" What Can We Do"

[chrisjc]

I am seeing a pattern of threads on apbts all eventually going in the same direction, and some finger pointing, and then defensivness fired back in return [i am guilty of it]. i would like to start this thread looking to have a positive outlook on what we can do as apbt owners , bsl is obviously here to stay for at least awhile but what things can we do to shine a better light on our dogs and the breed itself?

anyones opinion is welcome and as long as we keep it positive im looking forward to some good ideas.

i would like everyones opinion on these topics;

1; education

2; responsibility

3; public perception

4; attack prevention

5; training/socialisation

6; containment

this is just a rough guide and please add anything else you deem as important.[im kind of in a hurry but wanted to get this started]

thanks , Chrisjc

[chrisjc]

come on people , lets get the ball rolling , instead of a neg thread lets fire some ideas and suggestions around!

[GeckoTree]

I dont own one, but IMO in states with prohibitive BSL I would keep my trap shut 100% if you own one, in states with restrictive BSL i would comply with the restrictions, in the territories that dont have BSL i would just do what everone should do and thats get out there with your dog and enjoy life.

1; education -be truthfull about the breed when talking about the breed when people ask.

2; responsibility- understand your dogs nature.

3; public perception- I personally dont care about this at all, so cant comment on it.

4; attack prevention- use common sence, if its dog agressive dont have it near dogs, etc.

5; training/socialisation- a must from an early age.

6; containment- as per legislative requirements in all states, if the feeling should be that the dog needs more secure containment than is givin then upgrade.

[chrisjc]

Thanks Gecko,

As an owner of one of these wonderfull dogs i find public perception a big part of my ownership as the public perception at this stage is terrible, so it has always been a large part to walk my dog[once trained] out in public and to show people of all sorts that they are simply not mindless killing machines which sadly is the general opinion. And i am happy to say i do think ive contributed to make a difference somewhat, in one way with almost 90% of my friends started to think i had changed to having bad judgement on this one choice to own a pitbull. they were pretty easy to sway as they would see the dog in all stages of development and also see her in all environments and to see how trainable they really are. in another way as much as it was a battle for a while living in a neighbourhood with lots of families ect, for a good six months people would be wary or cross the road or even funnier would come up and ask for a pat as they simply didnt know what a real apbt looked like , they thought they were huge 60kg dogs not a short athletic 21kg dog!

after a while the people would realise that there was no threat at all an happily bring there youngsters over for a chat and a pat, and i would always get a comment on her colour[ she is a "buckskin rednose"] and how exitic she looked lol.

within a year or so she was a much loved part of the neighbour hood and i was sad when i had to leave it , and so were some of the people i would see on the street and their kids.

i would like to say that that had to make some difference at some level, in a way where people werent under a false impression that all pitbulls were harmless but that alot of dogs are simply reflections of their owners and not a reflection of the breed itself.

and i think i could say that when an incident would happen or someone would comment on the breed these are the people who may stop someone short and relay the experience they have had with "the pitbull that lived up the road".

so to me the public perception is important as

A; to a level it reflects opinions to me as an owner.

b; it can be changed with nothing more than the work that everyone as a dog owner should put into their dog.

the most popular thing for all the kids and parents alike is her energy, even when sitting she tap dances her front feet and the kids just love it when they ask her to speak and she does so happily with a little 360 spin thrown in for a laugh.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Theres been a million threads like this mate nothing new, infact there was a thread just like it very recently in general plenty of good ideas, a search will bring it up. I think the topic creator was cosmolo.

[alpha bet]

I have commented on different threads on this before - Only to be razzed on by the enthusiasts here (who I feel dont bother even reading all I might have to say but just seem to get soooooooo defensive) - so very pleased to see you are looking for some positive comments.....

Below is the comment I made on one of the other threads which I thought was constructive but the enthusiasts chose to ignore and just 'can' me for my comments. So I post here again - perhaps someone will bother to stop and read what is meant as a constructive comment.

