ness Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) Ptolomy this is Ness we are talking about she is just evil and has lots of bad habits. Its certainly not level of distraction as same dog you can take outside a busy shopping centre and you can't lose her attention its just sometimes she can be bothered and sometimes she can't be. And at the moment I am getting more of the can't be bothered so two can play at this game and neither can I be bothered training her so she goes away and I play with her sister instead. ETA. What frustrates me is we have done plenty of work at it - I have set up a number of different distractions, dropping food, having full open containers of food on the start peg and she doesn't have any issue with those games and pays good attention and offers good attention. So I guess her issue is not that she can't its getting her to do it when I want her to rather than when it suits her. Edited November 23, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 Ptolomy this is Ness we are talking about she is just evil and has lots of bad habits. Its certainly not level of distraction as same dog you can take outside a busy shopping centre and you can't lose her attention its just sometimes she can be bothered and sometimes she can't be. And at the moment I am getting more of the can't be bothered so two can play at this game and neither can I be bothered training her so she goes away and I play with her sister instead. ETA. What frustrates me is we have done plenty of work at it - I have set up a number of different distractions, dropping food, having full open containers of food on the start peg and she doesn't have any issue with those games and pays good attention and offers good attention. So I guess her issue is not that she can't its getting her to do it when I want her to rather than when it suits her. Ness - this is where you are wrong - dropping food and having open food containers - this is a case of showing her that there is food on offer if she pays attention. The same with her paying attention outside the ring - its because you have food in your hand and you quicky feed it to her before you walk into the ring - so what you have taught her is the fact that outside the ring I have food and will give it to you - line up at the start post and you will get nothing. She is one smart girl of yours ;) Natsu Chan - thanks for your input So what can ness do to undo the behaviour chain that has been set up???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 She sure is - can I bottle it and put it to good use . Question is can one undo a behavior chain as solid as this one appears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natsu chan Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Yep Ness is smart. The thing with the herding breeds is that they are smart, but that the down side of that is that they don't like all this niggly repetitious make it perfect business. They get bored and start rolling their eyes at you. Borders are a bit higher drive than collies in general but they too need things tweaked to keep their interest. Koori gets the head tap too sometimes as she has cottoned on to the fact that between entering the ring and the judge saying forward (which is when the job actually starts) there is a bit of messing about. Ness being as experienced as she is has no doubt worked this out ages ago. I wonder if it's worth doing a few mock trials where you go straight into the start peg and do a short heel pattern then straight out and reward. No waiting no messing around. If she isn't expecting a lull in proceedings between entering the ring and actually working then she might be a bit less inclined to say oh haven't we done this before...ho hum oh whats that over there... Thanks Ptolomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivsky Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Ness I'd be taking her straight into the ring with no warm up treats before going into the ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 I wonder if it's worth doing a few mock trials where you go straight into the start peg and do a short heel pattern then straight out and reward. No waiting no messing around. If she isn't expecting a lull in proceedings between entering the ring and actually working then she might be a bit less inclined to say oh haven't we done this before...ho hum oh whats that over there...Thanks Ptolomy. We have had a few Show N Go's and they are invaluable for dealing this this sort of issue. However, the question is - do we let the dog continue and do a short heel routine if she is not paying attention at the start post. Ness - have you tried hand touches, spins, play bows roughing her up before linning her up in a trial? I would be interested to see at training with no food on you, if you set up a start post and walked Ness up to the post, removed the lead and gave your cue word - how long Ness would pay attention for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Just another oddball idea from a newbie.... how about setting up a ring or mock trial, where you don't obviously have food on you. However, when you get to the start post, wait her out until she decides to pay attention to you, treat/jackpot and leave the ring. Then, work on shortening the amt of time you will wait for her attention - too long, you leave the start post, within x secs, she earns a reward... or will this be setting you up for more problems later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natsu chan Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 My thought was that we do a halt at the start post, not the usual remove lead, judge says their piece, 'are you ready?', 'forward'. So the lead comes off before we enter the ring or at the gate. The dog is expecting the lull, but by just halting you catch them before they get a chance to space out. I had to do this many years ago with my first girl when I was a junior at Dover gardens, she didn't start training until she was 5 and she was a lazy sort of dog and that was the only thing that kept her brain on the job enough that we could do the club trials. Other wise the pattern was such that she learnt she could go off into a daze at the start peg. Not really what you want....Ness I hear you, it's frustrating Sunny use to drive me nuts but she was such a sweetheart in every other way that you couldn't really criticise her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 Just another oddball idea from a newbie.... how about setting up a ring or mock trial, where you don't obviously have food on you. However, when you get to the start post, wait her out until she decides to pay attention to you, treat/jackpot and leave the ring. Then, work on shortening the amt of time you will wait for her attention - too long, you leave the start post, within x secs, she earns a reward... or will this be setting you up for more problems later? pip - keep these idea coming - for a newby - you have got some good ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Rivsky I did try that at training one night and it was a diasaster. I cut down the number of treats she gets before going in two one or two. Ptolomy - yep I have tried spins, hand touches you name it Ness goes nope I am not getting into that game at all. I tried that setting up a post without having treats on me and I think from memory I got around 6 seconds and that was after a time out for her deciding to switch off immediately. She is just way to smart for her own good - ARGH!