laeral Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Do you have access to another vet by any chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minky Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 Pull your head in Stonebridge. Obviously you are perfect So sorry for the loss of your pups Minky. Must be devastating for you. Hope you get to the bottom of the cause. thank you Garth it's devasating and after a week of this I'm surprised I have any tears left as I live for my dogs. i came on here for some help not to be judged on why i had 3 litters at once or why I'm treating at home etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minky Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 Do you have access to another vet by any chance? In the next town which I'm going to have to see if anymore of my pups get sick as I can;t keep this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninahartland Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Sorry I don't have any advice Minky, have never had anything to do with parvo (touch wood ) but just want to say what a horrible time you're going through and sending good thoughts for the rest of the pups to pull through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Sorry I don't have any advice Minky, have never had anything to do with parvo (touch wood ) but just want to say what a horrible time you're going through and sending good thoughts for the rest of the pups to pull through One thing that does not appear to have been considered is the vaccine your vet is currently stocked with may be contaminated in some way. It seems unusual that all puppies were fine and healthy until they had their vaccinations and then so many were lost so quickly. If you are going to take your pups to the next town may I suggest that you give the vet a ring and let them know they are most likely parvo. If it is, by now your entire property is compromises as is your house, furniture, clothing and vehicles. You may wish to consider having kitty litter trays of VirkonS at the doorways to your litters, if you step into them as going in and out you may be able to limit further spread from/to the puppies. Virkon S will bleach out fabrics but is very effective at killing parvo virus. I am surprised your vet didn't know that a positive test would be returned a day after a vaccine. At this point IMHO I would have little or no confidence in your vet at all. The question about what breed are your pups is relevant to the issue. Black and tan puppies apparently have a much higher susceptbility to parvo and have a weaker immune system to deal with it. With the puppies already sick and weakened with the vaccination, it is possible treating with baycox was too much for their little systems.. not that you would have a choice if it was coccydiosis (sp). My heart goes out to you at having lost so many young pups at once. I can only imagine how exhausted you must be trying to treat so many puppies at one time. I would definitely suggest if you lose any further puppies that you get them autopsied (by a different vet than the one you have been currently relying on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickojoy Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Ams - all pups can be fine for weeks, but if they are exposed to the virus and then get vaccinated it makes their immune system drop, therefore they can pick up anything. Do the pups smell? Smell like burnt blood, you can never in your life forget the smell of parvo, it stinks. If their breath smells sour, its parvo. Do you have alot of birds around? Could they have licked the bird poo and picked up coxcidiosoius? (got no idea how to spell it).... They would smell sour. I personally would be getting another vets opinion, if the vet sends you home with a pup and says its parvo or a tad over the positive level, they should either lose their licence or they think you can not afford the thousands of dollars of vet bills coming your way. Also, check what you have been feeding them, if it is eggs or chicken, could it be off? Pups pick up salmonella very easy and it is a very similar symtom to parvo but wont kill them as quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minky Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Ams - all pups can be fine for weeks, but if they are exposed to the virus and then get vaccinated it makes their immune system drop, therefore they can pick up anything. Do the pups smell? Smell like burnt blood, you can never in your life forget the smell of parvo, it stinks. If their breath smells sour, its parvo. Do you have alot of birds around? Could they have licked the bird poo and picked up coxcidiosoius? (got no idea how to spell it).... They would smell sour. I personally would be getting another vets opinion, if the vet sends you home with a pup and says its parvo or a tad over the positive level, they should either lose their licence or they think you can not afford the thousands of dollars of vet bills coming your way. Also, check what you have been feeding them, if it is eggs or chicken, could it be off? Pups pick up salmonella very easy and it is a very similar symtom to parvo but wont kill them as quickly. There was no sour breath, no smelly poo. We had a lot of birds coming around for water. the poo sort of looked curdled with mucus, it was strange. It wasn't watery liquid. At the time my vet sent me home with