As far as trying to have the legislation lifted then the Pit Association should be working like the German Shepherd Club who did mass public relations in different states, by running demo teams and introducing breed and temperament surveys. They had to change the public attitude to get the support.

We used to take the demo teams to school/community fetes, Agricultural Shows and shopping centres giving demos on the working and tricks the GSD was capable of, this involved allowing the public (Including kids) to come in and meet and handle our dogs and speak with the owners about how to live with the GSD. The Shepherd Club Members did this for free. Any money raised went to the Guide Dog Association. When the ban was lifted we continued with these displays.... the work wasnt over just because the ban was lifted.

I sit back this time and hope that I am not going to be canned again......

[chrisjc]

Alpha , i do remember that from the other thread, but thanks for posting again.

i think the people from the APBT club of Australia, have been flat out copping it from left right and centre when they take a stand as they have in the past and i am only speculating but i get the impression that because they are a club that soley operates around Apbt's over time they started to attract the wrong people, they used to have a decent forum on their website but it was eventually taken off of their website as it was slowly overrun by "undersirable types" who would argue about the better fighting bloodlines and such, which obviously put a negative light on the club so it was removed. I am sure they have had in older times numerous shows and family days where the general public were invited to come"pat a pitbull" and weight pulling events would be on and a proper show ring with international judges. i was never able to attend any of the shows as i lived over ten hours away but from what i gather they were very well run and incident free.

i think that the way the laws have got tighter the people behind the club as one of the only real spokespeople for the breed in our country have been harrased and i would assume have had alot of pressure put on them from media types and i know that they have had some of their own photos of their own dogs played with and put in attack type stories in the papers. I think until recently they have been pretty quiet but as i live in Queensland ,i am unsure of any local stuff they may still do in Victoria.

As i dont realy know much about the Gsd restrictions from when they were around it interests me greatly how it was overcome.

i think maybee its time i contacted the club again and try to find out where they currently stand on their shows [if they are still having them] and renew my membership as i let it slide awhile ago.

I think activities like you are suggesting would def help contribute to a solution to the problem , i would say a large part of setting them up would be council approval of such an event, with widespread seperate council bans and restrictions i could just about bet on insurance being nearly impossible to get this day and age, as with most councils being against i cant see them being ecstatic about ten or more Apbt's running around in a public place with children about, but it def is an option. thanks for your input.

Lo Pan , i am aware that there has been similar threads on the past as even in the short time i have been on here i have participated in a couple, but it doesnt mean you shouldnt take the time on this one! you do have quite a bit to say on the bsl and apbt related threads and i would be thankfull if you chose to participate on this one.

As alot of the other threads have turned into a bit of a s----fight for both parties i wanted to keep this one positive and moving forward, without going into a three page circle of points.

But at this rate unless we get some more opinions we will be lucky to get to two pages!

[StaceyB]

1; education

Don't sugar coat things, this breed has it's faults (just like any other breed) and it takes a stong willed person to overcome some of these, like the pre-disposition for dog aggression in APBTs, something I have found easy to manage with the right training and precautions. The breed is also extreamly loyal, trainable, affectionate and fun to be around. If you are prepared to take the good with the bad then these dogs can be amazing companions.

Owners need to be aware of the breed history and work with that to make a good dog.

2; responsibility

Do your research before considerring owning a restricted breed. As I said above, they can be a handful, but if you know what you are getting into they are easily managed and can make very rewarding companions.

3; public perception

Unbiased media reporting. Too many people see the news shows making such a big deal about pit bull attacks (and very little is heard about other breeds) and they generalise and think that the whole breed is like that. The public need more education about dog behaviour to realise that just because one person has done the wrong thing with their dog doesn't mean it's to dogs fault because of what breed it is.

4; attack prevention

This comes back to doing your research before buying the dog, if you know what signs to look for a DA dog can be managed fairly easily. I picked it up with Gypsy, got some training, stopped going to the off lead park and I haven't had any problems since. It would be nice if other dog owners around my area would contain their dogs and keep them on lead.

