Excitement When Meeting Other Dogs

[chuckandsteve]

Hi,

My dog jack/pom gets really excited when approaching other dogs, he barks, pulls on his lead and now will even nip at the other dogs feet. I know he shouldn't be allowed this close but people just walk straight up to him with their dogs as I stand to the side with him to let him through because he is small i guess. Anyway I have been told to reward him for staying calm as we approach other dogs, problem is he never is as soon as he spots them (and i mean could be more than 500m) his body language changes he is bolt upright and watching them.

If this info helps:

Once he has meet a dog for a minute or so he is sick of them and wants to leave while our other wants to play.

We have let him off at the beach and he spotted a dog about a km away and took off before he could be put back on lead he ran to the dog barked about 4 times then turned and ran back.

Any suggestions on how i address this behaviour?

[Aidan]

One of the ways I do it, you're going to need friends with dogs to help you. Not a group all at once, but you want to be able to repeat this with more than one dog over a period of time.

You park at one end of a paddock, have your friend at the other end. Find the "threshold", the point where your dog begins to become excited. Stay below that point (it will change as you progress). Explain all this to your helper, if it is a long distance you will need hand signals.

Next you need to teach your dog what you want him to do when he sees another dog, in other words, an appropriate way to approach them while on-leash. Have a clicker and lots of easily swallowed treats ready (I use sausage packed food, e.g VIP Chicken cut into tiny cubes).

We don't start off by insisting on the finished product, we start off with an approximation. If your dog isn't barking, or isn't straining on the leash, we click. That should be easy to arrange, just make sure you are far enough from the other dog.

If he is "bolt upright and watching them" - that is fine. You can click that. He isn't barking and he isn't spinning on the leash. The point is that we are shaping the behaviours that we want, so we can begin with some excitement so long as, on average over a period of time, we are reinforcing responses that are closer and closer to what we want the finished picture to look like. As your dog starts to offer the really nice responses more often, we can stop reinforcing the less desirable responses. <- read that bit again because it is important

We're playing with probabilities here. We're not insisting upon anything, we're just stacking the deck in our favour. Very much in our favour. We set up the environment (distance between dogs) so that we're more likely to get the responses we want. Then we reinforce those responses so that they become MORE PROBABLE even when we change the environment a little (move the dogs a little closer).

I'm making a point about talking about probabilities here because there is a tendency for people to have unrealistic expectations, or to become disappointed (devastated even!) when they make a little mistake. This is not necessary. Over time the probabilities of the responses that you want become very high if you set up the environment (distance between dogs, reinforce the best responses etc) to your advantage - CONSISTENTLY.

So far I've talked about approximations towards a finished product but I haven't given you any clue what that finished product might be! I would suggest walking on a loose leash, and able to give you more attention than the other dog (giving other dogs attention is fine, so long as that doesn't include barking, lunging etc). Definitely reinforce those things. Actual greetings tend to follow from there without too much help, but feel free to write back when you get to that point (might take one session, might take twenty to get there).

If you want a dog to walk on a loose leash you need to never, ever let that dog succeed in getting anywhere on a tight leash. Stop, give him a second to make the decision to stop pulling, then back up a step or two. The instant that he turns to you, click then treat. Click again before he makes his way to the end of the leash, and again, and again. You can start fading out the clicks and treats when he really understands what you are clicking for. You can do this with or without your helper, in fact I would start immediately, which again, stacks the deck in your favour. (For a video demonstration, see http://www.positivepetzine.com/loose_leash_youtube )

I hope that makes sense!

Edited November 23, 2009 by Aidan

[chuckandsteve]

Thanks all makes sense, he is not a loose lead walking dog though he has a front attach harness that turns him sideways when he pulls, after a year of loose lead training that is the best success we have had.

What do you do on a general walk though? it is impossible to not pass other dogs and also he becomes worse behaved as his walks decrease.

[Nekhbet]

Aiden the OPs dog has to understand what a clicker is first. And trying to balance a clicker, food and straining dog can be difficult if your timing is not already perfect.

chucknsteve I would just put him on a flat collar and retrain him how to walk and respect the leash. Start in your front yard and have reward he loves the most - either a toy or tiny bits of food. Make sure he's hungry if you're using food.

