Difference Between Main And Limited Register?

[Shmurps]

Could someone please tell me the difference between Main and Limited Register?

[oakway]

Main..........you can do what you like with the animal, show breed etc..

Limited.......no breeding or showing but you can do obedience and other similar activities.

Edited to say limited may often come with a private de sexing contract.

Edited November 22, 2009 by oakway

[YOLO]

I can’t help but wonder if the LR has unintended negative consequences???

It’s my opinion that Puppy Mills, BYBs, and unethical breeders continue to thrive because of the high demand for pets that is not being met by Ethical Registered Breeders.

So you would think that the LR would help this situation, but I’m not so sure…

I literally have a choice of two breeders: Breeder A is considered by some to be unethical, and whilst they claim to have all the Hip & Eyes scores, etc, they are slow to produce them. Yet most of their pups are sold on the MR.

Breeder B is more expensive, and puts ALL their pups on the LR. The Sire & Dam are beautiful champions, with perfect scores.

So here’s my point: I want to do “the right” thing, so I won’t buy from Breeder A.

I’m not buying with the intention of breeding (Jasper is neutered) and if I did want to breed in the future, it would only be if our bitch had perfect scores, met the breed standard, and we could find a perfect stud for her. Yet I am restricted from even showing our dog if I buy from Breeder B.

A person who wanted to do “the WRONG thing” would buy a flawed dog from Breeder A and breed it without regard to scores or breed standards.

So I wonder if the LR isn’t yet another measure that penalises responsible owners and actually encourages irresponsible behaviour?

Looking at it another way, I believe 100% that only dogs with clear scores, who conform to the basic breed standard, should be allowed to breed and have their pups registered. But shouldn’t that be an objective test, rather than an arbitrary decision made by a breeder before pups are even born?

Maybe it’s just me, but it seems to me to be a strange logic that says “Our dogs are perfect and good enough to breed, but their offspring will automatically not be!”

Finally, where do you expect the next generation of dog handlers to come from?? My daughter would like to get involved in dog shows, but Coco was too ill, Jasper is a rescue dog, and apparently a new pup on the LR can’t be shown…

[Gayle.]

So here’s my point: I want to do “the right” thing, so I won’t buy from Breeder A.

I’m not buying with the intention of breeding (Jasper is neutered) and if I did want to breed in the future, it would only be if our bitch had perfect scores, met the breed standard, and we could find a perfect stud for her. Yet I am restricted from even showing our dog if I buy from Breeder B.

A person who wanted to do “the WRONG thing” would buy a flawed dog from Breeder A and breed it without regard to scores or breed standards.

So I wonder if the LR isn’t yet another measure that penalises responsible owners and actually encourages irresponsible behaviour?

Looking at it another way, I believe 100% that only dogs with clear scores, who conform to the basic breed standard, should be allowed to breed and have their pups registered. But shouldn’t that be an objective test, rather than an arbitrary decision made by a breeder before pups are even born?

Maybe it’s just me, but it seems to me to be a strange logic that says “Our dogs are perfect and good enough to breed, but their offspring will automatically not be!”

Finally, where do you expect the next generation of dog handlers to come from?? My daughter would like to get involved in dog shows, but Coco was too ill, Jasper is a rescue dog, and apparently a new pup on the LR can’t be shown…

Discuss it with the breeder. Some breeders do put everything on limited register, but that doesn't mean they might not be open to one of their quality pups being shown.....you just need to ask and let them know of your interest.

[Christina]

Main reg means you can show or breed.

Limited reg means you can't but

Canine Associations are now starting shows for desexed dogs which was not allowed before.

Although limited registration is non breeding it still does not stop the unscrupulous.

They will either breed the dog anyway & sell pups as pet & show the buyer a copy of the parents pedigree.

Just means the pups can't be registered. Not much protection for the dog or lines really.

If a person genuinely wants a quality pet from a good breeder limited registration should not put them off.

It does not mean the dog is inferior quality it just means the breeder would like the dog to have a pet home as opposed to show/breed.

[t-time]

A person who wanted to do “the WRONG thing” would buy a flawed dog from Breeder A and breed it without regard to scores or breed standards.

A "unethical" breeder, puppy miller or BYB doesn't give a toss about which register the bitch is on as long as it's entire

As long as Breeder "A" provides what you want in the way of health testing, conformation of sire & dam and the puppy with "show potential" you are looking at purchasing, why wouldn't you go with Breeder "A" - because of rumour or negative opinion from others?

For me, I would want proof for myself as to Breeder "A"s ethics or lack of...

