Parvo Or Not?

[minky]

Am I imagining it ? or did another breeder have a similar problem within the last couple of months ? I was reading this and thinking it was an old thread until i looked at the dates

I did read about another breeder who had 23 pups and 11 died but I can't find that thread now. I wanted to re-read it.

[minky]

Minky, I would not be vaccinating your Tibbies until they are at least 8 weeks old, and possibly older. Esp given that so many have died from the early vaccs.

They are 8 weeks old next week but think I'll give them till they are 9 weeks. I'm scared to death about having the vac done.

[minky]

I agree with Rysup here. I wouldn't vaccinate until they were 8 or 9 weeks old, and I would consider vac with killed virus, just in case it was a reaction to the vaccines.

The other thing is that rottwielers and chihuahuas are vaccinated with exactly the same amount of vaccine. Some vets halve the quantity given to toy breeds

If I had this happen, I would go to another vet for the vac who was really switched on, do it at 8 - 9 weeks, and discuss the possibility of vac with killed vaccine, or with smaller doses. The other thing which has just occurred to me is that the carrier for the vac may have caused problems to the pups, and if so, the whole batch would be capable of causing problems, but I do think that is unlikely. Need to discuss this with a switched on vet.

Another thought. Are any of these matings repeat matings? Same mother AND father? If there are previous litters who were fine with vac, it probably isn't the vac, but if these are first litters, it may be --- it's so difficult to know, so many variables, but I think these pups would be better to wait a bit to be vac.

If you have parvo in the environment, they have either been kept away from infection, or are not going to catch it, so there should be no problem waiting, just in case they are susceptible to vaccinosis.

So many questions, so few answers

Your vet could get Virkon S for you. Or you can google it and approach a wholesaler, or the manufacturer directly. It isn't too cheap, and read the directions thoroughly, the virus needs to be in contact with the Virkon for a length of time. Forgotten how long

I think you are right, SBT.

I'll be waiting till they are over 8 weeks of age. Oh, it was C3 the others had. I only had the pups inside in a puppy pen and outside on one very small grassed area and a small concreted puppy area.

I only have the one male. 2 of the girls (4 yrs old) were having a second litter and one (2yr old) was her 1st litter.

Iwill be ordering some of that Virkon S for the grassed area.

I did ask the vet about if it would be better reducing the vac to a smaller dose and he said no that all dogs get the same amount.

[Jed]

Re vacs quantity. Switched on vets or those who have lost pups at vac time DO give some toy breeds 1/2 quantity. Quite regularly. Yours is saying "no" because he doesn't know about it, and is not open minded enough to research. Sorry.

find a more with it vet. Even if you have to travel. It will be worth it. Or even speak to someone who knows about vacs, if you can.

[WreckitWhippet]

Am I imagining it ? or did another breeder have a similar problem within the last couple of months ? I was reading this and thinking it was an old thread until i looked at the dates

I did read about another breeder who had 23 pups and 11 died but I can't find that thread now. I wanted to re-read it.

That's the one, it was quite similar.

[Ravyk]

I'm so sorry about your loss of puppies. Sending lots of positive and healing vibes to the remaining puppies. I hope the rest survive and live to be strong healthy puppies.

Like a few have suggested, I'd be finding a different vet.

[minky]

I'm so sorry about your loss of puppies. Sending lots of positive and healing vibes to the remaining puppies. I hope the rest survive and live to be strong healthy puppies.

Like a few have suggested, I'd be finding a different vet.

Tthank You

[Bullbreedlover]

Jed

Pull your own head in

I am not the only one who asked these questions

OK!

The situation you may be talking about but which you had no right to bring up on this thread has nothing to do with the questions I asked.

Your behaviour indicates you needed pulling up. The number of litters is NOYFB anyhow, and this is not the time to raise it. And as far as "the situation" goes, I would have thought it might have taught you a little consideration and empathy for others.\

Apparently not.

Don't expect any assistance or sympathy from the majority of forum users now, when you find yourself in a similar situation to the op. We know what you will expect

The purpose of this forum is to assist dogs and owners, not to heap criticism and approbation on them when they need advice. You don't have to follow that purpose, of course, but your behaviour has been noted and will be remembered.

What will I expect Jed? Is that a warning or a threat?

I asked some questions.

So did others.

I have consideration and empathy on lots of things.

Are you the boss round here? So sorry didnt know.

I told the poster that I thought her vets opinion was way off.

I asked the poster how many litters as obviously these ones certainly werent planned ones. And I was concerned at the time that maybe a bit of PF was going on.

The kind of questions that many other people have posted on other topics. have you jumped down their throats as well cause they happened to be concerned?

