Australian Working Dogs Survey

[Kelpie-i]

I am not sure how to take the tone of your post shortstep, but it certainly is coming accross aggressive. I merely asked for some input but clearly you are assuming I was on the offensive with you.

Teaching redirects on outruns is vital for the dogs understanding of where he position should be and for the handler to be able to direct the dog to different areas at any time. If you can not redirect a dog when he starts to head the wrong way, for waht ever reason he may be doing that, then you have no control over where the dog is going and the dog does not understand that at any time you may want him to be in another location.

The problem was not the redirects on the cast, nor was it the cast itself. She has a lovely and controlled cast and understands her positions. Again, the problem only occurred when she was working a small flock of say 5 sheep in a small round yard. Next door, there was a larger flock of say 20 sheep. She would be working the smaller flock for a little while without fault and would suddenly think to herself that this is boring and jump the fence to get to the larger flock. Sorry for my ignorance shortstep, but I fail to see how re-directs either on cast or whilst fetching is going to stop her from jumping the fence. Once she's off, she was off.

Did she feel she needed to jump the fence because she knew better and her instinct was to gather the other sheep?? Who knows...the fact of the matter was she did it a number of times and even the herding trainer that we worked with (who is extremely well respected here in Victoria and around Australia) stated that she was doing this because it was self rewarding. "She is being a little shit" were his exact words.

Dogs, whether it be in sport, obedience or just at home, will do things that are rewarding to them. Behaviours that are self reinforced/rewarded and come with what we term a "life reward" are much harder to remove compared to behaviours that are reinforced/rewarded with non-life rewards. In this case, her reward (to herself) was to jump the fence and work the larger mob of sheep rather than continuing her work with 5 sheep in a small yard.

On the other hand, when out in the paddocks with a much larger flock, she was flawless. Never crossed, split sheep nor pushed too hard. If she was told to re-direct and/or come around she would. She is also a natural backing dog with good presence and push in the race.....although we haven't done too much with her with this. The problem was only in the small round yard. I hope that is clearer now.

Look my point is, scaring a dog is not dog training.

Well if you really want to get technical it is Positive Punishment which forms part of the motivational matrix in the theory of learning.....but if you read my post properly, I did state that the method was not something you would recommend in a book. We had a problem that needed to be rectified and this is what was suggested to us and it worked...also it most certainly did not handicapped her in any way since she is a good dog with sturdy nerves and whilst not currently trialling, has placed well in a number of trials in the past.

It seems pretty silly to me for you to be saying that farmers with generations of experince are lacking in the undertstanding of modern dog training, and then you go hide behind a traps and jump out to scare the heck out of dog as a "training" method to teach a dog not to go off and work other sheep in the area.

Where, exactly, did I state this shortstep??? I would suggest you re-read the entire thread and refrain from putting words in my 'mouth'. If you will.. I stated that farmers do not need fingers pointed at them, rather they need guidance and support if they seeked it. Nowhere did I mention that they don't understand modern dog training methods AND nowhere did I say I was an expert on sheep herding.

But I will defend the role of the working dogs in this world and will defend the people that have devoted generations to breeding, training and using these dogs. The very dogs that you and I now enjoy. You might learn a lot if you gave some of these folks the respect they deserve.

No-one was berating the dogs either. This is one of the reasons I own 2 working kelpies. I love their intelligence, their spunk and their drive. I know and have regularly frequented with many farmers and breeders of Kelpies...some who have been working and trialling dogs for a lifetime and who possess an abundance amount of knowledge. I will take my advice from them and have no hesitation in singing their praises.

Now, if we can get back to the original topic of this thread.

[jesomil]

Good stuff shotstep

I think there is a little confusion with terminology going on. I think Shortstep is talking about being able to redirect a dog mid cast. Eg, you cast your dog, then before it reaches the mob, you redirect it to another mob.

Therefore the dog works the mob you want it to work not which ever mob it chooses. You can set up 3 mobs of sheep and the dog watches all of them but when you sent the dog, it only goes after the mob you direct it to.

