Obedience Troubleshooting

[dogdude]

And a further question, in light of the fact I have my baby entered in her first trial today fortnight (not obedience) what routines to people have in place for pre-ring and after they have finished. She hasn't really got an established pattern yet as we haven't done enough work in a ring setting for me to have worked out what works and what doesn't.

Well, previous to now, I have triallied a low to medium drive dog, and I have always found that by sparking him up with a bit of cooked steak and about 20 seconds of static turn work just before we enter the ring, helped with short term motivation.

At Brydees first trial the other night, I couldn't stop myself from doing the same using her drive toy, but I know I didn't really need it at all, as we have already successfully put in the endurance work in training, without using prior kickstarting methods.

Oscar always prefered to see the colour of your money, before he really switched on. Its something that I really want to work on over the break.

[ness]

Kenzie gets plenty of informal training sessions where I will just ask her to work and she readily kicks in and throws 200% back at me. I just don't know what she will do in a strange environment. Its already a big ask on her with her temperament and the fact we are going interstate to compete. It could all end up a disaster but I am hoping I will have something to take away from it.

[ness]

Ooops suppose to be thinks not things . Sorry for the typo and lack of proof reading. Not sure I will ask her and find out .

As for Ptolomy's questions -

Ness yep she certainly knows what a jackpot is . Kenzie well I use less food with her, only recently do I use more food and its mostly games and toys - she doesn't actually know what a jackpot is but then I also don't tend to use them with her anyway.

As for the age/stage of training question - hmmm if I had a really super food motivated dog but one that was lower in drive I would probably introduce the concept of a jackpot once the dog understood the requirements of a particular exercise.

Personally in my training Kenzie will probably never get introduced to the concept of a jackpot because I don't think its really needed unless I found down the track the drive starts to drop off. It sort of comes back to Dogdude's comment re Sue's post. I guess what Sue is trying to say (and this is my view not hers) is that what the dog is doing should get the transfer of value from the "Reward - food or toy" so the dog is then find being given the opportunity to work the reward. Does that make any sense or have I just confused it further.

[dogdude]

At what point in setting up for the COP did you realise that your head turn was causing the issue? I am guessing people watching from outside the ring would have wondered what the hell you were doing - linning your dog up again and again. How will you deal with the judge standing to the side next trial?

Just when the camera cut out, I answered the judge without looking sideways, and it worked. For some reason, the camera was cutting out every minute or so, and the person I had asked to film me didn't know the camera. It must have been on the wrong setting or something.

Most of the heelwork was missed.

For some reason we actually lost 3 points for that recall. Can't see anything obvious, and she left the mark bang on command. I was a bit nervy after being away for a long time. She ended up with a 192.

After all that messing about with the COP, she ended up scoring full points for it.

The heeling was ok, although she was a little too reved up, and was ocasionally jumping into position, instead of using her backend smoothly. She also sat on a 45 degree angle to me on one occasion, which has not been a feature in her training before.

The next trial (next weekend at Croydon) doesn't give me much time to work on the COP problem, but I will definately not look to the judge when I am asked about being ready.

[Starkehre]

Er does retire her sound like a plan . Thats not strictly true Ptolomy she can do it at training without food, she has done it at trials too I have videos to show she can be really switched on and remain switched on .

Hi guys, I am only trialling one bitch at the moment and still at a very low level, but have come back into obedience after being out for many years doing agility and conformation, so feel that I am probably a little under qualified to make suggestions..... but if I may, I will tell you what I do with my bitch to keep her in drive.

I train her with a remote reward only. I used to use food in hand whilst heeling etc, but it got to the point where I could not put it down or we lost all drive.

So, we started with very small session, remote reward must be substantial (i use a chicken wing for my Rotti). I switch her into drive with"gunna work" and showing her the remote, then I put it down nearby, she knows it's there. We hurry over to our imaginery post, she is watching me as she is waiting to be released to her remote reward. We started with small heeling pattern, mark with "yes", the release to remote. She scoffs it, we roll and play, then finished.

Each day I would work it up a bit... more exercises, remote further away, not even showing the remote (ie leaving it in the fridge and switching her on without it, but she still knows to race back home to the kitchen when released).

So, she stays in drive during entire test. She knows her remote is waiting back at camp outside the ring and she runs to get it when we leave the ring and I tell her "ok, go yummies".

What was really cute after our last trial... after we got home several hrs later, after all the socialising and packing up etc, we came into the house and she still bolted to the kitchen for her ezxtra remote... of course I gave her one cause that was OK. So, you can extend the drive and remote rewards as much as you need to. and of course if your dog isn't that driven by food, you use your primary motivator which might be a toy or rope or whatever.

