dogdude Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Balabanov uses the reward/item out in front, standing toward the dog, and holds it in both hands in a downward movement to the ground to get fast drops from a standing postition. He stands fairly close to the dog in the early learning stages. You could do this while playing your two food game. The problem with this though, is you have to teach the opposite in the Drop On Recall (dogs head should come upward to stop quicker). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Question Rivsky - Can Riv find front if you have your hands down by your side? Can he find front if you have treats in both hands and have him follow in a front position ala the Chris Bach dvd? Have you tried sitting in a chair with your legs in a v-shape and encouraging him in. There is a great bit of video explaining this on the Jo Hill Motivation dvd. She uses a goldie puppy to demo a front game to encourage the very close tight fronts that you find in UK obedience. How did you initially teach him the front position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Hi Rivsky Do you use NRMS? and what type of double signal do you use? An NRM and a guidance cue is ok, but if you make it almost two exercises (like taking another step back as most people seem to do) then I think the dog doesn't learn properly. What I do for any positional adjustments is use an NRM, then encourage the dog to move towards the correct position by leaning motions, then mark/release. You need to be quick to react though, so it continues to flow on with the same exercise. Your dog should then start to correct itself after a while, both in heel position and fronts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivsky Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Haven't tried having him find front position with hands down by my side - will give that and the chair a try too. He did struggle with the concept of following me in front position when I did try that one after watching the DVD. I wasn't intending on trialling him when he was taught to sit in front on a recall so think I just used to call him with food in my hands and he'd come in after the food Definitely not the ideal way to teach it and not surprising that it's all fallen apart now but he did used to have a pretty nice position but because he was so focused on the food I doubt he was actually thinking about what he was doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) If you want to borrow the Jo Hill dvd you know where to find it . The following in front position is actually off the CB dvds - I wonder if it might be addressed in more detail in the foundation dvds which I haven't watched yet . What might also help River is if you teach him to hold a slightly lower focal point then your face. It might me that in order for him to make eye contact given he is a small dog that he naturally wants to sit out further. If you teach him to focus on something lower it might bring him in closer as well. Edited November 24, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivsky Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Hi Dogdude yes he has a NRM. Double signal is usually me bending forward slightly but think this has actually made the problem worse - or I bend my knees or drop my head. So you'd use a NRM as they look like they're about to sit but before they actually do it? Edited November 24, 2009 by Rivsky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Another thought - you can tell me to butt out Rivsky but I probably wouldn't be using a second signal to get him in. I'd be using a NRM and breaking off and then trying again. But I'd only be doing this one you had retaught a front position. I might even go so far as to attach a "front" cue. I think you are aware that I have two seperate recall cues with both of mine. To them if they hear the command "front" they both know that they are going to have to come into a perfect front position and I will never interrupt that with anything else. So for a DOR in open I use "come" for the first part and "front" for the second part. My recall cue for COP in open is "front". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Hoping for some ideas and suggestions on fronts and presents please How did you teach them and do you think you're dog actually understands where the position is? Riv's fronts/presents have been bugging me for a while now and I know I'm a big part of the problem by giving him all sorts of double signals to get him into the correct position but thinking more about it I also don't believe he understands where "front" actually is - to me it seems like he's just randomly picking a spot somewhere in front of me and sitting. I've been doing a lot of the go through game from the Chris Bach stuff with him and the 2 food game into front position and scoot sit stuff which helps in that context but so far haven't been able to get it to carry over. Rivsky - what is it exactly that you don't like about Rivs fronts and finishes - the fact that they are squiffy, or too far away from you or both? What type of finish do you do??? Keep up the suggestions guys - I am sure we have all had issues with fronts and finishes - they are a continual work in progress as far as I am concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) If their bum is on the way down too far away, yes. I would give a quick, quiet NRM and rock back onto my heels, and draw my guiding hands further away in my lap. The key is to make it flow in the same exercise, so the dog is always concious about where it should be. Most people wait a good few seconds, then take a step back adding a further recall exercise onto the first. If the dog sits slightly left or right, use your hips, shoulders, knees and hands to twitch your dog into the correct position quickly.