pixie_meg Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Oberon went to the vet this arvo for his c5 vax and also to get his lump on his elbow looked at. The vet was very concerned about the lump and after hyperextending both elbows believes he has elbow displaysia. He thinks there may be hip issues too. So we're going to get his elbow xrayed asap. I'm shocked at that but whats worse is how he is tonight. We got his C5 done at about 4.30pm. brought him home. we're under instructions not to let him run too much because of the elbows. So at about 7pm I notice he is sensitive to the touch. I can normally pick him up no problem, but he yelped. It has since escalated to where he'll just be laying and he'll wimper and yelp. If i touch him he wimpers. Its his normal bedtime so its hard to tell whether he is just tired or whether he is more tired than usual. His paw pads and skin are also redder than usual. So is it the vaccination? If it helps it was Canigen KC and DHA2P. I was wondering whether it may be a snake bite since he was under the house this afternoon. but i haven't seen snakes. Please any advice. Would you just see how he fairs overnight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serket Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Personally I'd be too worried to sleep in case he deteriorated further - can you call a vet and get some advice before taking him in maybe? It doesn't sound good, and clearly it's not normal behaviour for him - whether its a snakebite or a vaccine reaction, both could be fatal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_meg Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 see right now he is sleeping normally. just cant find any info on vaccine reactions. doesn't seem to fit with snake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) So sorry to hear this. I can't help much with advice on the possible vaccination reaction. Dogs can have them but I don't know much about them, just wanted to say I'm sorry he's having problems. Has he a temperature? If not and he's drinking OK and no vomiting, loose motions or hunching up, and he has good colour in his gums, I'd probably watch him overnight, see how he is in the morning and take him back to a vet then, if he were mine. But I can't see him so please go with your gut instinct. Re the vet's concerns, hip issues would be very rare in Borzoi I think. I don't know about elbow dysplasia but I've not heard of it in them. Is your vet experienced with sighthounds? If not I'd find one who is for a second opinion before commencing treatment. And I'd suggest you talk to his breeder asap. Good luck. Edited: I forgot about your snake suspicion. If you think it is that he should be at a vet as fast as you can get him there. But I think I'd expect him to be worse, not sleeping normally, maybe drooling, vomiting or with nervous system symptoms. The only envenomated dog I have seen went downhill very quickly. But it depends on the type of snake and degree of envenomation. Edited November 23, 2009 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PL_ Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Pixie meg, if you're googling - the term is vaccinosis An old Dol thread even comes up. here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Could you ring a 24hr Vet and talk to them. At least then if you do decide to go tonight they will be prepared. I would also look at geting the x-rays done by someone experienced and get them read professionally. It is commonly misdiagnosed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_meg Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 So sorry to hear this. I can't help much with advice on the possible vaccination reaction. Dogs can have them but I don't know much about them, just wanted to say I'm sorry he's having problems. Has he a temperature? If not and he's drinking OK and no vomiting, loose motions or hunching up, and he has good colour in his gums, I'd probably watch him overnight, see how he is in the morning and take him back to a vet then, if he were mine. But I can't see him so please go with your gut instinct. maybe a little warm, drinking and eating fine, no vomitting etc, good gum colour. we'll be waiting it out i think, he seems a bit better. Re the vet's concerns, hip issues would be very rare in Borzoi I think. I don't know about elbow dysplasia but I've not heard of it in them. Is your vet experienced with sighthounds? If not I'd find one who is for a second opinion before commencing treatment. And I'd suggest you talk to his breeder asap. i was shocked that he thought it was dysplasia given he's a borzoi. He was quite convinced. not sure if he's experienced with sighthounds. the vet nurse didn't know how to spell borzoi and the vet thought Oberon was too skinny yet a russian woman in town thought he was a fat borzoi puppy. I think i'll talk to the breeder tomorrow. Just way too emotional right now. Good luck. thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Relieved he's a bit better. Give him a big kiss on that gorgeous nose for me. I'm not suprised you a feeling emotional, it's a terrible shock to get a diagnosis like that. Take a deep breath and work through it one step at a time. I would suggest a second opinion though. Borzoi aren't run of the mill pups. A vet used at least to greyhounds is often a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) I hope he is feeling better. redness even generalised can be a sign of a vaccine reaction. He may have even been bitten by a spider if under the house. With the elbows and hips, Take a deep breath. I would ring your breeder and maybe get their help to put you in the direction of a vet used to dealing with large sighthounds. I believe you made another post about a large fluid filled lump on his elbow. Is he lame? reluctant to exercise? Elbow dysplasia is very painful and the "lump" is hard with some swelling, generally, not fluid filled and non-painful. I know you will be very upset but please address it one step at a time and try not o get too carried away with the what if just yet. Thinking of you all ETA just did some googling and not one site mentioned ED as a potential problem. HD was mentioned but not that it was a major problem, just a problem as it can be in any large fast growing dog. Edited November 23, 2009 by Rommi n Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I would be very VERY surprised to hear of a borzoi with elbow or hip displasia although I suppose it's not impossible. I wonder if it's more likely something to do with growth spurts. I hope your little man is feeling better this morning, it can be very lonely sitting up in the middle of the night worrying about your puppy. I think I'd be more likely to try to find someone more familiar with sighthounds, or at the very least, greyhounds, and yes keep in touch with the breeder too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_meg Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 Thank you for all your replies. He seems a lot better this morning. his lump on his elbow also seems to be a lot better. reduced in size and softer to touch. I wonder if it's more likely something to do with growth spurts. He has had some steep growth in the last couple of weeks. he'll get more solid for a couple of days and then shoot up. the vet thought this was too quick a growing pattern. He mentioned over nutrition but he is on