5; training/socialisation

This is a big thing! If you don't train your dog from day 1 you are just asking for trouble. Socialisation helps the dog learn how to interact with other animals, although it doesn't always head off DA, Gypsy was socialised regularly from the time she was vaccinated but she still ended up being mildly DA.

6; containment

Every animal owner has a legal obligation to contain their animal, regardless of breed or species. Wandering animals are a danger to themselves and others.

[chrisjc]

stacy, you are 100% right on the your DA comments kimba was very DA when i got her but with alot of hard work the problem has been pretty much solved. She is has been trained in what i think are the correct ways with this breed [positive renforcment] and as much as i wouldnt trust her with some dominant type dogs she will socialise well with others in what i would call a controlled environment, if i am with her she will listen because it will always get her what she wants by listening to me[praise and treats!] but i would not let her run riot with strange dogs on her own, which goes without saying i guess its just common sence with this breed.

spot on for everything else youve said too.

[Mym]

On NYE I was at a great party at a local community hall in the Northern Rivers, NSW. Outside there were performers and it was a lot of fun. I was sitting with my husband and there was a man with an Am Staff. So gorgeous, he was only 14 months old. He was firm with this dog but he was so caring, it was really lovely to see.

I mentioned that I had helped rehome another one recently and we got talking and he told me this dogs history.

The dog was tied up outside a pub with a note on the wall next to him saying he was FTGH. When this man went in and spoke to the owner, he was told the dog was an idiot, couldn't get on with other dogs, and if he didn't get rid of it today then he would shoot it.

The man decided to take the dog, he walked outside and got it, and walked up to the vet, he is a farm labourer and spent just about all his money as the dog had two broken ribs, the vet said that he thinks it had been kicked.

This guy lives alone and works alone and the dog goes with him where he works in a banana plantation. During the next few days I saw this man a few times around town and this dog was just so calm and settled. He knows all about bsl, the vet filled him in and he is trying to get the dogs papers but as you can imagine he isn't having much luck.

Just goes to show that dogs don't get it wrong, people do.

[geo]

Public perception, responsible owner ship.

I posted on another topic that to own a Native animal you need permits and an adequate home, but anyone can buy a dog. That is why so many end up at the pound and then at the dump.

Regardless of breed, responsible ownership is the key.

i have friends that i wouldn't have my dogs with because they are irresponsible people, and i wouldn't want them to own any dog, but they do, they're not bad owners, they look after the dog but not in the way some breeds need to be looked after.

When i walk them, i let all the kids and adults play with them, i tell them how to approach a dog, where and where not to hold them.

But as a whole we need the media on our side to get the word out about how wonderful all dogs can be when treated/trained properly.

[Nannas]

On NYE I was at a great party at a local community hall in the Northern Rivers, NSW. Outside there were performers and it was a lot of fun. I was sitting with my husband and there was a man with an Am Staff. So gorgeous, he was only 14 months old. He was firm with this dog but he was so caring, it was really lovely to see.

I mentioned that I had helped rehome another one recently and we got talking and he told me this dogs history.

The dog was tied up outside a pub with a note on the wall next to him saying he was FTGH. When this man went in and spoke to the owner, he was told the dog was an idiot, couldn't get on with other dogs, and if he didn't get rid of it today then he would shoot it.

The man decided to take the dog, he walked outside and got it, and walked up to the vet, he is a farm labourer and spent just about all his money as the dog had two broken ribs, the vet said that he thinks it had been kicked.

This guy lives alone and works alone and the dog goes with him where he works in a banana plantation. During the next few days I saw this man a few times around town and this dog was just so calm and settled. He knows all about bsl, the vet filled him in and he is trying to get the dogs papers but as you can imagine he isn't having much luck.

Just goes to show that dogs don't get it wrong, people do.

AmStaff may get confused are are really nothing to do with BSL

[Nannas]

Public perception, responsible owner ship.