So sorry Jed if I offended you and others.

Sorry Minky to hear of your loss.

[gareth]

The purpose of this forum is to assist dogs and owners, not to heap criticism and approbation on them when they need advice.

Well said Jed. And don't you dare pull YOUR head in

[Trisven13]

Tibbiemax71 has Tibbies and her breeder, one of Australia's most experienced, told her something about being careful about vaccinations of some kind with her pups when it came time to have the vaccination as they have a bad reaction. For the life of me I can't remember what it was exactly that she said to be careful about and I have rung Tibbiemax to find out (ETA she is out at the moment and I have left a message).

Her breeder actually recommended against using some vaccine schedule or brand or something because Tibbies reacted badly to it. Sorry I can't remember more but will get Tibbiemax to come back in.

So sorry for your loss.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Trisven13

[centitout]

I'd like to know who decides if someone is a puppy farmer-after all i am one too,according to some.Is there a set criteria i can aspire to? Maybe we should have a panel of exalted breeders we should all pass before for judgement regarding our breeding practices-after all,if they dont agree with it,it must be wrong and unethical.

Even the best of breeders can have an accidental litter,and these sound like unusual circumstances,the op doesnt deserve the condescending attitude displayed by some.But i suppose some cant see past their halo

Minky,ignore the crap and take the advice of some of the experienced people on here, especially Jed ,without some of them i would have given up a long time ago.

[nickojoy]

Nicojoy, may I ask please, why you believe that ordinary bleach doesn't kill parvo? All the information I have (from vet books, not the net) says bleach will kill parvo, although not in the presence of soil. This is backed by advice from vets experienced with parvo and coronis. My experience (as far as anyone can tell) is that bleach in water does work. Is there new research?

Jed - I don't believe, I know..... I saw it with my own eyes in my own house with a litter. This is after everything was cleaned with bleach. Remember even normal house hold bleach is strong for pups, if used around the pups, it can cause problems with eyes and breathing with the vapours - Yes I have also seen this.

This is why I only use Virkon S. Because It is tested and works, if bleach worked properly, why did they invent F10, virkon S and Trigene?

All the pregnant bitches I pulled from the pound pups were fine to vac at 6 weeks and then desex at 8 and rehome. This was because the mothers were all given parvac. The only pups that I got parvo with was surrenders, and one litters first symtoms didn't show up until 14 days after their first vac and these pups were 10 weeks old when given a vac.

[nickojoy]

Tibbiemax71 has Tibbies and her breeder, one of Australia's most experienced, told her something about being careful about vaccinations of some kind with her pups when it came time to have the vaccination as they have a bad reaction. For the life of me I can't remember what it was exactly that she said to be careful about and I have rung Tibbiemax to find out (ETA she is out at the moment and I have left a message).

Her breeder actually recommended against using some vaccine schedule or brand or something because Tibbies reacted badly to it. Sorry I can't remember more but will get Tibbiemax to come back in.

So sorry for your loss.

I remember reading about the brand of vaccine many years ago, and that is why I asked back on page one what vac was given... There is a brand that will give extreme reactions and others nothing.

[Jed]

Tibbiemax71 has Tibbies and her breeder, one of Australia's most experienced, told her something about being careful about vaccinations of some kind with her pups when it came time to have the vaccination as they have a bad reaction. For the life of me I can't remember what it was exactly that she said to be careful about and I have rung Tibbiemax to find out (ETA she is out at the moment and I have left a message).

Her breeder actually recommended against using some vaccine schedule or brand or something because Tibbies reacted badly to it. Sorry I can't remember more but will get Tibbiemax to come back in.

So sorry for your loss.

Well, that's interesting. Be good if you could find out more. It does sound like a vaccination reaction to me. And what the vet has said / done doesn't seem like best practice either, or the behaviour of a vet who is au fait with parvo and vacs - and a lot aren't, so more information wuld be great, for Minky and these poor little pups.

nickojoy

Jed - I don't believe, I know..... I saw it with my own eyes in my own house with a litter. This is after everything was cleaned with bleach. Remember even normal house hold bleach is strong for pups, if used around the pups, it can cause problems with eyes and breathing with the vapours - Yes I have also seen this.

Every veterinary medicine book cites a cup of household chlorine bleach in a bucket of water to kill parvo - clinical trials show it works and it has worked for others. I've used it here after parvo pups who were visiting, and had no further problems. However, it has been proven NOT to kill parvo in the presence of soil so you have to ensure that the area is clean, and you can't simply spray.