Start walking, if the dog bolts ahead do a 180 degree turn and tiny little sharp tugs on the lead. Call the dog 'COME ON LETS GO, GOOD DOG' happily. when he follows 'GOOD BOY!!!' really happily and only praise when he's paying attention to you and happy/calm. Give him a treat when he's doing really well as a 'jackpot' of sorts. Make sure you are also using a longer lead, let the dog have some freedom as we are training the dog to CHOOSE you over the rest of the world. The trick is to IGNORE bad behavior and REWARD good. No verbal chastising!

Now when he sees another dog as soon as he sees another dog watch your own body language. Don't stop and have the 'oh god here we go again' body language going If you can, turn and walk somewhere else, dont break stride and I want you to keep applying little tugs until he follows. They are not punishments we are interrupting his thought pattern and leading him to the alternative. He'll carry on etc just ignore it, keep the little tugs and just keep walking, don't stop. When he shows LESS attention to the other dog and MORE attention to you 'GOOD BOY COME ON! YAAAAY LETS GO' flood his brain with happy things, when he goes a super job BAM bit of food/toy. Just keep him moving, keep that brain moving and you too no stopping and you will see he will just follow. Don't drag the dog, simply sharp little tug tug tug tug until he turns from the other dog or stops lagging. A dog cannot pull against tugs, they can pull against dragging motions.

Conversely if you have a lot of trouble give me a bell we can have this sorted in one session.

[Aidan]

Thanks all makes sense, he is not a loose lead walking dog though he has a front attach harness that turns him sideways when he pulls, after a year of loose lead training that is the best success we have had.

What do you do on a general walk though? it is impossible to not pass other dogs and also he becomes worse behaved as his walks decrease.

If he is allowed to pull into the harness I'm afraid you've got an uphill battle. I don't believe that there are dogs out there who can't learn to walk on a loose leash, but I do believe that some people find it difficult to teach and some time with someone who is competent in teaching this skill would benefit you.

If you can set up, say 4 or 5 sessions with helpers with dogs over a two week period then do that. Have no other walks during that time, or if you do, go late in the evening. I can't say for sure how much progress you will make on your own, there is definitely a benefit in having someone who has done it before to show you what to do but you will make progress. Find other ways to exercise your dog during this time, get creative. Don't underestimate how much these sessions will tire your dog out.

It is impossible not to pass other dogs but once you realise that you are going to HAVE to control the environment for a while if you want a resolution to this problem you will find places to walk that make it easier. In fact, if you can find a place where there are definitely other dogs around, but you can stay far enough away to set your dog up to succeed then that will benefit you. Obedience clubs are usually a good place to do this, fenced off-leash dog parks, that sort of thing. What do you think your threshold would be currently? (Not the point where he notices other dogs, the point where he vocalises?)

You only have to do this until the probability of him giving you calm behaviours around other dogs and being able to give you attention is high. Once he has learned to give you attention around other dogs (not when you say his name, just as something he does) more than half the battle is won.

[Aidan]

Aiden the OPs dog has to understand what a clicker is first. And trying to balance a clicker, food and straining dog can be difficult if your timing is not already perfect.

It is extremely rare that I ever charge up the clicker, but if it is necessary it only takes a moment anyway. The reason for the controlled set-ups is that you set the distance so that you're not balancing a clicker and food with a "straining" dog. I rarely encounter clients who cannot manage it, they usually have more trouble with the leash handling.

Perfect timing isn't necessary. It gets the job done faster, but the job still gets done. People worry too much about stuff that doesn't matter and forget the stuff that does. When you've clicked 500 times the 10,20, 30 really bad ones don't matter, nor do the 10,20,30 really good ones. It is the 300-400 acceptable ones that the dog learns from.

[poodlefan]

Have you ever attended any kind of formal training C&S - some more skills in your tool box would be of benefit here I think. Training a recall would be a start - if he pisses off on you, he shouldn't be offlead in any public place.

Under no circumstances should you allow your boy to get within touching range of another dog if he's a nipper. Don't allow people to get that close. Don't stop when you're out walking.. cross the road if you have to but keep your distance. Until your dog is calmer, forcing him to stay put while a dog approaches may feed his anxiety/excitement (as I can't see him I can't read his reactions).

You're going to have very limited control of him on a harness. A very small martingale collar would be a better bet IMO.. control the head and you control the dog.

Edited November 23, 2009 by poodlefan

[Nekhbet]

Perfect timing isn't necessary. It gets the job done faster, but the job still gets done. People worry too much about stuff that doesn't matter and forget the stuff that does. When you've clicked 500 times the 10,20, 30 really bad ones don't matter, nor do the 10,20,30 really good ones. It is the 300-400 acceptable ones that the dog learns from.