I posted on another topic that to own a Native animal you need permits and an adequate home, but anyone can buy a dog. That is why so many end up at the pound and then at the dump.

Regardless of breed, responsible ownership is the key.

i have friends that i wouldn't have my dogs with because they are irresponsible people, and i wouldn't want them to own any dog, but they do, they're not bad owners, they look after the dog but not in the way some breeds need to be looked after.

When i walk them, i let all the kids and adults play with them, i tell them how to approach a dog, where and where not to hold them.

But as a whole we need the media on our side to get the word out about how wonderful all dogs can be when treated/trained properly.

There is NO WAY we will get media on our side when most attacks are from unregistered pits/x's.

Those are the people we need to rid society of.....the idiots with unregistered pits...and still breeding.

I had a electrician here last week asked me if I wanted to cross my AmStaff with a pit bitch.. Told him my Amstaff was a bitch and if his mates pit DOG was smaller than my amstff,,,he could piss off....

Got lots of offers to cross with my pit bitch....

APBT mating is still going on,,,shame that most of it is crosses....but it won't end BSL...

Stats is all that will end BSL...there are just over 2,500 registered pits/crosses in NSW but how may pits and crosses are there really??? Some people say as many as 5,000.....

We need to make people be responsible....for owning a pit....BSL isn't the answer...

From NSW Dog Bits sites,,,,,pits had LESS than 3 bites in each 3 months....

Didn't even account for 3 bites in any 3 month reporting.. month this year!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is just a joke

[Longcoat]

I imagine that there are APBT breeders in Australia that breed a quality dog and people heavily involved in the breed would know where to get a puppy from ;) Hypothetically, what would stop perhaps a couple of APBT breeders from aquiring between themselves some main registered Amstaffs, conduct their APBT breedings on Amstaff papers and escape the BSL restrictions on that basis???. The puppies are sold to responsible people in the know so to speak as they possibly are already, registered/licenced as Amstaffs that grow up into good canine citizens and who in authority would be any the wiser, except the dedicated APBT owner and enthusiast would have an unrestricted dog to enjoy life like any other recognised breed as they should be able to???.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Longcoat

[Steve]

For what its worth I think the whole strategy has to change and that as much as possible specific breeds shouldnt be mentioned any more than they have to be.

The fight has to be against any breed specific legislation not for pittys or any other breed.

[Longcoat]

For what its worth I think the whole strategy has to change and that as much as possible specific breeds shouldnt be mentioned any more than they have to be.

The fight has to be against any breed specific legislation not for pittys or any other breed.

Hi Steve,

I read somewhere once, that the foundation of BSL began with the forming of a policy that breeds of a "fighting origin" shall be restricted, and the breeds falling into that category where then listed. The BSL as I understand it lists specific breeds on the basis of "fighting origin" and the problem is that regardless of where those breeds have evolved today fails to impact upon the tunnel vision perception that the breeds once had a fighting origin and contradicts the foundation policy.

The strategy should perhaps focus on the fact like many other breeds that their original "fighting" purpose in most cases have been genetically removed as time evolved???

Edited January 23, 2010 by Longcoat

[Steve]

For what its worth I think the whole strategy has to change and that as much as possible specific breeds shouldnt be mentioned any more than they have to be.

The fight has to be against any breed specific legislation not for pittys or any other breed.

Hi Steve,

I read somewhere once, that the foundation of BSL began with the forming of a policy that breeds of a "fighting origin" shall be restricted, and the breeds falling into that category where then listed. The BSL as I understand it lists specific breeds on the basis of "fighting origin" and the problem is that regardless of where those breeds have evolved today fails to impact upon the tunnel vision perception that the breeds once had a fighting origin and contradicts the foundation policy.

The strategy should perhaps focus on the fact like many other breeds that their original "fighting" purpose in most cases have been genetically removed as time evolved???

Thats true but since then there has been lots of work done and the recent report in the UK is a good feather in anti BSL's cap and one they should capitalise on.There have also been public statements by RSPCA and several other dog people to support that.