Regarding the dog not giving you it's attention when waiting at the start post, when the judge says "are you ready" say "no". I do. If for any reason my dog has lost attention and is looking elsewhere, which is rare cause she is very keen to finish the exercise and get her reward, then I simply say "no", and do what I need to do to get my dog's attention.... like "watch" or "ready" then I say to the judge "yes". the judge will wait. they will not start til you tell them you are ready.

[Starkehre]

However, I have to say that we have far more distractions in our trialling venues than there was in this clip

I don't see how that changes anything, if the dog is working well in drive distractions won't make much difference.

absolutely, what huski says, if your dog is trained and working in drive, then distractions are not an issue.

[dogdude]

So, we started with very small session, remote reward must be substantial (i use a chicken wing for my Rotti). I switch her into drive with"gunna work" and showing her the remote, then I put it down nearby, she knows it's there. We hurry over to our imaginery post, she is watching me as she is waiting to be released to her remote reward. We started with small heeling pattern, mark with "yes", the release to remote. She scoffs it, we roll and play, then finished.

This is the way I have trained my other dog Oscar, and I am about to make changes to it again. I don't like the fact that he needs to be swtched on by showing the reward. I feel I need to strengthen drive further, and get it to a stage where I dont have to show him that I have it in my posession, and is totally swiched on by command only.

I feel that you can only achieve this with a very driven dog.

Edited November 29, 2009 by dogdude

[gundoglover]

Since I might as well post a problem into this thread - any ideas on getting attention at the start peg. The dog can be paying perfect attention outside the ring and the moment we go into the ring she starts to sticky beak around and every time we go back to the peg between exercises its the same. Its almost become a cue to switch off if you like.

If you are using food as a reward, is it possible that she has learnt that start peg = no treats? If so, then practising in a mock trial situation with a start peg and where you can reward with food may help overcome the problem. You may also need to enlist the help of a mock judge giving commands to make it sufficiently realistic.

[Starkehre]

So, we started with very small session, remote reward must be substantial (i use a chicken wing for my Rotti). I switch her into drive with"gunna work" and showing her the remote, then I put it down nearby, she knows it's there. We hurry over to our imaginery post, she is watching me as she is waiting to be released to her remote reward. We started with small heeling pattern, mark with "yes", the release to remote. She scoffs it, we roll and play, then finished.

This is the wat i have trained my other dog Oscar, and I am about to make changes to it again. I don't like the fact that he needs to be swtched on by showing the reward. I feel I need to strengthen drive further, and get it to a stage where I dont have to show him that I have it in my posession, and is totally swiched on by command only.

I feel that you can only achieve this with a very driven dog.

That's great dogdude. I found with dyzney that she actually showd me herself that was ready to go to that level, before I thought she was ready.

I verbalised her drive switch, then before I needed to show her the motivator, she was leaning towards heading to the park, 3 doors away, so I let her trot me there, do the work, then trot me home to the fridge.

This is a 6.5 year old rotti that had almost absolutely no drive at all until I started training her in drive approx 12 months ago. Still then, I felt we were not achieving anything. she still did not seem to switch into drive at all, and when she did she was put off extremely easily. I could not get her to any work in drive at all. Anyway, I sort of gave up on her basically (as I had previously semi retired her anyway having already achieved 6 titles in other disciplines, had a litter of puppies and had just recoverd from a serious bout of IMT) and as I got a new pup and have spent the last 12 months training and worming on him.

Anyway, all my rotti friends were telling me to enter Dyzney into our restricted obedience trail, so I did. Well, she became lame as soon as I entered her (bruised toe) and that took her 3 weeks to get over, so in the last week leading up to the trial, we had done very little training, and I felt it was going to be a joke. She worked reasonably well in most areas except my nemesis.... heeling. I always had lack lustre heeling dogs, and that is why I decided to start doing the drive training with Steve Courtney from K9Force.

Anyway, 2 days out from the trial, I decided to give the remote reward another try, we had tried it previously, but she didn't get it, and didn't really care much, was still looking for food during training.

So, this time I used a chicken wing instead. Well, that is what did it. She cottoned on straight away, and as she is a big pig and easily driven with food (but I still would not call her a highly driven dog) it worked. So basically what I described in my previous post regarding the remote was all done in 2 days, and that was 2 trials ago and 4 weeks ago.

I have even used a chicken frame also. Dyzney will work beautifully and stay in drive, if the reward is good enough.

The only thing I found was in her first test she forged a little, and that was her anticipation to get the remote, but we have fixed that with toning down the drive switching before we go into the ring.

I am thrilled I have finally found my dog's button. It is great to be back into obedience, and it has taught me a lot. I have Steve to thank for my recent new obedience joy and CCD passes.

