Eliteview Aussies Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 So I've decided after tonight that I need to retrain my heeling with my Golden. I just don't know anymore if he is just being naughty or just doesnt understand what I want so I figure retraining him might be the way to go. BUT I need help. At the moment he isn't heeling at all and Leopuppy I'm sure can vouch for that after tonight. He is just either distracted or doesn't understand what I want. SOOOO how would I go about starting from the start? How do other people start?? I would love to help but first - any chance of seeing some video of where he is at now??? What level of obedience are we looking at :p Sorry, he is in Novice. So off lead heeling. No video. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Melody - this is not easy as you have given very little information about your dog, how he has been trained and what it is exactly that you don't like. Some questions.... Do you train at a club How or what do you use for rewards have you ever played start post focus games Does the dog lag and is this what you don;t like Is the dog inattentive around distractions Do you use a clicker How old is your goldie Does he know any tricks like spins, hand touches, play bows How often do you train Just some questions that might help others with suggestions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Hi Melody I caught some of your trial. What most of us do starting off is purely train motivation and focus. Once you have those key ingredients, the rest is just fine tuning. You cant get strong focus without strong motivation, You cant get great heelwork minus either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffy Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 In the COP (change of positions) I give the down signal and she takes a huge step to her right and then drops. She has always done this. If I stand her next to a post or a cone then it doesn't happen, but usually in a trial you don't get the chance to use a post or a cone and it usually costs us a couple of points. Any suggestions on how to cure this ......please Are the drops cured??? Hope you've been doing your homework :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Are the drops cured??? Hope you've been doing your homework :p Hmm - the drops took a bit of a decline again last night BUT - we did fix the box issue As I am always saying....... Its another work in progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Hi MelodyI caught some of your trial. What most of us do starting off is purely train motivation and focus. Once you have those key ingredients, the rest is just fine tuning. You cant get strong focus without strong motivation, You cant get great heelwork minus either. Dogdude - are you happy to share some suggestions on training motivation and focus? :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I know Caffy has some good ideas on motivation . So come on join in the discussion and yes you to dogdude would be keen to hear other ideas . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliteview Aussies Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Melody - this is not easy as you have given very little information about your dog, how he has been trained and what it is exactly that you don't like.Some questions.... Do you train at a club How or what do you use for rewards have you ever played start post focus games Does the dog lag and is this what you don;t like Is the dog inattentive around distractions Do you use a clicker How old is your goldie Does he know any tricks like spins, hand touches, play bows How often do you train Just some questions that might help others with suggestions I train at a club but not a very helpful one sometimes. I use food for rewards, he is a bit of a guts! Played that WHAT game?? Yes the dog lags and is inattentive. I don't use a clicker, I feel I"m not co-ordinated enough. He just turned 4 but a very immature 4. He gives me high five and can spin and roll over. Train most Sat's and I try to train at least once during the week but now daylight savings is here I will be able to get out after work more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliteview Aussies Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Hi MelodyI caught some of your trial. What most of us do starting off is purely train motivation and focus. Once you have those key ingredients, the rest is just fine tuning. You cant get strong focus without strong motivation, You cant get great heelwork minus either. Dogdude - are you happy to share some suggestions on training motivation and focus? As Ptolomy said, can you please share some suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Sorry, got home quite late after the trial last night, no time to elaborate. I guess everybodys holy grail is to work out what motivates their dog the most effectively, and every dog is different. If prey drive is strong in your dog, then you need to nurture it from the youngest age possible, and expand on it. Most drives can be enhanced by not making it easy to satisfy, using a little frustration, but in a carefully balanced way. If you teach your dog manners at dinner time, using the dogs self control (like waiting for the eat command), then the dog learns to lower its drive in order to get it. Then we turn around and ask for the opposite in a training situation. If the food was made a little harder to get, the dog would put more value on it, like in TOT. I guess you could also try adding a little prey drive into the equasion, like the two food game etc. With my prey drive training, I also only release when the dog is showing maximum effort (displaying high drive), which also helps with maintaining the drive. I also do specific drive building with a long lead, harness and tuggie, secured to a bike tube or springy fence. Not saying you should go out and use this specific method, but you can use you imagination to design something that would suit you own dog. I often see people use tuggies, as just that. If you make it more about the chase of the item, than the catch of the item, then you will put more value on it, because its harder to get. If you feed most dogs before training, then naturally the drive for it will be lower. Many triallers specifically train drive promotion sepperately. What do you do Ptolomy? Leopuppy? Ness, Edited November 25, 2009 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Thanks dogdude - hope your girl worked well for you last night - sounds like you had one heck of a day. I'm interested in what others do too. I've just been outside with Zig - it's taken months of false starts but he was tugging like a fiend in between some really bouncy heeling. I might try your idea, dd, of doing less of the tug and more of the chase as that's how I got him interested in the first place. Our current problem is that he often can't offer that same level of drive in public - at familiar training grounds I've built it up but it takes weeks. Yesterday at the park I tried click/treat when he was tugging at his strongest - not sure if that's the right approach but it was so hard to get anything from him! He's a tough dog to motivate as, being a rather typical Dalmatian, he's like "Meh! Take it or leave it. I'll go without and have a piss instead" He's not good with pressure and shuts down very quickly - I have to be very careful with NRM. I'm enjoying this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Thanks dogdude - hope your girl worked well for you last night - sounds like you had one heck of a day.I'm interested in what others do too. I've just been outside with Zig - it's