Ptolomy Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) I haven't read all the suggestions but my first thought would be to just do it informallly and ask for a drop with hand signal and throw food to her left side. Bit like the 2 food game but keep throwing to the opposite side she drops and ask for quick ones only. Keep it upbeat and fun....even use the i squeak UM Caffy - come training on Monday and show me I have been doing this - but Rome wasn't built in a day - I have 3 years of bad training to undo and I want it fixed NOW ;) and its just not happening fast enough Edited November 22, 2009 by Ptolomy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casima Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Hey Casima - thanks for the suggestions. I have to confess for I have sinned - I have never taught any of my dogs to target So are you suggesting a piece of carpet or something similar and if she drops off the carpet then I give a NRM? And then the idea being to gradually make the carpet smaller and smaller taking it to all different locations. Hmm if it is then I think it could work!!!! Yep thats the idea, although the target doesn't have to big enough to fit the whole dog on, infact probably better if it isn't as the criteria for performance would change once it got too small for the dog to lie on. I used a green face washer for one of mine and he would position himself so that the target was between his front legs when he dropped, then folded it smaller, but it would be better if you could use some cloth or something that can be then cut up (green shopping bag material works well if you have an old one that you don't mind ruining) Also once the target is quite small you can start to cover it over with some grass to help eliminate it completly. When still in the shaping phase, if the dog dropped in the wrong spot I tended to just wait them out, once they didn't get rewarded you could see the little wheels turning in their head as to what they should be doing, and after alittle while they would look over and see the target and move to it. However for obedience dogs perhaps that might play havoc with their stay training, so a NRM and a reset might suit you better? I guess it depends on how much shaping experience you and your dogs have and if they will differenciate breaking their offered down to breaking an actual stay. As for your sit stays problem - most dogs have issues with their front feet not their back ones. Have you had the dog checked to make sure that she isn't sore while sitting?To teach stays both stand and sit we play the steady feet game - so with the dog in a sit - we bring a bit of food towards the dogs face and if it moves then the food goes away - so we are almost tempting the dog to move and when it does the food goes away. Then we bring the food in at all diffent angles, heights and speeds, we then progress to dropping food and once again if the dog moves we step on the food and it can't get it. Its amazing how fast the dog learns that to get the reward the dog must stay still. Its my guess that if there are no issues soreness wise your dog doesn't understand that sit stays means keep you bum on the ground and don't move, so perhaps the above exercise might make it clearer to the dog. A question for you.....I am not sure what stage of agility you are up to - but if you are doing sequencing - if you leave your dog at the start line in a sit - does the dog lift its backside, wriggle or move??? Sorry it is her Stand stays that are the problem sit stays are fine. For agility we have been using sits so we don't practise bad stands. I will try your steady feet game in a stand and see how we go, perhaps I am subconsiously wanting her to stay too much and I need to test her some more. Thanks ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffy Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I haven't read all the suggestions but my first thought would be to just do it informallly and ask for a drop with hand signal and throw food to her left side. Bit like the 2 food game but keep throwing to the opposite side she drops and ask for quick ones only. Keep it upbeat and fun....even use the i squeak ;) UM Caffy - come training on Monday and show me I have been doing this - but Rome wasn't built in a day - I have 3 years of bad training to undo and I want it fixed NOW and its just not happening fast enough I shall try and get there...maybe you can fix Snazzy's stands...he steps to his left! It's just a little step but you know me...gotta have it perfect!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) I shall try and get there...maybe you can fix Snazzy's stands...he steps to his left! It's just a little step but you know me...gotta have it perfect!! Hey we could have a doggy dancing routine at this rate - a step to the right by beans and a step to the left by Snaz - sounds like the hokey pokey Edited November 22, 2009 by Ptolomy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I shall try and get there...maybe you can fix Snazzy's stands...he steps to his left! It's just a little step but you know me...gotta have it perfect!! Hey we could have a doggy dancing routine at this rate - a step to the right by beans and a step to the left by Snaz - sounds like the hokey pokey Ruby can join in with the shake it all about bit ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 pip - does you dog carry anything around in her mouth at all eg a toy??? and have you tried asking her to hold anything else other than a db?Is your db wood or plastic? - I guess this question should go to dogdude as well - have you tried a different sort of dumbbell? Dumbell is wood, and haven't tried plastic with her. I've tried a rolled up face cloth (thinking something soft might be easier) but it also went flying across the room. She doesn't naturally carry much in her mouth. She's probably about 4y/o now and doesn't play much with toys anymore. I haven't tried getting her to hold any of her old toys, as I thought she might associate them with playing, and more likely to launch them. Someone suggested getting to the dumbell before she launches it... sorry, I'm not that fast... you have about 1/2 a nanosecond before it goes flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 pip - any chance of getting what happens on