Dogs shouldnt be choosing what to herd, they should be following their handlers commands.

If the dog is trained in this manner, it will only work the sheep directed and will not be looking elsewhere. Also if a dog goes to jump a fence looking for other sheep, you can redirect it even before it reaches the fence so fence jumping is not a problem.

Edited the yard dog bit so its not taken the wrong way.

Edited November 21, 2009 by jesomil

[Kelpie-i]

Thanks Jesomil, that clears things up. Admittedly, we did not do any sort of training like that, perhaps it could of come in handy if we had.

Dogs can jump fences in a yard trial no worries at all as long as they are still working. Fence jumping is really handy in work situations.

In which level Jesomil? I've seen dogs lose points because they jumped fences and worked sheep that they weren't supposed to. One such occurred a few years ago at Warrigul trials in the Encourage level and the judge made it very clear that it was no acceptable.

[Erny]

... you cast your dog, then before it reaches the mob, you redirect it to another mob.

Therefore the dog works the mob you want it to work not which ever mob it chooses.

Ahhhh .... that makes sense, even to me . Thanks Jesomil .

[jesomil]

he he he oops, you quoted the bit I edited out!! I was too slow!!

Jumping fences to work other sheep would be a disqualification at any level I would think but jumping a fence when the dog was solidly working its sheep would be ok or maybe minor points depending on sitaution.

Yard dogs need to jump fences in day to day work so its all part of it as long as they arent looking for work elsewhere.

ETA No different to any working dogs. If a guard type dog is being sent after someone, they cant change their mind and head for someone else. Their handler needs to be able to direct them and even redirect them when necessary. Going after an innocent person that looks more interesting is a big no no

Edited November 21, 2009 by jesomil

[shortstep]

Just doing a shed teaches the dog that sheep can be in 2 different places, so teach her to do a shed.

Then work on doing sheds, by split a flock of 20 and cut off 5 sheep and work her on only those 5 sheep and let the others wonder off. My guess she will try very hard to put them back together, but keep at it and help her see that you only want the 5 sheep. She will start to really learn to only work the sheep she is directed work.

You need redirects and a look back (trun around and look the other way) to finished sheds and double lifts. Teach her these commands as part of the shed training.

When this gets comfortable, teach her to take off a single sheep and hold it, preventing it from returning to the other sheep.

When she can do this,

Then do double lifts, teach her to only gather the sheep you send her to. Set one flock of sheep at one end of a paddock and set another flock at the other end. Go to the center of the paddock, make sure she see both sets of sheep. Then send her to one flock, ( if she locks on to one set more keenly, then send her to the other set) bring them to your feet. Then teach her to let go of those sheep at your feet use your look back (to turn her around towards the other flock and look for them) and send her off the other way to pick up other flock. Join the 2 flocks, then shed them into two flocks again and take one flock off to one end of the paddock and leave it there. Then send her back to other get the flock you left behind. Then cut off only 3 sheep and take them away from the paddock, leaving the rest of sheep in the paddock.

When she is doing this well and no longer trying to get to the sheep you are not wanting her to work, go back to the pens.

Shed off 3 sheep from 20 in the pen and take the 3 off through the rest of the pens and leave them in the last pen (or however you have ti set up). Go back and get 3 more and repeat unitl the the whole flock has been moved. Have her shed off a single in the pen and hold it to you while catch it, as if you need to do something to it. You can muck around with these excersises a lot of different ways.

These exercises will teach her to stay on task, to only work the sheep she is directed to work, will free her up, will become fun for her as her confidence and skills improve and make her a very usefull dog.

[Kelpie-i]

Thank you, thank you shortstep, this is a much clearer definition and it makes perfect sense.

I can see how the dog would learn discrimination of the different mobs with this method and as mentioned, would have probably come in very handy.

[shortstep]

Thank you, thank you shortstep, this is a much clearer definition and it makes perfect sense.