taken months of false starts but he was tugging like a fiend in between some really bouncy heeling. I might try your idea, dd, of doing less of the tug and more of the chase as that's how I got him interested in the first place. Our current problem is that he often can't offer that same level of drive in public - at familiar training grounds I've built it up but it takes weeks. Yesterday at the park I tried click/treat when he was tugging at his strongest - not sure if that's the right approach but it was so hard to get anything from him! He's a tough dog to motivate as, being a rather typical Dalmatian, he's like "Meh! Take it or leave it. I'll go without and have a piss instead" He's not good with pressure and shuts down very quickly - I have to be very careful with NRM. I'm enjoying this thread I agree with DD that the fun is in the chase as opposed to the capture Is he more food than prey motivated normally TSD? With Daisy I hold food in my hand and get her to chase it not unlike you would a prey item, as a way of building her drive. I found even with food that eventually, it became more about the chase than it did about actually eating the food and a few occasions she would cough the food back up (she doesn't chew before she swallows... typical beagle) and leave it there as the adrenaline rush she got was part of the reward too. Now I find I can switch her on without needing to get her to chase the food, just by using the same command word I did before to let her know that we are about to start training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) He is food driven, huski, and it's what I use most but I'd like to develop the other side of him as he gets bored of food types very quickly and has to be VERY hungry for it to be a motivator. The problem is it's hard to fast him because he drops weight very quickly - I think he's still filling out as he comes from late-maturing lines. It's also probably not a great time of year to be trying too much new stuff as he fades out badly if the weather is slightly warm/muggy. Edited November 25, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 With Daisy I hold food in my hand and get her to chase it not unlike you would a prey item, as a way of building her drive. I thought you guys must have used a method something like this, as I saw Shoemonster use a different delivery method at FOO last year with her Eddy. I have never seen such strong food drive in a dog. I had one small peice of cabana in my pocket, and he started ripping off my pocket to get at it lol! I would sew spare pockets on my pants if I could get the same results out of Oscar! Thats one of my goals over the break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) With Daisy I hold food in my hand and get her to chase it not unlike you would a prey item, as a way of building her drive. I thought you guys must have used a method something like this, as I saw Shoemonster use a different delivery method at FOO last year with her Eddy. I have never seen such strong food drive in a dog. I had one small peice of cabana in my pocket, and he started ripping off my pocket to get at it lol! I would sew spare pockets on my pants if I could get the same results out of Oscar! Thats one of my goals over the break. Haha! I made cup cakes last night and they were in those little paper patty cake wrappers. Mum had one today and left the wrapper on the counter, scrunched up. She heard Daisy going absolutely NUTS in the kitchen, almost like she was screaming hysterically, barking and carrying on. Mum thought there must have been meat on the counter or food stuck somewhere, or the cat was on the shelf and Daisy was telling her off - nope, she was going nuts over the wrapper, she loves sweet food, it was like she was the devil I've seen some of Eddy's videos, he's amazing Edited November 25, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Dogdude I don't do a lot of specific drive building as such. Ness enjoys the 2 food game for obedience and I suppose I incorporate that occasionally into my training. Kenzie I have spent time since she was 8 weeks making sure whatever we do is rewarding so I suppose that is a form of drive training. I have spent a lot of time asking for behaviors without necessary having a reward on me and so she she is able to switch on and play with absolutely everything and nothing. But she is highly prey driven - loves her toys and more importantly loves playing and interacting with me with her toys. I can quite easily take any of her toys that she might have around the place and get her into the same level of drive. If I have nothing she is just as quick to comply so what might be available as a reward never enters the equation. Sometimes we will use food but only recently as she decided that food is something she can be trained with rather than a necessity in order to live. Not sure that really answers the question but I knew when I got Kenzie that I didn't want a dog that had a whats in it for me attitude and I wanted the behaviors themselves to become self reinforcing so I spent lots of time when she was little building the attitude I wanted . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) That's interesting Ness! I always like to hear about the different things other people do. There's no way I would have ever gotten Daisy to the point she is now without training in food drive She doesn't need to see that I have food to switch into drive, as she responds to our command word (ready to work). But then again considering she does have quite a high food drive I'd be silly not to utilise it! I think to some point all dogs will have a 'whats in it for me' attitude in that they wouldn't enjoy anything that they didn't find rewarding. Edited November 25, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Shoey/huski/dd - can you describe exactly what you do with the dog chasing the food in the hand please? What I'm after is context and timing - I think it might work with Zig but I don't want to stuff it up like I've stuffed up everything else with the poor dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I'm still learning about training in drive so some of this goes straight over my head but Banjo's food drive is a big . I actually have a dog that loves to work. Today I could barely get out the door as he was jumping up ready to work. Slightly off topic how many people keep a training journal? I started jotting down my thoughts after training yesterday and it was good to read it before training today just to recap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Shoey/huski/dd - can you describe exactly what you do with the dog chasing the food in the hand please? What I'm after is context and timing - I think it might work with Zig but I don't want to stuff it up like I've stuffed up everything else with the poor dog To start with all I did was put my hand out and encourage Daisy to 'get it, get it' while moving my hand away as she lunged for the food. To give you an idea (please excuse our terrible videos, I'm sure Shoey has many better ones than I do!) - this was when I started introducing commands into the game. Initially I would keep the game to under a minute (stopping when the dog was really getting into it to leave them frustrated) with no commands bar getting Daisy excited and chasing the food (as well as building the 'ready to work' command). http://www.youtube.com/user/becandmicha#p/u/9/2QDuv4bJzT4 ETA: you can see how easily distracted she would get by scents! She's much better now! Edited November 25, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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