my pup, I only had one sick and none were sick until they had been to the vets for vaccination & microchipping. I feed them boiled chicken & rice and Advanced puppy dried food. They're also has some puppy tin food and pedigree puppy milk. Plus still had a feed of mum a few times a day. thank Heavens we are holding our own! No sick puppies, all playing, no depression and all eating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minky Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Sorry I don't have any advice Minky, have never had anything to do with parvo (touch wood ) but just want to say what a horrible time you're going through and sending good thoughts for the rest of the pups to pull through One thing that does not appear to have been considered is the vaccine your vet is currently stocked with may be contaminated in some way. It seems unusual that all puppies were fine and healthy until they had their vaccinations and then so many were lost so quickly. If you are going to take your pups to the next town may I suggest that you give the vet a ring and let them know they are most likely parvo. If it is, by now your entire property is compromises as is your house, furniture, clothing and vehicles. You may wish to consider having kitty litter trays of VirkonS at the doorways to your litters, if you step into them as going in and out you may be able to limit further spread from/to the puppies. Virkon S will bleach out fabrics but is very effective at killing parvo virus. I am surprised your vet didn't know that a positive test would be returned a day after a vaccine. At this point IMHO I would have little or no confidence in your vet at all. The question about what breed are your pups is relevant to the issue. Black and tan puppies apparently have a much higher susceptbility to parvo and have a weaker immune system to deal with it. With the puppies already sick and weakened with the vaccination, it is possible treating with baycox was too much for their little systems.. not that you would have a choice if it was coccydiosis (sp). My heart goes out to you at having lost so many young pups at once. I can only imagine how exhausted you must be trying to treat so many puppies at one time. I would definitely suggest if you lose any further puppies that you get them autopsied (by a different vet than the one you have been currently relying on). If this ever happens again an autopsy will be done. I have sable Tibetan Spaniels. I'll look into getting some of that Virkon S and I've purchased 2 of those entry mats that hold disinfectant. My vet never said anything about a positive test would be returned a day after a vaccine. the first puppy was vaccinated on the Friday and tested positive on the Monday. I've heard parvo is going around but also that gastro is to. thanx for your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Glad things have settled down for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Agree with Gareth - pull your head in Stonebridge. Learn to accept deserved criticism. Notice you weren't too happy about being bagged some months ago, would have thought that you might have acquired some empathy. Apparently not. Minky - sorry about your pups. Nasty thing to happen Baycox + vac wouldn't have affected them like that. Testing for parvo after vac always gives a positive. Could be parvo Could by corona Could be bacterial Could be a bad reaction to the vaccination. It does happen. Chihuahuas, staffies, rottweilers, malts that I know of, and I believe steve lost beagles and boxers after vac. Some breeds are more susceptible than others + black and tan dogs. If I read your first post correctly, they began to die after vac. Symptoms are flat and depressed, wont eat, may vomit a little, may froth from the mouth, can have diarrohea, but not like parvo. Die within 12 - 24 hours of first symptoms. Supportive treatment can help, but usually doesn't. And not all pups are affected. Make up a diary of the deaths, with a timeline, and go to another vet - maybe a medical specialist, or a vet who services the closest pound, or RSPCA or big pet shop. Vets who do that see a lot of parvo and may have seen vaccine reactions, and generally have a good knowledge of it, which not all vets do. Pay for a consult, and discuss this with the vet. If you intend to breed again, you need to know what it is, why it is and how to prevent it. Your current vet doesn't seem to have a good handle on it. And yes, if you are unfortunate to lose another, do have a pm done. It may be important, if reaction to the vaccine was the problem, to try to ascertain whether there was an underlying cause. I believe pups with mild liver shunt (ie, not diagnosed, or showing any symptoms) are prone to bad reactions to vaccine, as are pups with other liver problems. If it is a reaction to the vaccine, they should be ok now. They usually die 1 - 3 days after vaccination. But you need to speak to someone with more knowledge. So sad when something like that happens. Nicojoy, may I ask please, why you believe that ordinary bleach doesn't kill parvo? All the information I have (from vet books, not the net) says bleach will kill parvo, although not in the presence of soil. This is backed by advice from vets experienced with parvo and coronis. My experience (as far as anyone can tell) is that bleach in water does work. Is there new research? