Seita Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Ok got a problem - anybody got any ideas on crabbing heelwork. My youngster really struggles to keep her backend in when heeling in a straight line. In fact its almost as though she is pushing me to walk in the direction she wants to. This is despite lots of work on rear end awareness type exercises. She is better then she use to be but its particularly evident on her stands when she comes forward and squiffy. Anybody got any ideas on this one? I get this sometime too... I tend to slow the heel work right down to a very very slow pace and hesitate on every step so the dog really needs to think about where they are in relation to my left leg. I find at this really slow speed Ella adjusts herself and straightens her rear out. I find I get this problem if I'm carrying her tug (which isn't often and obviously never in trials) or if I haven't trained much heel work in a while! Ok I have a problem - sort of! It's with stand stays and stand for exams etc, she tends to stand a bit crooked with her bum behind me rather in a straight line behind me. No matter what footwork I use to stop for the stand she seems to always do this. I've never been penalised for it but I just don't like it, it looks messy!!! My other issue still in relation to the stands is when we come to a stop she nearly ALWAYS stops with one front foot back, I tend to hesitate when the judge tells me to leave the dog before I get her the stay command and sometimes she does bring that foot back up. But most of the time just as I give the stay command or as I leave her she brings that foot up in line with the other front foot - obviously loosing a point! She stays rock solid for the rest of the stay after that!!! I need to teach her to stand square, any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Have you taught a kick back stand Seita?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Have pmed you on my thoughts Ness. Have to run. Got a funeral and a trial to go to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Have you taught a kick back stand Seita?? probably not seeing as I'm not sure what this is! I've taught her to stop in a stand beside me with her front in line with my legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Hmm I probably can't explain it very well since I can't get Kenzie doing it exactly how I want. Ptolomy hopefully will come in and post as her kids have nice stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Not Ptolomy - obviously - but as I understand it, the kick back stand is the stand (e.g. from a sit) where the front legs remain stationary and the back legs kick back out from underneath - so the dog doesn't come forward to stand. Seita - one thing I could think of trying is using oppositional reflex to get Elka to straighten herself - pressure from your hand on the outside of her body should theoretically get her to move into that pressure, then you could mark and reward that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Tough day at the office but very quickly - Seita - what is your stand signal? Mine is with my left hand palm downwards immediately above my dogs head. If I give my signal a little further out from my body it usually straightens the dog up. This wont help if yours is with your right hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) ok thanks Tassie! I now understand the kick back stand when asking the dog to stand from another position as you would in UDX - I have trained this from a sit or a drop. But how does one train this in heelwork when you are moving? Tassie - thanks for the suggestion, my method at the moment is to lure/guide via slow heeling into the correct position and only reward the correct stands. My issue with doing what you suggest is that it sort of forms a double command - I give command, dog stops in wrong position, I cause her to move into the right position and she gets rewarded. I try not do to that sort of thing - it's very similar to what dogdude was saying about the front position in relation to someone else's problem. Ptolomy - my stand signal is left hand across in front of the dogs face - the "traditional" command I guess. I could play with signals to see if that helps the way she stops. Edited November 24, 2009 by Seita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Hmm have a look at anything from the US/UK re teaching a stand on the move. Its sort of part of the UDX PIM and also I think the UD SFE in the US is a moving stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 You're right, Seita - yes it is a double command - so I wouldn't be doing it in the context of heelwork or a whole exercise - just as a kind of stand alone thing. Just so that her muscle memory is built up for the kind of stand you want . (Just an idea from watching an English dvd that uses this to get the correct position for the dog relative to the handler.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Seita - have been thinking about your stand problem/s Something for you to try - heel along in normal pace and give a verbal stand signal only (so no hand signal) and let me know what happens in relation to her body position and also what her feet are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Seita - have been thinking about your stand problem/sSomething for you to try - heel along in normal pace and give a verbal stand signal only (so no hand signal) and let me know what happens in relation to her body position and also what her feet are doing. Same outcome as with the signal. She just always stops with one front foot placed back which obviously isn't comfortable for a stay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Seita - have been thinking about your stand problem/sSomething for you to try - heel along in normal pace and give a verbal stand signal only (so no hand signal) and let me know what happens in relation to her body position and also what her feet are doing. Same outcome as with the signal. She just always stops with one front foot placed back which obviously isn't comfortable for a stay! and her body position??