:ange: Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) Just wondering if anyone has any experience or thought with a 4 month old Wei puppy with a roaching topline. He's roached when relaxed, when stacked and when on the move. Obviously he's a growing puppy and will go through stages, but just wondering if anyone has experience to anything similar, how long it took them to grow out of this ugly stage.. It's got me slightly worried as it's his back. Probably slightly obsessing with it.. trying not to though!!!! I haven't got xrays done yet - have been advised by breeder not to go there yet as he's not fully developed. I Have taken him to a chiro who seemed to think there was nothing wrong with his back. I have tried Bowen Therapy with him who thought the whole problem was in his back - we've had one session and it seemed to come good for a day or so then went roachy again. We have our second session tomorrow. this is what I'm talking about.. Edited November 22, 2009 by :ange: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokezu Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 is he like it when he's playing? relaxing? or is this only happening when you are training him? if he is like it all the time he needs to be looked at, x-rays would be a good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 It could be a horrilbly ugly growth phase and it's not uncommon for dogs to go very bum high, roach over the topline and look horendous for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Do you have a stacked pic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:ange: Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 yeah all the time.. even when relaxed. I took him to a good vet and they thought it was his hips and wanted to do xrays. Wanted to look at other options before forking out hundreds on xrays on a very young pup. Have been down the very expensive road of diagnosis with my other bitch and paid thousands for a shrug of the shoulders - and ended up resolving itself. I have had the chiro tell me there was nothing wong with his back - it's his toe. The Bowen therapist has said there are ALOT of muscles out all along his back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 It could be a horrilbly ugly growth phase and it's not uncommon for dogs to go very bum high, roach over the topline and look horendous for a while. The don't call it the uglies for nothing They all go through it at some stage, some longer then others, some earlier then others. PS Fix that dangly lead up I have tried Bowen Therapy with him who thought the whole problem was in his back - we've had one session and it seemed to come good for a day or so then went roachy again. If Bowen fixed it - there is a problem. You can't correct bum high via chiro/bowen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 The Bowen therapist has said there are ALOT of muscles out all along his back. If your Bowen person is good & this what they said then you need to do strict follow ups,my young boy went every 2 weeks /monthly until 12 months. He also didnt play with other dogs until his back muscles had settled & strengthened. Having said that he had a great topline just being a winter baby during a bad winter didnt have the muscle tone that even the breeder was happy with so the silliest of injuries meant he tweaked easily,not now though. My guys attend Bowen 4/6 weeks every year. Be guided by your breeder though who knows how there line develops & also the topline your pup had prior to coming to you.There knowledge & advice is worth listening too. As pointed out if bowen fixed the issue then great but it wont fix bum high Having said that if i thought hips where an issue i would get x rays done just to simply now where i stood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:ange: Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 dangly lead? Photo shoot at home not for BIG never mind the lead.. it's the back I'm worried about!!! taken a couple of days after Bowen Taken yesterday Please no comments about my terrible handling - I am a newbie and know I have alot of work to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:ange: Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 bum high's just a stage though right? I'm pretty strict with his exercise and he does ALOT of leaping and jumping with my older bitch - who just braces herself and takes it doesn't leap back or egg him on. Should I keep them seperated? That will be sooo hard and very frustrating for us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Should I keep them seperated? That will be sooo hard and very frustrating for us all. This is a crucial age & if your pup is already showing signs of soreness then yes i would separate. Leaping & jumping can be all to much for a dog with muscle soreness in the back that needs to heal. What did your Bowen person say regarding activity level?? Bum high can be a stage or it can be forever. If the back is sore stacking will be hard work,generally they will brace/pull backwards & fig it because its uncomfy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 To be brutally honest, whilst I do think it could be PARTLY a bum high stage of development, from the photos, I think he may be a tad straight in stifle as well which wouldn't help his topline much. Novice handling aside. If you look at his front, he is A-framing badly which is what normally happens if you try to extend a straight-stifled dog beyond the vertical. Could you get a photo of you stacking him with his front straight up and down underneath his withers? And also, you might find that stacking him in front of a mirror will help you with your stacking practice generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Seperated a puppy is all arms and legs. Wait until he is older and more mature to put them together. OR only let them play when you can supervise. No leaping/jumping/stairs The picture taken yesterday he is A framing more, so it's possible that's the roaching you can see. Bowen can't fix bum high, so if Bowen is working stick with it. What does the breeder say about Bowen etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:ange: Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 we do practice in front of a mirror inside and it's all fun and games but since the back started roaching I have been concentrating less on the a-framing and getting that back level as much as I can. He's going through a stage of not liking hand stacking so I've given up on doing this inside with him at all and just doing free stacking - PLUS I don't want to reward him for roaching at all. We haven't been doing much stacking at all really.. I don't want to make him hate it already!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:ange: Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 3 month stack for comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:ange: Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Seperated a puppy is all arms and legs. Wait until he is older and more mature to put them together.OR only let them play when you can supervise. No leaping/jumping/stairs The picture taken yesterday he is A framing more, so it's possible that's the roaching you can see. Bowen can't fix bum high, so if Bowen is working stick with it. What does the breeder say about Bowen etc? breeder was all for Bowen - she hadn't used it much so didn't really have an opinion on it rather than give it a go. They ae only together when supervised.. he's kept inside when I'm at work. Puppys zoomies are had to control whch he loves to leap and jump around. I will try crating him once this sets in to keep him quiet. Will see what the therapist thinks tomorrow regarding bum high and roaching.. she advised to keep him relatively quiet which I have done as much as possible for a 4 month old pup. I may have to crate him ALOT more than he likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 You have 3 possibilities Bum high - Many pups go bum high - then good - then bum high. Others stay bum high. Injury - Bowen / Vet if Bowen does not solve the issue Conformation - Breeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 3 month stack for comparison. Still off his front even then (and in front of the vertical through the hock).....I hope I'm wrong....good luck with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Have you ever thought that you may be causing the problem by the way you are stacking the dog. What I picked up on was that he does not want you to handle him into the stack. Often pups go bum high I don't think that may have anything to with the top line problem. Good luck with him and let us all know what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:ange: Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 I don't doubt that I am the problem with stacking him.. We're going through the A-frame horrors if I try and hand stack him. This was taken today - 2 days post Bowen Therapy, free stacked with a bit of hand placement.. on the move.. topline has improved somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I know this isn't the subject at hand, but could I suggest something with your handling on the move that may help his topline as well? Instead of having the lead up high in the air, try training him to bait from your lead hand held lower and more in front of him if you can....so that he's actually running with his head held slightly higher, even if he runs looking slightly at you...whilst he is a baby it won't matter much and should help the optical illusion that is being created at the moment that he is running downhill away from the tight, long lead. In fact, a short, loose lead with him moving more slowly and probably more willingly along beside you will probably help whatever may be hurting him enough to be throwing his topline that badly in the first place and could aid in any recovery that is going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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