbal cues. It happens, no-one means it to happen. If this has happened you could do something like this - wait until he is resting quietly. You go about your business, then suddenly say his name clearly - when he looks up you click and treat. Do this whenever you get the opportunity (within reason!) Then try it in other situations where he is not paying attention to you, but not too engrossed in what he is doing.

for about a year I treated him just like the other dog it got us nowhere, treating him different is the only thing that has worked

You just need to find your approach, stop believing that he is drastically different. They are all different, but if he's not deaf he can listen to commands and if he can walk he can walk on a loose leash

[chuckandsteve]

Not gonna argue about the loose leash thing heard it all before, paid good money to be shown and still have not seen anyone walk he loose leash for more than the first minute.

But thanks for the advice on the excitement

Edited November 24, 2009 by chuckandsteve

[Nekhbet]

(not on the "tricks" comment, I take the Skinnerian view of conditioning)

A dog can learn tricks and still be in general disobedient. Sitting for you food, high fiving, sitting on command etc is not an obedient dog. Unfortunately the dog learns to behave for that particular situation and as soon as its done BANG back to normal. How many times have I heard 'he's good at dog school'. I train for the lifestyle, that you have a happy, healthy pet that is obedience, managable and you have a close trusting relationship. I find a constant barrage of food for most mature dogs not the way to go to get that, especially headstrong ones.

We worked on the pulling on the lead for 8 months. Problem was we wasn't getting walked and the problems got worse, he would just runs circles around me on the lead having a great time, i couldn't change direction or step backwards because he never gave me the chance.

He can't be that difficult. He's learned to ignore you that's all.

Hence why I put up popping on the leash. If he's running around, shorten the leash and wait until he settles, or keep it a little shorter and restrict his 'spaz zone'

if he gets under your feet just shuffle him over with your food. NEVER smack your dog please. I never advocate that at all. But if he gets under you, push him aside gently. If he gets ahead of you turn around quickly and call him using a loud clear happy voice he cannot ignore.

When I say ignore the bad, simply do not feed the behavior (sorry does sound a bit like stand there and do nothing!). So say he decides to go bananas. OK so turn around, pop pop pop pop pop and just keep walking. Don't say anything just keep walking and popping until he calms down THEN when he's paying attention 'GOOD DOG COME ON etc etc'. This is rewarding the good with attention from you.

If he cannot walk nicely and is all over the place shorten the leash a little. When he settles give him a little more and praise for being a good dog. Super good walk BANG I want food in his mouth as soon as he's doing really really well. Food too often and for haphazard performance creates just that. It doesnt have to be competition obedience but every dog is capable of walking next to you on a loose leash.

what you choose to do is up to you, Aiden and I have differing methods obviously. Like I said though I think you would benefit from a one on one session with a trainer and choose what works for the dog

Not gonna argue about the loose leash thing heard it all before, paid good money to be shown and still have not seen anyone walk he loose leash for more than the first minute.

I'm willing to make a bet on that one

Edited November 24, 2009 by Nekhbet

[poodlefan]

Not gonna argue about the loose leash thing heard it all before, paid good money to be shown and still have not seen anyone walk he loose leash for more than the first minute.

But thanks for the advice on the excitement

C&S, I think you'd benefit from considering the perspective that just because a dog isn't easily trained doesn't mean it's not trainable. Your first dog was a piece of cake - you were lucky.

Now you've got a tougher cookie - but he's still a dog. He still will conform to the principles of operant conditioning. The fact that he's not easy to train doesn't mean that patience and persistence wouldn't work. What you've yet to find is the key to engaging and holding focus.. that could take time.

If he's reward focussed then putting him on a variable reward schedule would be better than having the rewards come at completely predictable periods (eg. every 4-5 cues) that's bread and butter stuff for a trainer. Generally a food motivated dog can be trained quite easily provided the timing and the consistency is kept up.