(without touching it) Make it a game of speed if you can, as the dog begins to understand what it needs to do. Edited November 24, 2009 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 oh Rivsky Ness better stop having words to Riv cos her DB front at the last trial was really really shitty . Oh and if anybody has any ideas on how to teach a finish to a dog who really doesn't have one yet I would be interested to hear. Trying to avoid issues of squiffiness before they start . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Ok got a problem - anybody got any ideas on crabbing heelwork. My youngster really struggles to keep her backend in when heeling in a straight line. In fact its almost as though she is pushing me to walk in the direction she wants to. This is despite lots of work on rear end awareness type exercises. She is better then she use to be but its particularly evident on her stands when she comes forward and squiffy. Anybody got any ideas on this one? Edited November 24, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivsky Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Rivsky - what is it exactly that you don't like about Rivs fronts and finishes - the fact that they are squiffy, or too far away from you or both?What type of finish do you do??? Main gripe about his fronts is how far away they are at the moment and hoping I may be able to possibly fix them both at the same time. He knows both finishes but only use the around the back one in trials. Thanks dogdude that makes sense now. I did try using 2 commands when teaching him the DOR but that threw him into a spin big time so gave up on that idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivsky Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Ok got a problem - anybody got any ideas on crabbing heelwork. My youngster really struggles to keep her backend in when heeling in a straight line. In fact its almost as though she is pushing me to walk in the direction she wants to. This is despite lots of work on rear end awareness type exercises. She is better then she use to be but its particularly evident on her stands when she comes forward and squiffy. Anybody got any ideas on this one? Did you try adjusting where you're holding your hand during heeling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) In what way did it throw him into a big spin?? ETA. Yeah I did Rivsky - hmmm and it has no impact on how hard the little devil likes to push me . The warm weather seemed to produce a nicer temporary cure but the moment its cooled off again she is back to her usual tricks . Was nice while it lasted. Edited November 24, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Ness, I would have thought we all have to work on Squiffiness issues in the learning stages? I dont think any one method is foolproof, or we all would be using them. IMO "squiffiness disappears with confidence and understanding. ETA I think most good finish methods start with rear end awareness. Edited November 24, 2009 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Hmmm dogdude its confidence that is the issue in my case and its having too much confidence. She just likes to really really push. If anything its getting worse not better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 ...I think you are aware that I have two seperate recall cues with both of mine. To them if they hear the command "front" they both know that they are going to have to come into a perfect front position and I will never interrupt that with anything else. So for a DOR in open I use "come" for the first part and "front" for the second part. My recall cue for COP in open is "front". I like that thinking, ness. Hadn't thought about that - and haven't really done much with the little big man yet - so I might do that. I discovered the other day when we were doing a little recall in class (on lead), that when I had my hands down in front of my legs (as I used to do with the other boys) he came in nicely, looked where my fingers were pointing, and dropped. Good boy for doing what I'd inadvertently told him to do with my hand position. Tried it again with hands held furhter up - perfect sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) got any iAnybody deas on this one? We may need vid footage to have a closer look? Most crabbing problems come from signtracking. There is a fair bit of info about it on your Balabanov dvd. Have you seen that segment? It often happens when you are concealing food or other rewards, and the dog doesn't have full self control regarding when it should be working compared to when drive satifaction is ok. With the method I use, the dog understands "out" and willingly accepts the command, in anticipation of another go. Her mind is reset on the required task, and she is not looking for an item or food to appear, or even a jackpot container. I often have to direct her to where I left her item, unless I pattern train her as in the change of postition. Edited November 24, 2009 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) dogdude - I just PMd you with the video link. Suppose I can post it here for anybody else. This is a heel round from club training the other week: And this is some homework set footage to see if we could work out what was going wrong and if it was something about me. Its me working her in the first two clips at normal and slow pace and then Rivsky handling her to see if that made any difference. Its been a while since I watched the Balabanov dvd. I have seen it but don't remember the exact segment your talking about. Edited November 24, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Oh Tassie - Winpara dogs came born with nice fronts so you don't have to worry to much about teaching them if Rory is anything like miss Kenzie . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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