The pups with parvo should be out of the area, (all pups!!) so they are not in direct contact with the bleach, and if necessary, everything can be rinsed. 1 cup to a bucket of water doesn't give off a lot of fumes, but of course, I have always used double the quantity (can't help myself) without problems. It is a very cheap and effective viricide, and when it dries, there are no fumes, and I've never heard of problems. When you are cleaning, it's easy to miss a tiny bit, and that would have to be the bit where there is some virus. LOL. I wouldn't rinse pens or crates, I'd put them in the sun to dry, but I would rinse toys, bowls etc. Things which pups would have in their mouths.

This is why I only use Virkon S. Because It is tested and works, if bleach worked properly, why did they invent F10, virkon S and Trigene?

Never used Trigene, but know Virkon S does work - in the presence of soil, but it has to be in contact with the virus for a certain lengh of time, and also at x strength. Great product, but expensive. Microcide worked very well - better than Virkon S, imho, but it was thought to be carcinogenic, and removed from sale.

They invented F10, Virkon S and Trigene because they could and I am sure that if people were buying bleach from the supermarket, the chemical companies wanted somethng THEY could make a profit from. Oh cynic that I am!!

What will I expect Jed? Is that a warning or a threat?

I have no idea what you can expect. Some thought your remarks were a bit off so that will colour their opinion of you. Whether their future responses to you will be changed by that, I cannot say.

Are you the boss round here? So sorry didnt know.

Naw, but like anyone else, I am free to express my opinions. As others who agreed with me did.

Are you the breeding police?

The kind of questions that many other people have posted on other topics. have you jumped down their throats as well cause they happened to be concerned?

Yes I have when they have been unkind and unpleasant, and I have happened to notice, and I will continue to do so.

How many litters the op breeds is up to her, not you. If you think you might be aiding a pf, and that disagrees with your ethos, your option is not to call her out on it, but to avoid the thread so your beliefs will not be compromised. This has been discussed at length over time, but you are too new to know that, and obviously haven't read older threads where it was discussed.

Advice is given by those who wish to do so for the good of the pups. Because we are all animal lovers. And because making judgemental calls is distressing for the op, who is already dealing with a bad situation encompassing the loss of pups, which is distressing to anyone.

Perfectly respectable breeders have come onto this forum and had the stuffing belted out of them by those who were prepared to judge and condemn with little or no evidence. Some rode through it and stuck around, and have contributed to the forum, some went away, and we are probably poorer for that. And maybe the entire pedigree dog world is poorer for that.

So sorry Jed if I offended you and others.

Apology accepted, although I am not offended. I simply pointed out the tacit agreement we have had for some time.

Allow the poster to divulge before making judgments, consider the welfare of the pups. We are supposed to be dog lovers. Check some threads where 90% of posters have said "go to your vet", and think about why that advice was offered by members who probably did have the answers.

[peibe]

Must be Chlorine Bleach

[minky]

I'd like to know who decides if someone is a puppy farmer-after all i am one too,according to some.Is there a set criteria i can aspire to? Maybe we should have a panel of exalted breeders we should all pass before for judgement regarding our breeding practices-after all,if they dont agree with it,it must be wrong and unethical.

Even the best of breeders can have an accidental litter,and these sound like unusual circumstances,the op doesnt deserve the condescending attitude displayed by some.But i suppose some cant see past their halo

Minky,ignore the crap and take the advice of some of the experienced people on here, especially Jed ,without some of them i would have given up a long time ago.

hi Centitout,

Thankyou for your thoughts and advice.

No matter what some think I know i'm not a pf and would do everything possible to protect my fur family. I've had people comment on how they want to come back as one of my dogs in a next life LOL.

I have been bought up not to judge others and to be truthful life is darn to short to be ignorant, grizzley and unhappy.

thankfully I've had no more puppies showing any signs of being sick and i hope it's all over now.

Can someone tell me if thhere is any or much difference between Virkon S and the F10 as I have F10.

[minky]

Tibbiemax71 has Tibbies and her breeder, one of Australia's most experienced, told her something about being careful about vaccinations of some kind with her pups when it came time to have the vaccination as they have a bad reaction. For the life of me I can't remember what it was exactly that she said to be careful about and I have rung Tibbiemax to find out (ETA she is out at the moment and I have left a message).

Her breeder actually recommended against using some vaccine schedule or brand or something because Tibbies reacted badly to it. Sorry I can't remember more but will get Tibbiemax to come back in.

So sorry for your loss.

Well, that's interesting. Be good if you could find out more. It does sound like a vaccination reaction to me. And what the vet has said / done doesn't seem like best practice either, or the behaviour of a vet who is au fait with parvo and vacs - and a lot aren't, so more information wuld be great, for Minky and these poor little pups.

nickojoy

Jed - I don't believe, I know..... I saw it with my own eyes in my own house with a litter. This is after everything was cleaned with bleach. Remember even normal house hold bleach is strong for pups, if used around the pups, it can cause problems with eyes and breathing with the vapours - Yes I have also seen this.