I have seen dogs with years of pulling on lead walking quietly and calmly within 15 minutes of meeting the right trainer. The fact that you and your current trainer haven't met with success doesn't mean it can't be done. Perhaps you just need a better trainer?

The first thing you have to change to improve things is to stop blaming the dog and rethink what you're doing with him. That's what I'd recommend to anyone in your situation. You won't change the dog.. all you can try is different methods to illicit the behaviour you want.

I would take that bet also Nekbet..

Edited November 24, 2009 by poodlefan

[chuckandsteve]

The fact that you all say it is so easy is what gets me "15minutes" really? maybe for the first 15 till he gets bored of you.

He has been to trainers all who told me the same thing, all that failed, the $30 harness has him walking nicely so I dont understand the problem with it, my one on one trainer told me all the things you have said and then recommended the harness and it works. She told us we were doing everything perfectly timing, treating voice pitch. I even feed wet meat from my hand (I'm vegetarian so this is not cool) because she said he was ignoring the treat because it wasn't good enough.

None of the methods you have suggested are any different to the ones that have been tried.

The longer you work on them the worse he gets because he gets no exercise. He does not play with toys and I will not let him of lead to run as it is too dangerous he has no awareness of cars

[poodlefan]

No one said this would be easy. People are trying to tell you what is possible.

Edited November 24, 2009 by poodlefan

[Nekhbet]

The fact that you all say it is so easy is what gets me "15minutes" really? maybe for the first 15 till he gets bored of you.

I think when you stop making excuses for your dog the behavior will change. If you wont change, the dog will not. You shoot everything down and I dont understand then - we are offering you solutions. Aiden a PP one and me one that reduces you needing treats.

So if the harness works what advice are you looking for? We cannot offer complete tailored solutions for a dog we cannot see and handle ourselves.

The longer you work on them the worse he gets because he gets no exercise

how is he getting no exercise? I told you to actively take the dog for a walk and as well as his body his mind will be exercised quite well. The method I showed you actively takes the dog out and the more the better.

[Aidan]

(not on the "tricks" comment, I take the Skinnerian view of conditioning)

A dog can learn tricks and still be in general disobedient. Sitting for you food, high fiving, sitting on command etc is not an obedient dog. Unfortunately the dog learns to behave for that particular situation and as soon as its done BANG back to normal.

Sure, we both agree on that. The difference is that I see no difference between conditioning a behaviour using food or with anything else (leash pops etc) when it comes to actually getting reliable behaviours that aren't just tricks. Just because you don't use punishing consequences like leash pops (and I do sometimes, for the record) doesn't mean you can't condition a dog to become more obedient overall or in the general sense. That "more obedient in the general sense" is just a collection of behaviours, which includes things like listening to you, respect for space and proximity, knowing what you expect, knowing that you have boundaries etc.

The person who is clear in their own mind about these things, and how to achieve them, will achieve them no matter what method they use so long as they don't try to defy (knowingly or otherwise) the laws of operant conditioning.

The biggest problem with using food is that it becomes an antecedent - part of the collection of what behaviourists call "discriminating stimuli" so when it's not there - "BANG back to normal" as you put it. Intelligent use of food (and other reinforcers) avoids this. It certainly IS an issue for a lot of people, but it needn't be. The same could be said for leash pops, although that antecedent is always going to be there anyway

Not gonna argue about the loose leash thing heard it all before, paid good money to be shown and still have not seen anyone walk he loose leash for more than the first minute.

I'm willing to make a bet on that one

Same here. Not the first time I've heard it either! What do you think the lady in the video said to me when we started? That dog isn't perfect (and if you pay attention, neither is my timing) but this was her third class. The method isn't important, and it's rare that I would change what I do to suit the dog, the execution is what matters.