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Well I just want to report back in - I wasn't going to do any UD with Ness tonight but since they had already put my name on the list I decided at the last minute to go in. I decided to not warm her up with treats. We did play a bit before going in the ring but no bribing. She was a bit distracted at the peg but not enough that when I asked her to focus she did. She got through her seekback heelwork successfully. Went off found the article, nice present and a good finish. Went up to line her up for Directed Jumping. She completed 2 lots of that successfully so I decided I'd jackpot her. The original intention was also to go do gloves but I figured 2 exercises completed was enough. As for Kenzie - all I can say is OMG can my little girl work. Her heelwork was still very very crabby. But the rest of it was breath stopping and I so want to bottle every last moment of it. Her recall and retrieve were both lightening fast. I have always known she can but she has always been timid and slowed right up at training - not tonight. Her SFE was rock solid. Sorry not really obedience troubleshooting but I have had many sleepless nights wondering whether I was doing the right thing with my baby girl and whether I shouldn't just retire her before she has even started but nope Kenzie hopefully is the 190 dog of my dreams - now to get that heelwork under control. Interesting her stands were all 100% straight tonight and I dropped my shitty hand signal and just opted for a verbal as a bit of an experiment after Ptolomy's comment to Seita and my stands were all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Seita - have been thinking about your stand problem/sSomething for you to try - heel along in normal pace and give a verbal stand signal only (so no hand signal) and let me know what happens in relation to her body position and also what her feet are doing. Same outcome as with the signal. She just always stops with one front foot placed back which obviously isn't comfortable for a stay! and her body position??? reasonably straight actually, but I was working inside and wasn't quite at my normal pace. I did play around with hand signals as well so instead of sweeping my hand across in front of her I simple held it out in front on her face, palm facing her and fingers pointing down.... not sure if it made a difference but will play with the idea some more tomorrow. I also played around with footwork to try and correct how she stops and found that a certain type of footwork actually improved the way she stopped, again I will play some more with these ideas. ETA - that's awesome news for you Ness!! Here's hoping that Kenzie turns out to be the competition dog that you were hoping for!! Edited November 24, 2009 by Seita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Yep but she needs to learn to not heel me in a crooked line . Figure 8 - erm yep with only a cone there it was even worse then normal cos she wanted to push me off my line. Oh and if anybody has any sensible ideas on dogs who like to sticky beak on RAT I am all ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliteview Aussies Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 So I've decided after tonight that I need to retrain my heeling with my Golden. I just don't know anymore if he is just being naughty or just doesnt understand what I want so I figure retraining him might be the way to go. BUT I need help. At the moment he isn't heeling at all and Leopuppy I'm sure can vouch for that after tonight. He is just either distracted or doesn't understand what I want. SOOOO how would I go about starting from the start? How do other people start?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 So I've decided after tonight that I need to retrain my heeling with my Golden. I just don't know anymore if he is just being naughty or just doesnt understand what I want so I figure retraining him might be the way to go. BUT I need help. At the moment he isn't heeling at all and Leopuppy I'm sure can vouch for that after tonight. He is just either distracted or doesn't understand what I want. SOOOO how would I go about starting from the start? How do other people start?? I would love to help but first - any chance of seeing some video of where he is at now??? What level of obedience are we looking at :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Yep but she needs to learn to not heel me in a crooked line :p . Figure 8 - erm yep with only a cone there it was even worse then normal cos she wanted to push me off my line. Oh and if anybody has any sensible ideas on dogs who like to sticky beak on RAT I am all ears. With your RAT - take a clicker and some food and break it down by clicking and treating in different spots. Also, are you cueing her into the turn by turning your head - or are you too busy looking at her to see what she is doing????? Even Cider at 4 1/2 months of age does lovely RAT's!!!! Edited November 24, 2009 by Ptolomy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Kenzie had lovely RATs I have broken them like I break everything else ;) . Not to self time to stop clicking and rewarding for sticky beaking at the environment ;) . ETA. Better get somebody onto videoing Cider I want to see her RATs ;) . Besides Cider is Dog 6 you should be a pro at teaching a RAT by now so I wouldn't expect anything less . Kenzie is only Dog 2 - how are Blaize's RATs :p . You know Ness's RAT still suck so why would I have managed to teach Kenzie decent ones :p . I can't say how our LAT are going cos the kind person putting us through managed to not give us any . Hmm probably to busy looking at where she is going - I still can't walk a straight line with her. . Edited November 24, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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