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 You might not like this Ness but I would also be wondering if it was me. Well I know that it is me in my case as I kind of blank out a bit as it freaks me out so much. When I go like that Poppy obviously also zones out. I lose my connection to her. It is very hard for the human not to change as they walk up to the start post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Since I might as well post a problem into this thread - any ideas on getting attention at the start peg. The dog can be paying perfect attention outside the ring and the moment we go into the ring she starts to sticky beak around and every time we go back to the peg between exercises its the same. Its almost become a cue to switch off if you like. Any takers on what to try for this one? I'm suffering from this one too as you know. Just lots of reinforcement at the start peg is a good start. Ness is into her food isn't she Sal? You could line her up at the start peg and as soon as she voluntarily gives you attention, jackpot and end the session. Another session, line her up and have someone approach to take your lead to replicate a trial situation best as you can, and use a word such as "ready" or "yes" for when the judge asks if you're ready, and when she looks at you using that word, treat. Treat a few times. I'm currently trying this with Ruby and her attention at the start peg in a trial has improved dramatically. Still a work in progress but I can definitely see results already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 So I guess what you are saying is that you are asking Ness to do something at a trial which she can't really do in training without food???? So what are you going to do to change this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) Er does retire her sound like a plan . Thats not strictly true Ptolomy she can do it at training without food, she has done it at trials too I have videos to show she can be really switched on and remain switched on . Edited November 23, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 Getting back to pip and your dumbbell issue - have you looked at the Shirley Chong method of teaching the dumbbell?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 How many of you feed your dogs prior to trialling or training??? and your reason behind doing this is...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Yep I feed them both because it has very little impact on Kenzie and Ness well she doesn't put in any more effort if she has just been fed or not she is always hungry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Here is one of my problems. I've been trying to teach my young dog a good solid stand stay, which she does well except that she has a tendancy to move one or both her back feet alittle, like she is shifting her weight or something. I've only taken it to the stage where I will reward her very very often and only move 1-2 meters away from her max, continually stuffing treats in her face, I've added some distractions also, generally her foot movment occurs when I am near her and doesn't seem to have anything to do with distractions. I've tryed very hard to only reward her stays up until the point she moves a foot, resetting her once she moves but no improvment, I don't think she is aware she is doing it. She is training for agility and I have done alot of rear end awareness work with her already (ladder work, standing in her water bowl, perch work, 2o2o contact training, walking on her hind legs and early handstand work) but we have hit a bit of a wall and I don't know how to fix this. Any suggestions? I like the "steady feet" game that I picked up at Sue Hogben's seminar. It's not the easiest thing to describe - much easier to demonstrate...however... Initially trained in the sit position. Ask dog to sit but otherwise keep mouth SHUT (hardest bit ). Have one hand full of small pieces of yummy food. Slowly bring once piece of food with other hand towards dog's nose/mouth. Keep your eye on the dog's FEET. If the dog's feet remain perfectly still, move the food very rapidly into the dog's mouth (yum!) Make it harder. If the dog gets up or moves a paw, do NOT say a word (!!!!) - just fly the food rapidly away from the dog. Don't make it too hard or too easy. Gradually ask for more from the dog and bring the food in from every angle - above, below, on the side, behind. Zig knows the game now and my expectation that he doesn't lean towards anything but looks me directly in the eye - he's very funny The dog learns quickly that it's about cause and effect - then progress to the stand and start easy again, progressing to standing over your dog eventually and not having them flinch. Eventually have others approaching the dog and they get the food for staying still and looking at you. When Zig does a stand for exam, his whole body bends and leans and wags whilst he greets the judge but he never moves a foot Also great for building confidence for sit stays and food refusal (should you choose to do that one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Getting back to pip and your dumbbell issue - have you looked at the Shirley Chong method of teaching the dumbbell?? LMAO - my Dally used to hurl the retrieve item across the room In fact it was in the "goals for 2009" thread to teach him NOT to do this!!! Anyway, Shirley Chong method was my choice (although I didn't follow it to the letter) - he's a dog that thinks pretty laterally so I reckon he was just testing the waters. Lots of patience and we are there now - have just developed a nice, enthusiastic retrieve with the dumbbell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 I like the "steady feet" game that I picked up at Sue Hogben's seminar. It's not the easiest thing to describe - much easier to demonstrate...however...Initially trained in the sit position. Ask dog to sit but otherwise keep mouth SHUT (hardest bit ). Have one hand full of small pieces of yummy food. Slowly bring once piece of food with other hand towards dog's nose/mouth. Keep your eye on the dog's FEET. If the dog's feet remain perfectly still, move the food very rapidly into the dog's mouth (yum!) Make it harder. If the dog gets up or moves a paw, do NOT say a word (!!!!) - just fly the food rapidly away from the dog. Don't make it too hard or too easy. Gradually ask for more from the dog and bring the food in from every angle - above, below, on the side, behind. Zig knows the game now and my expectation that he doesn't lean towards anything but looks me directly in the eye - he's very funny The dog learns quickly that it's about cause and effect - then progress to the stand and start easy again, progressing to standing over your dog eventually and not having them flinch. Eventually have others approaching the dog and they get the food for staying still and looking at you. When Zig does a stand for exam, his whole body bends and leans and wags whilst he greets the judge but he never moves a foot Also great for building confidence for sit stays and food refusal (should you choose to do that one). Well written TSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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