Obviously Breeder "B" will not sell you a "show potential" pup without negotiation, so if that's the breeder you really want to go with, ASK if they are prepared to sell a "show potential" puppy on Main Register.

[shells]

Yet I am restricted from even showing our dog if I buy from Breeder B.

Why dont you ask Breeder B if she has a pup she will be willing to go on "breeders terms". This means you will be able to show her and a good contract draw up may see your dog/bitch produce pups in the future.

Have you spoken to Breeder B about a pup to show? Are you concrete in your plans to show the dog? If you are waivering and not committed that may put Breeder B off. I am sure that many a good breeder has been scammed by people "just wanting a pet to love" who later on has gone on the be unethically used (not saying this is what you are doing)

[poodlefan]

I literally have a choice of two breeders: Breeder A is considered by some to be unethical, and whilst they claim to have all the Hip & Eyes scores, etc, they are slow to produce them. Yet most of their pups are sold on the MR.

Breeder B is more expensive, and puts ALL their pups on the LR. The Sire & Dam are beautiful champions, with perfect scores.

You are only limited to two because you refuse to consider the possiblity of bringing a pup over from the east.

Breeder B needs to know that you are:

* interested in showing

* prepared to negotitate terms on the dog (eg. co-ownership) before considering registering a pup on Main. I'm thinking that Breeder B's Limited Register ad is aimed at pet puppy buyers.

If you are serious about showing then you need to buy the best quality pup you can find. If that's east then that's where you should be looking.

Edited October 4, 2010 by poodlefan

[LizT]

Also of note is the fact that if your animal turns out to be exceptional (they all are of course!) you can, if the breeder is agreeable, transfer your dog from Limited to Main with a signature and a fee.

[Tassie]

Also of note is the fact that if your animal turns out to be exceptional (they all are of course!) you can, if the breeder is agreeable, transfer your dog from Limited to Main with a signature and a fee.

+1

Poodlefan wrote -

Breeder B needs to know that you are:

* interested in showing

* prepared to negotitate terms on the dog (eg. co-ownership) before considering registering a pup on Main. I'm thinking that Breeder B's Limited Register ad is aimed at pet puppy buyers.

If you are serious about showing then you need to buy the best quality pup you can find. If that's east then that's where you should be looking.

As usual I agree with PF. You need to discuss this with Breeder B. It would help if you had a mentor in the show world - that would influence a breeder's decision, I would think - it did in my case.

But having said that, it is an interesting point that Big D raises - although for me, it's a green flag that a breeder (who health tests and publicises scores) advertises pet/performance pups on LR.

[dancinbcs]

If you are seriously interested in showing then you need to approach breeders with the intention of buying a show puppy. In some litters there may only be one show puppy and if the breeder is keeping that one, the others will only be sold on limit. Other litters may have 3 or 4 show quality puppies and many breeders would be happy to sell one to a genuine show home on main. Breeders with more space and money are more likely to keep any really good quality bitches they produce, so sometimes you have more chance getting a bitch puppy from a smaller breeder who has to limit their numbers.

One problem with selling a main register puppy to a potential new show home is that they may not decide to show after all and desex the puppy. This is then a complete waste of a good quality puppy that should have been used as future breeding stock for the breed. It is a catch 22 situation. If you never trust anyone new with a main register puppy, there are no new breeders, but if you do, you run the risk of losing top quality dogs from the gene pool.

A lot of breeders require co-ownership on main register puppies until they get to know you because many have been caught out by people posing as show buyers, that are in fact dealers that sell puppies for export to Asia. It has been a problem in my breed in the past and many breeders are wary of signing over a main register puppy to someone they don't know. There is nothing worse than selling a top quality puppy to a keen new show home, only to find that they passed it on to a dealer, who onsold it overseas for ten times the price, to a puppy farm.

The other scam used on breeders is newcomers buying a puppy to show, going to just a few shows, before giving up but becoming breeders just producing puppies for profit. This has happened to me with a litter sired by one of my dogs. These people where showing two young bitches and bought the son of my dog from another breeder supposedly to show as well. All seemed good for a couple of months, than they stopped showing and proceeded to breed the dog to those bitches every season, despite being told that there was a potentially fatal genetic combination with one of the bitches.

If you go into a co-own situation make sure you have the details in writing. Some breeders expect to get the bitch back to breed a litter or two and this is actually breeders terms, but others are happy to just leave their name on as co-owner to protect the puppy from being onsold to someone else and to have a say in what it is bred to. In all other ways they consider the puppy belongs to you.