Probably the only real pain you still have to fight is Hugh Wirth - thats a pretty big pain because he is in the pockets of National and state policy makers but its a good shot to have a go at it.

You cant prove that all dogs of a particular origin no longer have their original drive - so why go there ?

You can say all dogs regardless of breed or what their original purpose was can bite and its a people issue not a dog issue.

Sure arm yourself with as much science and evidence that you can so that you are able to defend a breed if and when its named or denegrated but publicly push for eqality in the laws. The ability to own the dog of your choice as long as you are responsible with it and the focus on responsible dog ownership for all dog owners regardless of breed. Politically there is a fair window there for that to take off where earlier it was a lot more difficult.

[Longcoat]

For what its worth I think the whole strategy has to change and that as much as possible specific breeds shouldnt be mentioned any more than they have to be.

The fight has to be against any breed specific legislation not for pittys or any other breed.

Hi Steve,

I read somewhere once, that the foundation of BSL began with the forming of a policy that breeds of a "fighting origin" shall be restricted, and the breeds falling into that category where then listed. The BSL as I understand it lists specific breeds on the basis of "fighting origin" and the problem is that regardless of where those breeds have evolved today fails to impact upon the tunnel vision perception that the breeds once had a fighting origin and contradicts the foundation policy.

The strategy should perhaps focus on the fact like many other breeds that their original "fighting" purpose in most cases have been genetically removed as time evolved???

Thats true but since then there has been lots of work done and the recent report in the UK is a good feather in anti BSL's cap and one they should capitalise on.There have also been public statements by RSPCA and several other dog people to support that.

Probably the only real pain you still have to fight is Hugh Wirth - thats a pretty big pain because he is in the pockets of National and state policy makers but its a good shot to have a go at it.

You cant prove that all dogs of a particular origin no longer have their original drive - so why go there ?

You can say all dogs regardless of breed or what their original purpose was can bite and its a people issue not a dog issue.

Sure arm yourself with as much science and evidence that you can so that you are able to defend a breed if and when its named or denegrated but publicly push for eqality in the laws. The ability to own the dog of your choice as long as you are responsible with it and the focus on responsible dog ownership for all dog owners regardless of breed. Politically there is a fair window there for that to take off where earlier it was a lot more difficult.

Personally I think the biggest hurdle from a political perspective is the general public's reaction to a proposal for overturning BSL, bearing in mind people that hate dogs are also involved in those decision making processes and are bound to kick up about such a proposal. I don't think owning a breed of choice carries much weight as it could be argued that owning a pet of choice should also be permitted for example someone wanting a pet tiger instead of a domestic cat???.

Perhaps more demonstration work with those breeds, specifically the APBT which is the most common restricted breed to prove that they are credible pets as an education process. A few years ago a friend of ours had what he called a Staffy cross and she was a delightful dog. Sally her name was after several years, our friend told us she was actually an APBT I didn't think that I had ever met an APBT and would have expected at least severe dog aggression if ever I met one, but Sally happily played with my dogs and she was as stable and reliable as any other well bred and trained dog.

I have met several APBT's since, all have been really good dogs

[Steve]

For what its worth I think the whole strategy has to change and that as much as possible specific breeds shouldnt be mentioned any more than they have to be.

The fight has to be against any breed specific legislation not for pittys or any other breed.

Hi Steve,

I read somewhere once, that the foundation of BSL began with the forming of a policy that breeds of a "fighting origin" shall be restricted, and the breeds falling into that category where then listed. The BSL as I understand it lists specific breeds on the basis of "fighting origin" and the problem is that regardless of where those breeds have evolved today fails to impact upon the tunnel vision perception that the breeds once had a fighting origin and contradicts the foundation policy.

The strategy should perhaps focus on the fact like many other breeds that their original "fighting" purpose in most cases have been genetically removed as time evolved???

Thats true but since then there has been lots of work done and the recent report in the UK is a good feather in anti BSL's cap and one they should capitalise on.There have also been public statements by RSPCA and several other dog people to support that.