I can see how the dog would learn discrimination of the different mobs with this method and as mentioned, would have probably come in very handy.

Just an example of how this works in real life.

Due to the way my paddocks are laid out, I needed to take a flock of ewes with their lambs through another paddock that had a bunch of yearling ewes and a ram.

I brought the flock of ewes and lambs to the gait with my dog. I then sent my dog into the next paddock with the yearlings and drove the yearlings over to one corner, left them there and recalled my dog. I then entered the paddock with the moms and lambs. About half way across the yearlings decided they wanted to join the flock. I gave my dog a look back and redirect, and sent him, but not a cast, I sent him straight on and he drove the yearlings back to the corner again. We left them there and he came back and we finished our way across the pddock and exited into the next paddock with the moms and lambs. My dog had to maintain control of two seperate flocks of sheep and keep them seperate.

Practical farm work, demands good training and then the tasks usually go smoothly. Not only for the person and the dog but also for the sheep. If the two flocks had joined, I would have had an hours work to separate them and would have had a bunch of young lambs underfoot in the process, all stressful for the sheep.

Trialing is suppose to demonstrate useful work, personally I think that always need to be kept in mind. The dog should be trained to do useful work and you only go the to trial to show that off...LOL

Edited November 21, 2009 by shortstep

[Kelpie-i]

Wow, that's fantastic work from your dog. Did you train him yourself? I suppose this is one of the reasons why some will pay top dollar for a well trained dog, they are worth every penny and more.

So when are you coming down to do a workshop for us...hmmm??

[cry123]

"The problem was not the redirects on the cast, nor was it the cast itself. She has a lovely and controlled cast and understands her positions. Again, the problem only occurred when she was working a small flock of say 5 sheep in a small round yard. Next door, there was a larger flock of say 20 sheep. She would be working the smaller flock for a little while without fault and would suddenly think to herself that this is boring and jump the fence to get to the larger flock. Sorry for my ignorance shortstep, but I fail to see how re-directs either on cast or whilst fetching is going to stop her from jumping the fence. Once she's off, she was off.

Did she feel she needed to jump the fence because she knew better and her instinct was to gather the other sheep?? Who knows...the fact of the matter was she did it a number of times and even the herding trainer that we worked with (who is extremely well respected here in Victoria and around Australia) stated that she was doing this because it was self rewarding. "She is being a little shit" were his exact words."

I personnally think that your dog needs a better recall and stop. i feel that if you spend time correcting this, you will have some more luck as well!!!!

I would also recommend organising a school with Greg Prince. He is the man!

Also, in three sheep trials, if a dog leaves the arena, but does so to continue working the same three sheep, but for a different spot, then they arent elimainated.

Edited November 22, 2009 by cry123

[shortstep]

"The problem was not the redirects on the cast, nor was it the cast itself. She has a lovely and controlled cast and understands her positions. Again, the problem only occurred when she was working a small flock of say 5 sheep in a small round yard. Next door, there was a larger flock of say 20 sheep. She would be working the smaller flock for a little while without fault and would suddenly think to herself that this is boring and jump the fence to get to the larger flock. Sorry for my ignorance shortstep, but I fail to see how re-directs either on cast or whilst fetching is going to stop her from jumping the fence. Once she's off, she was off.

I wonder if redirect means the same thing to me as it does to you.

I think what you are talking about is what I call flank commands. Sheep are 20 feet away and you a call flank clockwise, then you stop the dog and call a flank counter clockwise??

Redirects are different. Here is a example. Sheep set out at 300 meters in front of the handler, behind the handler are more sheep set out 100 meters behind. You send the dog to the first flock at 300 meters, half way to the sheep at 150 meters you stop the dog, call a look back and redirect them to the other flock behind you. Dog is redirected to another location.

