JudyG Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I had a bit of an incident with my 10 wk old westie at puppy school this week (detailed on Training forum) with a bit of growling. Since then she has growled at us a few times, for example when trying to attack my daughters shoe laces I lifted her away and she turned round and growled at me. Also sometimes when she is picked up and obviously dowsn't want to be she will growl a wee bit. Is this just her testing what she can get away with or is it a sign of true agression - what would be the definition of an 'aggressive dog'? I am obviously keen to nip any agressive behaviour in the bud. My trainer has said to get her to lie on her back on our laps (stroking and praising her) as this is a sign of submission. She will let me do this sometimes for a very short time but generally squirms like mad to get away - does anyone agree if this is something she should submit to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 When do you have an appointment with another trainer/behaviourist, as was suggested in your other thread? LINK to other topic I could say all sorts of things, but I cannot see or hear your dog, or you interacting with the dog- so it would be guessing. IMO The best way for you to understand exactly what is going on with your girl is to have the assistance of an experienced person.. at your home, and on a one-to-one basis. Best of luck with it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 It may be aggression or may be play. I don't think having the pup on her back will have any impact- especially if she struggles, squirms and then gets down. It is normal for pups to test the boundaries and knowing the best way to deal with it will set you on the right track quickly- unfortunately no one can tell online what the best way actually is as we can' see you, the pup or whats happening. Whereabouts are you located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Is this the trainer who told you to stare directly into her eyes to establish your dominance? If it is, I'll repeat my advice from the other thread - find a better trainer. Cesar Milan wannabes are not what you need. Leadership is about the relationship between you and your pup, not a physical position. You need to be training her that doing what you want brings rewards. If she doesn't like being handled, then she needs to be encouraged to tolerate it, not punished for objecting. If you want to encourage her to accept handling, establish the trust and reward her IN A NORMAL POSITION for the dog and work from there. If she is stroked and rewarded in a more normal position, you can work up to more handling from there. She's a terrier, not a toy breed. Her ancestors until recently were bred to kill vermin, not as a lap dogs. Terriers tend to be quick to react and some can be quite touch sensitive. Read what it says about defensive reactions in a breed summary here. For what it's worth, serious aggression in a 10 week old pup would be pretty unusual. Sounds like you've got a feisty one and she will need to be trained accordingly. Push and she's likely to push back. Force her to defend herself by getting physical with her and she probably will. You've already witnessed that when the trainer became forceful at puppy preschool. Encourage her to do the right thing and you're likely to have more success. You need decent training advice to get on top of this NOW. Edited November 19, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Agree with Poodlefans sentiments. Just wanted to add though that it doesn't mean you don't need to be assertive because you may well need to be (in combination with plenty of rewards). Being assertive is not about dominance, its about being clear, calm and confident. I saw a very feisty pup today who (although had been growling and snapping at the owner earlier) after a short time was enjoying handling and grooming more than ever before. As i said before the right advice will see you on a good path very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 dogs growl as part of their normal play vocabulary as well you're worried about aggression where there is none. Trust me I see all too many home diagnosed 'aggressive' dogs which are not in the slightest. At 10 weeks aggression is one in a million. Your dog is urinating, again it is not aggressive. See a vet then find a trainer who actually has up to date ideas about dogs that wont harm your pet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Agree with Poodlefans sentiments. Just wanted to add though that it doesn't mean you don't need to be assertive because you may well need to be (in combination with plenty of rewards). Being assertive is not about dominance, its about being clear, calm and confident. I saw a very feisty pup today who (although had been growling and snapping at the owner earlier) after a short time was enjoying handling and grooming more than ever before. As i said before the right advice will see you on a good path very quickly. Yep. As that breed summary says - you have to mean what you say. That means being firm but fair.. and always consistent. Establishing and maintaining a pattern of behaviour that sees the dog rewarded for doing what you want is the way to go. This is a pup I'd be doing obedience training with for at least 12 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Not all dogs are born loving being stroked. I have a puppy that loves being scratched as long as he doesn't have anything more pressing to do! He has come a long way just through picking him up a lot and handling him gently. He sounds like a more confident puppy than yours, but with him I aimed to push him just a little, always holding him a moment longer than he wanted to be held but before he got grumpy. With a less confident puppy, I might aim not to push but to desensitise without making them feel uncomfortable. If it helps, I have met a puppy that I would call aggressive and he didn't growl much. He did about a second's worth of growling before he went all out with snarls and hard bites. You sure knew about it when you pissed him off. Writhing puppy snarling and nailing anything he can get his teeth on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Judy, have you discussed this with pup's breeder. It tends to make me wonder how much the litter was handled too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyG Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 Judy, have you discussed this with pup's breeder. It tends to make me wonder how much the litter was handled too. Thanks for help and advice to date - I just want to make sure I do the right thing here to ensure we end up with a happy family pet! I haven't discussed as yet with the breeder - she wasn't keen on me doing puppy school until after next vaccinations. As far as I am aware, the dogs lived outside but were coming into the house in the last couple of weeks before going to their new homes. From what I could see she was affectionate with the dogs - not sure how many other people would have been with them other than breeder and her husband. I know westies can be feisty - My 11 yr old has always been independent but don't remember her growling much at us. Anyway I think I will give Jane Harper a call - she was recommended in my other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Judy, have you discussed this with pup's breeder. It tends to make me wonder how much the litter was handled too. Thanks for help and advice to date - I just want to make sure I do the right thing here to ensure we end up with a happy family pet! I haven't discussed as yet with the breeder - she wasn't keen on me doing puppy school until after next vaccinations. As far as I am aware, the dogs lived outside but were coming into the house in the last couple of weeks before going to their new homes. From what I could see she was affectionate with the dogs - not sure how many other people would have been with them other than breeder and her husband. I know westies can be feisty - My 11 yr old has always been independent but don't remember her growling much at us. Anyway I think I will give Jane Harper a call - she was recommended in my other thread. Yep, talking to Jane sounds like a great idea. She's helped quite a few DOLers. It's great you've gotten on to this early - so much easier to work with behaviour that isn't ingrained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyG Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 It may be aggression or may be play. I don't think having the pup on her back will have any impact- especially if she struggles, squirms and then gets down. It is normal for pups to test the boundaries and knowing the best way to deal with it will set you on the right track quickly- unfortunately no one can tell online what the best way actually is as we can' see you, the pup or whats happening. Whereabouts are you located? I am in Brisbane - western suburbs. I have been recommended to try Jane Harper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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