video and posting it so we can have a look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Not sure how doggie is getting the chance to launch the object, at that stage I had my hands really close to the dumb bell and didn't actually let go of it for a while (mainly because I didn't want the banging their teeth when they just opened their mouths). I would be controlling the dumb bell until doggie was happy to sit and hold it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 pip - any chance of getting what happens on video and posting it so we can have a look? Sorry, cannot do video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 Since I might as well post a problem into this thread - any ideas on getting attention at the start peg. The dog can be paying perfect attention outside the ring and the moment we go into the ring she starts to sticky beak around and every time we go back to the peg between exercises its the same. Its almost become a cue to switch off if you like. Any takers on what to try for this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Yep. I just make my watch/drive noise when on the way to the peg or at the peg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 Yep. I just make my watch/drive noise when on the way to the peg or at the peg. Can you explain what drive noise is please. And if your dog got to the start post and switched off - any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) Yep can you explain more JulesP. The dog has good attention until the judge says are you ready and then the dog seems to decide to go nah I am going to look at what is happening elsewhere. I have tried conditioning a word to have her pay attention but its not working for me. Edited November 22, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 It is a whoosing noise. Long story and involves sheep but it puts her into drive. If I arrive at the start post and she is away with the fairies (which doesn't happen often) I reposition her. Also try and use my answer to the judges "Are you ready?" as a signal for attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Ness do you use a marker word? Mine is 'yes' so just saying yes to the judge tends to get their attention. If they are in drive then they shouldn't drop out that soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Since I might as well post a problem into this thread - any ideas on getting attention at the start peg. The dog can be paying perfect attention outside the ring and the moment we go into the ring she starts to sticky beak around and every time we go back to the peg between exercises its the same. Its almost become a cue to switch off if you like. Any takers on what to try for this one? Okay, total newbie here, with many of her own problems! But, what happens if you leave the ring if she isn't paying attention? I'm assuming that she wants to work, or finds work rewarding (???) so wouldn't you be taking away an opportunity to earn a reward by leaving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) Yep I do use a marker word but it has little impact in that situation and yes pip that is what I am doing at training when she doesn't pay attention - sort of. Only sort of as the club we train at doesn't understand that approach to training and suggest you make them cooperate. She isn't as bad at training as she is in a trial. Part of the issue at a trial is the lack of reinforcement whereas at a training at least she is being rewarded so I don't tend to get the drop off in attention. Edited November 23, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natsu chan Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I'm not as experienced in the ring as the rest of you so I'm not sure if I should be saying anything really. Is this Ness, Ness? Koori's a sticky beak too, she gets in the ring and decides she has everyones attention so now she needs to wave to her loyal subjects. She's funny animal. I've taken to doing a full 360 spin in training if she doesn't pay attention at 'working' and that's helped. Not sure you could use it in the ring but I use a slightly higher sharper tone and I can see her little brain going "oh! she's about to do that again" which usually lasts long enough for the judge to get to forward. Ptolomy, is it Beans that has the injury niggles? Koori started stepping to the side in COP when her back was twinging (she has on going issues with it from an old injury) so I stopping training it until it settled down but it could easily have become a habit. She'll still drop crooked in COP or the heel work if it's niggling a bit more than usual but it goes once the niggling does. If you were inadvertently rewarding her, she may have come to the conclusion that stepping to the side is part of the exercise? In which case you have to back track and retrain, well I would anyway. I don't know about the dumbbell issues, I always teach hold other wise the collies tend to just drop them. If they know hold you can just preempt things such as rolling and throwing by saying hold the split second before they do it then taking the dumbbell and rewarding, there's a bit of timing involved and you need to be quick but like most things you can then build up the length of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Yep NC this is Ness - she is evil and a bitch . I usually tap her on the head and say earth to Ness - sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Just frustrates me that she can be on 110% and really "up" just seconds before we go into the ring and then switch off just as quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 I'm with you pip - I would be marking it and putting the dog away - but it gets very expensive if you do this at each trial. I would also only be doing this with a dog who knows what is required but is choosing not to play the game. There seems to be a pattern here if the dog manages OK at training but is inattentive at a trial. Are you using or luring with food in training in order to get the dog to pay attention and then not doing this at a trial. Are there more distractions at a trial, which the dog can't cope with? So any training suggestions for helping attention at the start post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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