If your daughter really wants to show it would be a good idea to take her to shows and get to know some breeders. Pick one you are happy with and let our daughter offer to help out at the shows so she learns about the dogs and the breeder learns about her. Once they get to know her thay are far more likely to let her have a really good show puppy if they think she will do it justice.

If there are really not many breeders in your area, then put what breed you are after on here and ask for recommendations of breeders who will work with you to get you into the world of dog shows.

Good luck in your hunt for a puppy and remember you may have to wait to get one that is really worth showing.

[Miranda]

Looking at it another way, I believe 100% that only dogs with clear scores, who conform to the basic breed standard, should be allowed to breed and have their pups registered. But shouldn’t that be an objective test, rather than an arbitrary decision made by a breeder before pups are even born?

Maybe it’s just me, but it seems to me to be a strange logic that says “Our dogs are perfect and good enough to breed, but their offspring will automatically not be!”

Finally, where do you expect the next generation of dog handlers to come from?? My daughter would like to get involved in dog shows, but Coco was too ill, Jasper is a rescue dog, and apparently a new pup on the LR can’t be shown…

When you breed a litter, you only get a few puppies that are of such outstanding quality that they are suitable for showing and breeding. Of course there are exceptions, but in general, regardless of how much planning you put into a litter and how good the parents are, there are only a few puppies genuinely suitable to be placed on main register. Those breeders who place every single puppy on main are IMO either totally kennel blind, incapable of seeing the difference between a well conformed typey puppy and an inferior one or just don't care about the future of their breed or their own reputation as a breeder.

I won't sell a puppy on main register to a novice exhibitor who may or may not show, if I think they lack commitment they don't get the dog, the last thing a breeder wants to do with a promising puppy is to hand it over to a newbie who purports to be keen, but ends up doing a few shows and then gives up and has the puppy desexed because it's a nuisance owning an entire animal. This happens all the time even if the puppy buyer has signed a contract or the puppy is co-owned. People on DOL are always whinging about the shortcomings of breeders, but believe me puppy buyers can be just as unethical as some breeders.

Big D I'm sure that if you contact breeder B and discuss the matter there may be a possibility of acquiring a puppy on main register. As for breeder A, I wouldn't even consider purchasing from them, it's really well worth the effort to establish a relationship with an ethical, reputable breeder who owns good stock even if it means that you have to wait a little longer for your puppy.

Edited because I mixed up my A's and B's LOL.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Miranda

[asal]

for decades i thought as a breeder and member of the cc your brief was not only to work to maintain the standard but welcome newbies to also maintain the breed?

all LR puppies mean the breed stops with the breeder. and just read the lists of for sale puppies. the majority do not sell MR puppies.

after my last fiasco with what was supposed to be a long time showie who wanted a show quality PET, but wanted to get back into the ring for fun, said to me anyway they knew even if it had seemingly perfect as a pup no breeder i know can guarantee the teeth will come in perfect and said so at the time of purchase.

the pup they purchased ended up ill and the vet had them sign it over , so since it had a full brother that at the time of purchase neither the buyer or her judge friends were sure which was the better, i gave her the brother. interestingly a week later received a phone call asking if it would be safe to use the flea stuff the vet had put on his brother, as had just noticed the packet said the dose was for a 10 kg dog. the suddenly ill pup had weighed 1 kg at the time of the dosage and immume system began crashing 3 days later and took nearly 3 months to recover after many blood transfusion to save him.

anyway so no his brother didnt get the dose and thrived. except his teeth unlike is brother didnt come in correctly. so i was contacted and asked for a refund and return as the gallery at the shows had assured her, that main register is a guarantee of show quality. as well she now wanted a pup that could make CH and the gallery had assured her MR means its good enough to make CH.

so, considering how many of us run on what seemed perfect dentition pups to find roughly 50 percent of pups dont mature the same dentition as adults they had as pups, n as for conformation, so much can change from the darling baby to the adult.

in this new age i see no reason to risk main registering a pup again.

because according the this new rule as advised by her fellow show companions MR is a guarantee of the dog making CH.

as i said in an earlier post, one lady advised me, that she never sells on MR and will not cease telling anyone foolish enough to get a puppy from me that i am a puppy farmer and my dogs are papered crossbreds unless i promise to never in future sell any on MR.

apparently she protectes herself by running on all pups until adult teeth are in and deciding which to keep, n sell. those that are sold on MR already have their adult teeth before evaluation.

since most people want a puppy not an adolescent? the only way to protect yourself though it seems. suppose at least in that case some are permitted to contribute to the future of the breed so not a total loss to the gene pool.

is this the only safe way to go now?