[Aidan]

He has been to trainers all who told me the same thing, all that failed, the $30 harness has him walking nicely so I dont understand the problem with it

This is the problem with it:

"My dog jack/pom gets really excited when approaching other dogs, he barks, pulls on his lead and now will even nip at the other dogs feet"

Pulling on the lead is one of the behaviours that you wish to correct, and I'm telling you it will be hard to correct ANY of those behaviours if he is still pulling on the leash. Just being completely honest with you, perhaps not as diplomatic as I could be but that's really hard on a text-based forum

That's why I want you to start at the point where he is not pulling on the leash, then close the distance over how ever many sessions it takes for him to do it without falling back into bad habits. Or you can use leash pops exactly in the manner that Nekhbet describes, it doesn't really matter but you have to be consistent either way.

[Nekhbet]

I only meant I dont push the use of food first because there is more of a chance for some owners to become reliant on it and forget to change themselves. Yes dogs still need rewards I rather the owner learn to be a source of reward themselves through their behavior and body language with the dog and save the food as the icing on the cake. I want the owner to learn as well as the dog.

some dogs I dont use food at all, stress is too high etc so I use equipment and verbal/physical rewards. You would be surprised how big an impact they have on the dog compared to food anyway.

[Aidan]

The fact that you all say it is so easy is what gets me "15minutes" really? maybe for the first 15 till he gets bored of you.

Here's an approach you can try:

- put a well-fitted martingale or whippet collar on him (not a sloppy fit)

- put his harness on him

- clip the leash to the harness and walk for 10 minutes, find somewhere quiet and without too many distractions

- clip the leash to the collar and work on loose leash walking for 2-5 minutes

- go back to the harness and walk how you normally walk

- repeat daily, building up the amount of time you do loose leash walking on the collar

Make a rule for the rest of his life - if the leash is clipped to the collar, you are going to do consistent loose leash walking training. At all other times, use the harness instead.

[Nekhbet]

THe dog needs manners and to settle anxiety. Not create a jeckyl and hyde situation. My Malinois will pull like a freight train on some equipment and behave lovely on the other. Can be a PITA sometimes I dont see how this will fix his anxiety around other dogs

[Quickasyoucan]

The fact that you all say it is so easy is what gets me "15minutes" really? maybe for the first 15 till he gets bored of you.

Here's an approach you can try:

- put a well-fitted martingale or whippet collar on him (not a sloppy fit)

- put his harness on him

- clip the leash to the harness and walk for 10 minutes, find somewhere quiet and without too many distractions

- clip the leash to the collar and work on loose leash walking for 2-5 minutes

- go back to the harness and walk how you normally walk

- repeat daily, building up the amount of time you do loose leash walking on the collar

Make a rule for the rest of his life - if the leash is clipped to the collar, you are going to do consistent loose leash walking training. At all other times, use the harness instead.

Could the OP not build up to walking on the martingale with a line or second leash fixed to the harness for backup same way as you might use a martingale for back up on a prong (in case it pops open).

It would seem easier to give corrections on a martingale than a harness, I would think the harness just gives more consistent traction for the dog to pull. Certainly that way with my dog when he wore a harness.

I've seen too many consistent pullers walking on a loose lead with the right person not to believe this dog could not walk on a loose leash in the right situation. If you have seen it done it really does take less than 15 mins.

My own dog pulled consistently and hard for about 4 years. Went to the right trainer, he now walks consistently on a loose leash (on a martingale) not comp heeling but that's not what I was trying to achieve. if the lead goes tight now he selfcorrects.

Went to obedience classes at the start of those 4 years, the "trainer" said, he's a staffy he will always pull - uh no

[Aidan]

I only meant I dont push the use of food first because there is more of a chance for some owners to become reliant on it and forget to change themselves.

Yeah, you tend to get two types who have problems - those who forget to keep raising the criteria or move to a different schedule, and those who want to stop using it too soon to get what they want out of it (or who don't use a high enough rate of reinforcement early on). I just focus on teaching both types how and when to go to a different schedule or to pay attention to criteria. Like I've said a couple of times already, I don't think method matters nearly so much as execution so I just work on getting the best execution I can out of the method that I personally prefer to teach.