eagle pack holistic large puppy. and he doesn't eat a lot of it maybe 2/3 the recommendation on the feeding chart. I mean how ribby is too ribby in a bozoi pup? He also mentioned over exercising as the cause, but i cant see that we're doing that. We've only just started doing leash walking and only for a couple of hundred metres. We have a couple of acres so he does run, sometimes with us sprinting for 5 minutes or so but only every couple of days. Is that too much. he is mostly inside, thats where he wants to be. With the elbows and hips, Take a deep breath. I would ring your breeder and maybe get their help to put you in the direction of a vet used to dealing with large sighthounds. I believe you made another post about a large fluid filled lump on his elbow. Is he lame? reluctant to exercise? Elbow dysplasia is very painful and the "lump" is hard with some swelling, generally, not fluid filled and non-painful. thats the thing, he would let me play with lump and he wasn't fussed. he's been a little slower with exercise but not lame from what i could see. The lump was harder yesterday, but the days before that it seemed to be softer, fluid filled in my opinion. Its not that the vet even thinks its mild ED, he thinks its more developed than that. I'll be calling the breeder today, and try to get a recommendation for someone with more sighthound knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANERANGER Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Great advice 'Diva' If I'm ever unsure about any of my dogs well-being, I take their temp first then have a systems check...gums, pulse rate, complete scan of the body for anything foreign or bites and simply watch water, food intake and watch for, out of the ordinary movement or behavior, never panic in these situations, unless you know for certain its something crucial...snake bite, bloat etc Good luck with your baby, talk to your breeder today and keep us posted...a second vets opinion on the first diagnosis would be recommended...and the only 'real' way they can know for sure if its something more sinister is by having x-rays done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 i was shocked that he thought it was dysplasia given he's a borzoi. He was quite convinced. not sure if he's experienced with sighthounds. the vet nurse didn't know how to spell borzoi and the vet thought Oberon was too skinny yet a russian woman in town thought he was a fat borzoi puppy. I think i'll talk to the breeder tomorrow. Just way too emotional right now. Good luck. thank you. I must admit when I read your other post it was the first thing that came to my mind - an effusion caused by ED. Is ED very rare in Borzoi pups? They are certainly tall enough to fit into the category of dogs that could develop it as they grow. The symptoms are the same in all breeds though so I wouldn't put too much faith in the fact that he might not know the breed well. If it is ED it's good that it's been caught early. I sympathise as I've been through it with a pup that I bred. I was just devastated the day that I found out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Speak to his breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Speak to his breeder. What if the breeder has no experience with ED? Giving that advice is not always going to end happily for puppy owners as some breeders are just not happy to hear about genetic problems in the pups they've produced. I think we've seen evidence of that on here on several occassions. I certainly do think that the breeder needs to be notified but if the dog has a joint problem then a specialist vet who needs to be called. Perhaps the breeder can suggest one but otherwise I'm not sure what else they can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Elbow dysplasia is very painful and the "lump" is hard with some swelling, generally, not fluid filled and non-painful. I haven only experienced one dog with ED who had effusions on both elbows and they weren't painful to touch - well he didn't react when they were palpated. The effusion is a pocket of fluid that forms to try to stabilise the unstable joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_meg Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 Speak to his breeder. What if the breeder has no experience with ED? Giving that advice is not always going to end happily for puppy owners as some breeders are just not happy to hear about genetic problems in the pups they've produced. I think we've seen evidence of that on here on several occassions. I certainly do think that the breeder needs to be notified but if the dog has a joint problem then a specialist vet who needs to be called. Perhaps the breeder can suggest one but otherwise I'm not sure what else they can do. The breeder gave a guarantee for genetic issues like this. she was so sure it wouldn't happen. am going to call her now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Speak to his breeder. What if the breeder has no experience with ED? Giving that advice is not always going to end happily for puppy owners as some breeders are just not happy to hear about genetic problems in the pups they've produced. I think we've seen evidence of that on here on several occassions. I certainly do think that the breeder needs to be notified but if the dog has a joint problem then a specialist vet who needs to be called. Perhaps the breeder can suggest one but otherwise I'm not sure what else they can do. The breeder gave a guarantee for genetic issues like this. she was so sure it wouldn't happen. am going to call her now. That's great - let us know how you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Speak to his breeder. What if the breeder has no experience with ED? Giving that advice is not always going to end happily for puppy owners as some breeders are just not happy to hear about genetic problems in the pups they've produced. I think we've seen evidence of that on here on several occassions. I certainly do think that the breeder needs to be notified but if the dog has a joint problem then a specialist vet who needs to be called. Perhaps the breeder can suggest one but otherwise I'm not sure what else they can do. I can guarantee that his breeder will want to know about any supposed reaction to vaccine, what the pup was vaccinated with and what the vet thinks is wrong with this pup before the owner goes rushing off and doing anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Speak to his breeder. What if the breeder has no experience with ED? Giving that advice is not always going to end happily for puppy owners as some breeders are just not happy to hear about genetic problems in the pups they've produced. I think we've seen evidence of that on here on several occassions. I certainly do think that the breeder needs to be notified but if the dog has a joint problem then a specialist vet who needs to be called. Perhaps the breeder can suggest one but otherwise I'm not sure what else they can do. I can guarantee that his breeder will want to know about any supposed reaction to vaccine, what the pup was vaccinated with and what the vet thinks is wrong with this pup before the owner goes rushing off and doing anything else. So yes - notify the breeder but that doesn't really tell the owner what to do next does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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