[dogdude]

Hi dyzney

I have found it hard to spend alot of time with Oscar, simply because of the difference in drive levels compared to my other dog. I really owe it to him, because he did get his Novice title in 3 goes, each with a H.I.T score. He had 2 attempts at Open so far, scoring highly up until the distance control, where he NQed for not going down.

He had all of last year off, while I was training the pup, so next year will be his.

[Starkehre]

Hi dyzney

I have found it hard to spend alot of time with Oscar, simply because of the difference in drive levels compared to my other dog. I really owe it to him, because he did get his Novice title in 3 goes, each with a H.I.T score. He had 2 attempts at Open so far, scoring highly up until the distance control, where he NQed for not going down.

He had all of last year off, while I was training the pup, so next year will be his.

Good on ya dogdude. Yes, next year will be the one.

You know, I always feel like I never spend a heck of a lot of time training, not nearly as much as I would like to, but it is all about quality training, not quantity... only perfect practice makes perfect. :D

Go Oscar.

I need one more CCD pass, and hope to have Dyzney's novice title also next year, and be woprking on Open, so we will see how we go.

with training and showing Jag at the same time it is always a bit of a juggle. I would also love to be starting trialling Jag next year too, but we will just have to wait and see.

[Ptolomy]

Since I might as well post a problem into this thread - any ideas on getting attention at the start peg. The dog can be paying perfect attention outside the ring and the moment we go into the ring she starts to sticky beak around and every time we go back to the peg between exercises its the same. Its almost become a cue to switch off if you like.

If you are using food as a reward, is it possible that she has learnt that start peg = no treats? If so, then practising in a mock trial situation with a start peg and where you can reward with food may help overcome the problem. You may also need to enlist the help of a mock judge giving commands to make it sufficiently realistic.

IMO Very possible gundoglover

Training is probably the better place to start - aiming for attention every time they line up at the start post

[ness]

Except its not entirely that as some days she comes out firing and I have her attention 200%. I did instigate lots of attention at the peg but the moment she knows there is food to be rewarded with it defeats the purpose as she is then impossible to lose. Once she has had a bit of food in a training session she knows there is a reward available and therefore doesn't lose attention at the peg.

[dogdude]

Once she has had a bit of food in a training session she knows there is a reward available and therefore doesn't lose attention at the peg.

This is the very reason I moved to sending to a remote target. Oscar was then working for the food bag outside the ring. I had to do a bit of work on endurance too.

[Ptolomy]

Except its not entirely that as some days she comes out firing and I have her attention 200%. I did instigate lots of attention at the peg but the moment she knows there is food to be rewarded with it defeats the purpose as she is then impossible to lose. Once she has had a bit of food in a training session she knows there is a reward available and therefore doesn't lose attention at the peg.

So your training sessions last less than 30 seconds and consist of you putting a start peg out, walking her up to the start peg remvoing the lead, getting the attention and jackpotting......

training session over - or go and work on sendaways, or dumbbell or scent....

[ness]

I did that for a month or so at different places, I would drive somewhere with a peg put peg up get her out jackpot, put her back in the car and go somewhere else but didn't get a carry over to more formal training .

[Tiggy]

Has anyone else had a dog that whines in the stays? Banjo doesn't do it at home but when we were training at a club he use to whine and if you know Staffords they can really scream :D . I'll be taking him back to the club next year to start proofing before we trial so I'll have to work on it then but he also does it if when I'm waiting with him when my Dad goes out of sight into a shop or whatever. So I'll have to teach him 'quiet' and then 'stay' means quiet without me saying quiet for trials .

[Ptolomy]

Has anyone else had a dog that whines in the stays? Banjo doesn't do it at home but when we were training at a club he use to whine and if you know Staffords they can really scream :D . I'll be taking him back to the club next year to start proofing before we trial so I'll have to work on it then but he also does it if when I'm waiting with him when my Dad goes out of sight into a shop or whatever. So I'll have to teach him 'quiet' and then 'stay' means quiet without me saying quiet for trials .

Tiggy - out of interest does he whine during other exercises or between exercises?

Do you think it is related to nothing happening, you leaving him, or the other dogs?

[Tiggy]

It's just the stays. I think he whines because nothings happening(he's very impatient) and me leaving him. I don't think it's anything to do with the other dogs because he's not very interested in other dogs.

[huski]

It's just the stays. I think he whines because nothings happening(he's very impatient) and me leaving him. I don't think it's anything to do with the other dogs because he's not very interested in other dogs.

I have had a similar problem with Daisy barking during stays. What do you do when he barks? I have been giving a NRM so she learns that barking = no opportunity to earn a reward.