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Jed Pull your own head in I am not the only one who asked these questions OK! The situation you may be talking about but which you had no right to bring up on this thread has nothing to do with the questions I asked. Edited November 24, 2009 by stonebridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centitout Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Pull your head in Stonebridge. Obviously you are perfect :p So sorry for the loss of your pups Minky. Must be devastating for you. Hope you get to the bottom of the cause. thank you Garth it's devasating and after a week of this I'm surprised I have any tears left as I live for my dogs. i came on here for some help not to be judged on why i had 3 litters at once or why I'm treating at home etc. Losing any pup is devestating Minky,let alone the numbers you have. 3 litters together,how does anyone know if they are all you have bred this year,who gives anyone the right to question someone if they have 3 litters at once,or spread over a year. i got called in to question to for having 3 litters in a year,we ended up losing 4 from one and that bitch mauled her own puppy to death last week,still dont know why. The vets here think parvo is airborne,they said there has been a huge increase in cases after the big dust storms,same as corona. I agree with using virkon on lawns and bleach everywhere else-when i was vet nursin g the dilution rate was 20% bleach-i used to use straight hospital grade and we also had to wash our hands /arms in straight-that did bloody burn! Have you got them on electrolytes(vytrate/lectade etc) I would also add nutrigel to water and give orally to ones that arent squiting too bad. You also need to get a necropsy done-may prevent you having to go through this again. And to the holier than thou brigade-well,i cant post what i would normally say,how about you guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minky Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Agree with Gareth - pull your head in Stonebridge. Learn to accept deserved criticism. Notice you weren't too happy about being bagged some months ago, would have thought that you might have acquired some empathy. Apparently not.Minky - sorry about your pups. Nasty thing to happen Baycox + vac wouldn't have affected them like that. Testing for parvo after vac always gives a positive. Could be parvo Could by corona Could be bacterial Could be a bad reaction to the vaccination. It does happen. Chihuahuas, staffies, rottweilers, malts that I know of, and I believe steve lost beagles and boxers after vac. Some breeds are more susceptible than others + black and tan dogs. If I read your first post correctly, they began to die after vac. Symptoms are flat and depressed, wont eat, may vomit a little, may froth from the mouth, can have diarrohea, but not like parvo. Die within 12 - 24 hours of first symptoms. Supportive treatment can help, but usually doesn't. And not all pups are affected. Make up a diary of the deaths, with a timeline, and go to another vet - maybe a medical specialist, or a vet who services the closest pound, or RSPCA or big pet shop. Vets who do that see a lot of parvo and may have seen vaccine reactions, and generally have a good knowledge of it, which not all vets do. Pay for a consult, and discuss this with the vet. If you intend to breed again, you need to know what it is, why it is and how to prevent it. Your current vet doesn't seem to have a good handle on it. And yes, if you are unfortunate to lose another, do have a pm done. It may be important, if reaction to the vaccine was the problem, to try to ascertain whether there was an underlying cause. I believe pups with mild liver shunt (ie, not diagnosed, or showing any symptoms) are prone to bad reactions to vaccine, as are pups with other liver problems. If it is a reaction to the vaccine, they should be ok now. They usually die 1 - 3 days after vaccination. But you need to speak to someone with more knowledge. So sad when something like that happens. Nicojoy, may I ask please, why you believe that ordinary bleach doesn't kill parvo? All the information I have (from vet books, not the net) says bleach will kill parvo, although not in the presence of soil. This is backed by advice from vets experienced with parvo and coronis. My experience (as far as anyone can tell) is that bleach in water does work. Is there new research? Hi Jed, Thats right, they began to die and get sick within days of having the vaccinations. All symtoms were correct but one other thing I wrote later was the poo resembled a blob of something curdled with mucus through it. Was a tan colour and did not stink rotten like parvo. I had a case of parvo 3 or 4 years ago with one pup I purchased. It died at the vets within weeks of having it. Thank You for your good advice and your thoughts on the death of my puppies. So far and thank heavens I have no more puppies showing signs of being sick. My 3rd litter is 7 weeks old and due to be vaccinated & microchipped and it scares the hell out of me to be truthful. It will be awhile before I bred again as I only let my girls have a litter every few years. I bought some F10 as I was told bleach didn't kill parvo so I'll be doing everything inside with this. I will do all the puppy area (concrete) with bleach a few times before I use it again. One other thing, I have new neighbours (about 3 months) and they have chooks that run