Every veterinary medicine book cites a cup of household chlorine bleach in a bucket of water to kill parvo - clinical trials show it works and it has worked for others. I've used it here after parvo pups who were visiting, and had no further problems. However, it has been proven NOT to kill parvo in the presence of soil so you have to ensure that the area is clean, and you can't simply spray.

The pups with parvo should be out of the area, (all pups!!) so they are not in direct contact with the bleach, and if necessary, everything can be rinsed. 1 cup to a bucket of water doesn't give off a lot of fumes, but of course, I have always used double the quantity (can't help myself) without problems. It is a very cheap and effective viricide, and when it dries, there are no fumes, and I've never heard of problems. When you are cleaning, it's easy to miss a tiny bit, and that would have to be the bit where there is some virus. LOL. I wouldn't rinse pens or crates, I'd put them in the sun to dry, but I would rinse toys, bowls etc. Things which pups would have in their mouths.

This is why I only use Virkon S. Because It is tested and works, if bleach worked properly, why did they invent F10, virkon S and Trigene?

Never used Trigene, but know Virkon S does work - in the presence of soil, but it has to be in contact with the virus for a certain lengh of time, and also at x strength. Great product, but expensive. Microcide worked very well - better than Virkon S, imho, but it was thought to be carcinogenic, and removed from sale.

They invented F10, Virkon S and Trigene because they could and I am sure that if people were buying bleach from the supermarket, the chemical companies wanted somethng THEY could make a profit from. Oh cynic that I am!!

What will I expect Jed? Is that a warning or a threat?

I have no idea what you can expect. Some thought your remarks were a bit off so that will colour their opinion of you. Whether their future responses to you will be changed by that, I cannot say.

Are you the boss round here? So sorry didnt know.

Naw, but like anyone else, I am free to express my opinions. As others who agreed with me did.

Are you the breeding police?

The kind of questions that many other people have posted on other topics. have you jumped down their throats as well cause they happened to be concerned?

Yes I have when they have been unkind and unpleasant, and I have happened to notice, and I will continue to do so.

How many litters the op breeds is up to her, not you. If you think you might be aiding a pf, and that disagrees with your ethos, your option is not to call her out on it, but to avoid the thread so your beliefs will not be compromised. This has been discussed at length over time, but you are too new to know that, and obviously haven't read older threads where it was discussed.

Advice is given by those who wish to do so for the good of the pups. Because we are all animal lovers. And because making judgemental calls is distressing for the op, who is already dealing with a bad situation encompassing the loss of pups, which is distressing to anyone.

Perfectly respectable breeders have come onto this forum and had the stuffing belted out of them by those who were prepared to judge and condemn with little or no evidence. Some rode through it and stuck around, and have contributed to the forum, some went away, and we are probably poorer for that. And maybe the entire pedigree dog world is poorer for that.

So sorry Jed if I offended you and others.

Apology accepted, although I am not offended. I simply pointed out the tacit agreement we have had for some time.

Allow the poster to divulge before making judgments, consider the welfare of the pups. We are supposed to be dog lovers. Check some threads where 90% of posters have said "go to your vet", and think about why that advice was offered by members who probably did have the answers.

That would be great if you get a reply back Jed. Thanks for that.

[casowner]

The other breeder that lost all of those pups after vaccination was MyDogsR4Life

[Tibbiemax71]

Hi Minky, I am so sorry for the loss of your babies The info I was given by my breeder was to vaccinate with the C3 only, as she had a puppy who had a bad reaction to a C5, as far as I can remember her saying the puppy started having breathing problems soon after the Vacc and she had to rush it back to the vet, the other info I have is not to use the "Protec" brand as Tibbies are known to have a reaction to this, in saying this though, my Tibbies have been Vaccinated by my vet who uses Protec, it wasn't their first Vacc though. I did tell my vet about the Protec brand and she contacted the company and said there were no cases of Tibbies having a reaction to it, so basically talked me into Vaccinating with it and I trust her so I did.

What brand were your puppy's Vaccinated with?

I will be seeing my breeder this weekend and will ask her more about it, I am planning on breeding my first litter soon, I will get my baby's vacced with the brand that my breeder says, even if my vet says Protec is ok, I will use another vet if I have to.

Again so sorry for your losses, it must be devastating

[Jed]

Yep, chlorine bleach. Minky, F10 is fine. Vets use a few different things and they al work.

I thought show people only called you a pf if you beat them with something home bred?

Edited November 26, 2009 by Jed