Another example. Paddock is an L shape. On a blind set out, sheep 300 meters straight up, then 200 meters to the left, row of trees hedge fence to the left between handler and sheep blocking the view and pathway. Dog sent to the right side of the paddock, up to about 300 meters, sheep now in view of dog to the left, then flanked again, to head dog to the left, again on the right side of the sheep 200 meters to find the sheep. Outrun is in 2 parts, up the field, then left across the field, return would follow the same route back, 200 meter cross drive, 300 meters fetch down the field to the handler. Dog is sent to one location and then redirected to a different location.

I can think of 3 reasons right off an inexperienced young dog would jump a fence to get to nearby sheep.

1. Does not understand it is supoose to only work the sheep it is directed at, so trys to gather all sheep in the general area.

2. Wants to work sheep, does not want to work them under the control of the handler, so dog exits the pen with the handler and goes for the sheep in the other pen withno handler.

3. Dog wants to work but feels too much pressure in the pen it is in, either caused by fences and sheep, or by handler, so jumps out to get away from perssure but still looks for other sheep.

In either case, solid training on building directional commands, working different flocks in same area, learning to shed sheep and take control of only the sheep the handler wants will all help. And certainly as you mention, stops and recalls of those are lacking. Once these skills are built, the dog will be more confident, know where it is supose to be and will have a better realtionship with the handler.

Old saying, 'When you have a young dog that wants to do too much, give it too much to do'.

Another words, make the tasks more complex and more rewarding.

Edited November 23, 2009 by shortstep

[jesomil]

I would also recommend organising a school with Greg Prince. He is the man!

Absolutely. You will learn more from him than anyone else. I have been to many workshops but I came home from his buzzing with pages and pages of notes.

[Erny]

Old saying, 'When you have a young dog that wants to do too much, give it too much to do'.

Another words, make the tasks more complex and more rewarding.

I like that

Good explanations regards the training, SS. Thank you. Even though I don't do herding, it is interesting and thought provoking.

[Janba]

I would also recommend organising a school with Greg Prince. He is the man!

I have been to a Greg Prince school and it was terrific. I would really like now to go to a more advanced clinic run by him to iron out a few problems I now have with trialling.

[Dova]

Has anyone been to one of Matt Webs schools, I've been wanting to but every time he's doing one in SA I haven't been able to go. A couple of friends went & said it was great so next year it WILL happen, I did a school with Ben Page at Melrose & now Greg Prince sounds pretty interesting too, reading all your posts is giving me plenty of ideas too, thanks all . I've only just got into herding trials & am turning into a bit of a tragic, my Coolie & Aussie Shepherd are going really well, Izzi the Coolie has her PT & is one pass off her HSA & Pebbles the Aussie has her PT & is two passes off her HSA. We only started in March, I've been around cattle all my life but only just started working with dogs & sheep, we used horses because it was all mud, belly deep water & reeds over your head, dogs would have been buggered by the time they'd swam from island to island .

[Kelpie-i]

Old saying, 'When you have a young dog that wants to do too much, give it too much to do'.

Me likes this saying....me steal it from you

I can think of 3 reasons right off an inexperienced young dog would jump a fence to get to nearby sheep.

1. Does not understand it is supoose to only work the sheep it is directed at, so trys to gather all sheep in the general area.

2. Wants to work sheep, does not want to work them under the control of the handler, so dog exits the pen with the handler and goes for the sheep in the other pen withno handler.

3. Dog wants to work but feels too much pressure in the pen it is in, either caused by fences and sheep, or by handler, so jumps out to get away from perssure but still looks for other sheep.

I think it would be number 3 and number 1 as well. Both her stops and recalls are fine when working therefore I really do think she may be feeling a bit of pressure and looks for an escape route as well as not understanding which sheep she is supposed to be working.

Yes I think the terminology is certainly different, but I'm beginning to understand your terminology SS.

I have never had the change to get to a Greg Prince workshop and yes I have heard he is excellent. We used to work/train our Kelpies with Paul McPhail many years ago but as I mentioned, have not had the chance to do this over the last few years.