This is where i disagree, timing does make a difference. How can a dog learn when you are randomly rewarding different behaviors and at different times? Dogs learn faster when things are black and white not all mixed up.

And why not charge the clicker first so the dog knows what the sound means - instant head turn and WOW I KNOW WHAT I"M GETTING FOR THAT!

and if something is taking that many repetitions to make a difference I'd be changing methods. Yes there will also be some losses but should you not work to limit them to a handful with a method that is easy for dog and owner to do? To just keep clicking until the dog 'gets it' IMO is not doing anyone favours.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Nekhbet

[Cosmolo]

Chuckandsteve- what kind of training have you done before? I think a few one on one sessions would be the best start for you so that you can be shown exactly how to start working on the issue in a controlled manner. The technique should be something that you can also use in practical situations but in the meantime as others have said, definitely keep moving rather than stopping. When the dog reacts at such a long distance its important that someone can see whats happening to ensure the technique is appropriate.

I would hate for your little one to get into a fight while out on a walk because he was too close to another dog.

[Aidan]

This is where i disagree, timing does make a difference. How can a dog learn when you are randomly rewarding different behaviors and at different times?

It's not random though, that is the point. It just isn't "perfect". You tell me how many people have perfect leash handling? Practical experience tells me that if you tell someone what to click for they get it right enough to reinforce those responses - and that is all that matters, are we seeing more of those responses? People worry about the method too much and take their eye off the behaviour.

If it really worries you, do it without the clicker. The problem with that is that there are MANY conditioned reinforcers at play here, the reason I put a clicker in someone's hand is because then they are consciously aware of it and it becomes salient to the dog so they begin to tune out those other conditioned reinforcers.

And why not charge the clicker first so the dog knows what the sound means - instant head turn and WOW I KNOW WHAT I"M GETTING FOR THAT!

You can if you like. Again, practical experience tells me that you usually get that response regardless and that it isn't important so long as the response that you are MARKING is increasing.

and if something is taking that many repetitions to make a difference I'd be changing methods.

It doesn't take 500 clicks to make a difference. There is a continuum from "100% unwanted behaviour under any circumstances" to "100% the behaviour we would prefer under any circumstance". Getting from one extreme to another takes a lot of repetitions, whether they be negative reinforcement through tiny collar pops or positive reinforcement through clicks and treats.

For the record, I liked the method you described.

[Kavik]

For the record I like to use the method Aidan describes

[Jetty]

I am watching this thread with interest. Jet does this but I don't think It is excitment I think it is a fear thing.

[chuckandsteve]

He has had formal training, group then one on one, group did more damage than good.

A collar is too dangerous if he gets out of it with his pulling he is magic he gets out of everything he can also remove his harness but is slower so i can correct it. He is only off lead at the beach no where else as he does not recall and likes to do a big run before he will walk beside us. It is a very quite beach 2 hrs from Melbourne so rarely are there other dogs.

My trainer told me it was excitement not agression, and got me the harness he now uses, he doesn't pull on it it is just a tight lead when he walks plus it helps with him paying attention which is another issue he has. He is not great at commands will only follow hand signals but is better with conditioning ie he sits at corners to cross the road.

I like the approach Aiden has given, apart from lack of walks as this has hindered us in the past, I dont know how effective a clicker would be as he doesn't follow voice commands, I think he only follows hand signals because that is where food comes from although he gets feed from the hand that is not giving the signal.

Edited November 24, 2009 by chuckandsteve

[poodlefan]

He will not be able to pull out of a collar that tightens under pressure. That's why I suggested a martingale.

[chuckandsteve]

He can get it off, he uses he paw

[Aidan]

He can get it off, he uses he paw

Are you sure he isn't a cat?

[poodlefan]

He can get it off, he uses he paw

If he can, its not fitted correctly. A correctly fitted on won't fit over his head.

[Aidan]

, I dont know how effective a clicker would be as he doesn't follow voice commands

So long as he isn't deaf he should be fine. The important thing to look for is - are you getting more of what you clicked?

[chuckandsteve]

I have been asked that many times, he can climb fences and walk allong the top rail of a fence as well Got more than a bargained for when i picked him up. My backyard is now a fort

[chuckandsteve]

Ok will get myself a clicker. Can't gureentee the collar was fitted right i guess, im not an expert. But if I can't fit it right I dont think its a good option for me. The harness works well, I have time to grab him before it is all the way off.