Probably the only real pain you still have to fight is Hugh Wirth - thats a pretty big pain because he is in the pockets of National and state policy makers but its a good shot to have a go at it.

You cant prove that all dogs of a particular origin no longer have their original drive - so why go there ?

You can say all dogs regardless of breed or what their original purpose was can bite and its a people issue not a dog issue.

Sure arm yourself with as much science and evidence that you can so that you are able to defend a breed if and when its named or denegrated but publicly push for eqality in the laws. The ability to own the dog of your choice as long as you are responsible with it and the focus on responsible dog ownership for all dog owners regardless of breed. Politically there is a fair window there for that to take off where earlier it was a lot more difficult.

Personally I think the biggest hurdle from a political perspective is the general public's reaction to a proposal for overturning BSL, bearing in mind people that hate dogs are also involved in those decision making processes and are bound to kick up about such a proposal. I don't think owning a breed of choice carries much weight as it could be argued that owning a pet of choice should also be permitted for example someone wanting a pet tiger instead of a domestic cat???.

Perhaps more demonstration work with those breeds, specifically the APBT which is the most common restricted breed to prove that they are credible pets as an education process. A few years ago a friend of ours had what he called a Staffy cross and she was a delightful dog. Sally her name was after several years, our friend told us she was actually an APBT I didn't think that I had ever met an APBT and would have expected at least severe dog aggression if ever I met one, but Sally happily played with my dogs and she was as stable and reliable as any other well bred and trained dog.

I have met several APBT's since, all have been really good dogs

The number one biggest issue that dog owners are ticked off about is that they cant go anywhere or do anything without off leash dogs and dogs at large causing grief to them and their animals. They get worried about bull breeds because of their reputation so instead of demannding that councils do their jobs and do something about dogs not under control [any dog]they think they cant solve the problem of roaming dogs so they want to restrict what type of dogs exist so when they roam they feel safer.Governments dont police the laws they already have so owners of dogs perceived to be a greater danger pay for the irresponsible owners of all breeds.

Families dont just want some breeds of dogs under control they want all dogs under control so they have the ability to walk on the street or play in a park without being afraid.

[chrisjc]

Stacy mentioned on the previous page that it shouldnt be about breeds names being mentioned.

I do agree with you to a certain extent, but in relation to Australia our bsl is can be looked at in either two ways, we are a commonwealth country, therefore we adopted their dog bsl.

the other way is that BSL in Australia is nearly entirely about Pitbulls.

of these dogs: American Pitbull

Presa Canario

Japanese Tosa

Brazilian Fila

Argentinian Doggo.

How many of you can honestly say you have ever knowingly saw any off the other dogs on this list in a pure representation?

I can probly answer it for you; None.

non of the other dogs exist in this country and if they do they are kept pretty underground.

personally i have been lucky enough to have known two Filas, but they are long gone.

and if they tell you its only dogs with a fighting history??

what a load of crap, Filas are a personal protection dog, never have been a fighting dog.

Doggos are used for hog hunting as a pack dog, not a one on one fighting dog.

Canario? protection dog, if used for fighting only a very small % of idiots.

so that leaves us with the TOSA and the APBT, both are dogs with fighting history wont argue there.

so Bsl is in Australia largely about the Apbt. they are the only dog that average joe thinks he knows anything about, if you asked them what a "canary dog" was hed probly reply with something about some dog that sings, or ask what a fila is hed say its a shoe.

but every average joe thinks they know something about pitbulls. they think they know that they are the size of a large GSD with the head of a lion and the body of a werewolf, and your average pitbull lives on a steady diet of horse's heads', and weak local children who cant get away, and their owners "Bait" them with the local maltese/shitzu population.

people beleive what they want to believe.

I got a 10 out of 10 for Lying when i went to puppy pre school and anounced i owned an APBT and a few people laughed because she was just a "Red Staffy" 9 out of ten people couldnt pick a pitbull out of a dog line up if it licked them in the face.