around the back yard and they also have rabbits in cages. I asked them to treat they're pets to be on the safe side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minky Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Glad things have settled down for you :p Thank You for your thoughts on the death of my puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minky Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Sorry to hear about your pups, when I was in rescue I watched many of my pups from the pounds/surrended suffer from this horrible virus. I moved house to a upperclass town and we never see parvo in any of our vets now.Just some advice. F10 does NOT kill parvo in the yard/dirt/ground. It only kills it on hard no porporus surfaces like your concrete and tiles. Virkon S is the only product that will kill parvo in the yard/dirt/ground/wood ect. Normal household bleach does NOT kill parvo. You need industrial strength bleach, the type that you must wear a mask and gloves because it will burn your skin. I would seperate all your litters. Ensure they are on clean concret so you know what is going on with their poos, as soon as you see a runny bloody one get them out of there. Get them off your grass. But just to be safe, I would be taking everyone to the vet and getting a parvo test done. It will work out cheaper than loosing the entire litter. Pups can give a positive reading even though they have no symtoms, but tomorrow they could be dead. A parvo test is either positive or negative, there is no inbetween. Green poo generally means they may have eaten something in the garden... Parvo will live in your ground for approx 7 years. My question back to you is, why the heck have you got so many litters? and what breed are these pups? Thank You for your good advice and your thoughts on the death of my puppies. where do you buy the Virkon S from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minky Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Sorry I don't have any advice Minky, have never had anything to do with parvo (touch wood ) but just want to say what a horrible time you're going through and sending good thoughts for the rest of the pups to pull through :p Thank You for your thoughts on the death of my puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Minky, I would not be vaccinating your Tibbies until they are at least 8 weeks old, and possibly older. Esp given that so many have died from the early vaccs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 JedPull your own head in I am not the only one who asked these questions OK! The situation you may be talking about but which you had no right to bring up on this thread has nothing to do with the questions I asked. Your behaviour indicates you needed pulling up. The number of litters is NOYFB anyhow, and this is not the time to raise it. And as far as "the situation" goes, I would have thought it might have taught you a little consideration and empathy for others.\ Apparently not. Don't expect any assistance or sympathy from the majority of forum users now, when you find yourself in a similar situation to the op. We know what you will expect The purpose of this forum is to assist dogs and owners, not to heap criticism and approbation on them when they need advice. You don't have to follow that purpose, of course, but your behaviour has been noted and will be remembered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Am I imagining it ? or did another breeder have a similar problem within the last couple of months ? I was reading this and thinking it was an old thread until i looked at the dates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) I agree with Rysup here. I wouldn't vaccinate until they were 8 or 9 weeks old, and I would consider vac with killed virus, just in case it was a reaction to the vaccines. The other thing is that rottwielers and chihuahuas are vaccinated with exactly the same amount of vaccine. Some vets halve the quantity given to toy breeds If I had this happen, I would go to another vet for the vac who was really switched on, do it at 8 - 9 weeks, and discuss the possibility of vac with killed vaccine, or with smaller doses. The other thing which has just occurred to me is that the carrier for the vac may have caused problems to the pups, and if so, the whole batch would be capable of causing problems, but I do think that is unlikely. Need to discuss this with a switched on vet. Another thought. Are any of these matings repeat matings? Same mother AND father? If there are previous litters who were fine with vac, it probably isn't the vac, but if these are first litters, it may be --- it's so difficult to know, so many variables, but I think these pups would be better to wait a bit to be vac. If you have parvo in the environment, they have either been kept away from infection, or are not going to catch it, so there should be no problem waiting, just in case they are susceptible to vaccinosis. So many questions, so few answers Your vet could get Virkon S for you. Or you can google it and approach a wholesaler, or the manufacturer directly. It isn't too cheap, and read the directions thoroughly, the virus needs to be in contact with the Virkon for a length of time. Forgotten how long I think you are right, SBT. Edited November 25, 2009 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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