Edited October 4, 2010 by asal

[poodlefan]

since most people want a puppy not an adolescent? the only way to protect yourself though it seems. suppose at least in that case some are permitted to contribute to the future of the breed so not a total loss to the gene pool.

is this the only safe way to go now?

Nope, I'd say the best protection you've got is a very clear understanding with the buyer that a "show quality pup" is a prospect, not a certainty.

That and making no assumptions that previous experience in the show ring guarantees a decent buyer.

[Rebanne]

Canine Associations are now starting shows for desexed dogs which was not allowed before.

dog still needs to be on main register to be shown in the neuter class

[YOLO]

Hi All,

It wasn’t intended as a whinge about my personal situation, that was for illustrative purposes only. I’m asking a philosophical question as to whether the Limited Register is having the desired effect, or perhaps having unintended consequences?

I certainly didn’t wish to convey a direct criticism of either Breeder. They could represent breeders of any breed.

[OSoSwift]

1 - Broaden your horizons

2 - Unethical puppy farmers couldn't care less about MR or any register

3 - if your dog will be a pet who cares what register it will be on

4 - Many breeders, once you have established a relationship will transfer the puppy up to the main register.

Any puppies that I have will automatically go on the LR (except for the one I keep myself). If a puppy is deemed show POTENTIAL it will be upgraded to MR. Most of the people who buy my puppies are pet owners so they don't care which register they are on. My pets go with a desexing contract. If however the people wanted me to assess their puppy and I deemed it of show potential then I would tear up the desexing contract.

[Miss Danni]

1 - Broaden your horizons

2 - Unethical puppy farmers couldn't care less about MR or any register

3 - if your dog will be a pet who cares what register it will be on

4 - Many breeders, once you have established a relationship will transfer the puppy up to the main register.

Any puppies that I have will automatically go on the LR (except for the one I keep myself). If a puppy is deemed show POTENTIAL it will be upgraded to MR. Most of the people who buy my puppies are pet owners so they don't care which register they are on. My pets go with a desexing contract. If however the people wanted me to assess their puppy and I deemed it of show potential then I would tear up the desexing contract.

+1

I would be more than happy to pay to upgrade a LR puppy to MR if I assessed it and thought it would do well at shows and that the owners would actualy SHOW it, not just say that they will. We now register all of our pups as LR except what we are keeping. Saves lots of hassles.

[MissMonaro]

Why not talk to the breeder you like and explain to them.

We sell all our pups on LR - Main is only by negotiation.

If you want to show or breed etc then the pup could be put into joint names and once health testing is done and commitment to showing etc then dog can be transferred over to you completely.

[Christina]

Looking at it another way, I believe 100% that only dogs with clear scores, who conform to the basic breed standard, should be allowed to breed and have their pups registered. But shouldn’t that be an objective test, rather than an arbitrary decision made by a breeder before pups are even born?

Maybe it’s just me, but it seems to me to be a strange logic that says “Our dogs are perfect and good enough to breed, but their offspring will automatically not be!”

Finally, where do you expect the next generation of dog handlers to come from?? My daughter would like to get involved in dog shows, but Coco was too ill, Jasper is a rescue dog, and apparently a new pup on the LR can’t be shown…

I won't sell a puppy on main register to a novice exhibitor who may or may not show, if I think they lack commitment they don't get the dog, the last thing a breeder wants to do with a promising puppy is to hand it over to a newbie who purports to be keen, but ends up doing a few shows and then gives up and has the puppy desexed because it's a nuisance owning an entire animal. This happens all the time even if the puppy buyer has signed a contract or the puppy is co-owned. People on DOL are always whinging about the shortcomings of breeders, but believe me puppy buyers can be just as unethical as some breeders.

I don't understand the above ?

The puppy may be promising but obviously not promising enough which can become evident after a few months & a few shows, not at time of placing in the new home.

The puppy may not like the shows, not all develop the love & desirable reaction to it all.

The novice exhibitor may not like the shows when they have been to a few.

So the new owner desexes & has a pet & they both live happily ever after.

What is so wrong with that ?

Should the puppy be sold on ? because it is too good to be just a pet ?

Should it be forced to shows when it is either not up to scratch or hates the whole thing ?

Should the new owner be forced to show even though it is a miserable experience for them ?

Should the new owner be forced to keep the dog entire when it is better off being desexed & more sensible ?

Sometimes breeders will run on a dog & show for a few shows & then decide not to show this particular dog for various reasons.

I would call a puppy buyer unethical if they did not love & care for the dog & put its physical & mental welfare first.

Showing the dog is not part of that equation. It is something else.