Australian Working Dogs Survey

[Aidan]

From the transcript:

"NICK BRANSON: There's now a great opportunity with the large number of responses that we got to take that back to the Animal Welfare branch of the Department of Agriculture and say, look, there's a really important need here for us to collaborate more closely with working farmers and give them opportunities to gain access to the information that many of us take for granted now."

The strategy proposed has been broadly outlined here:

http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health...are/aaws/online

[Kelpie-i]

Thanks for the info Aidan.

The Dept of Agriculture hey.....I wont' hold my breath then! Having said that however, if something was to come of the survey, it would be a great welcome to those who are interested in the help.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[shortstep]

Re the survey itself, I look forward to personally assessing the validity and reliability of the the research methodology of the study, searching for patterns in the resulting data and forming my own views on the conclusions and recommendations proposed.

So do you train sheepdogs? Is that your keen interest in this topic, or is just any animal welfare issue you are keen to get involved with?

Seems they did not have much to say about how the dogs were taken care of. Just how they were trained.

I have a couple of things to say about that.

People have been using border collies and kelpies for real work for well over 100 years for the kelpie and likely around 200 years with the border collie. These same people using these dogs were the people who developed the breeds. They did a fine job in my opinion, as both breeds are very talented on stock and can get the jobs done.

Fact one, for a sheepdog to be a good example of the breed, it need to learn it's job without a lot of fancy training. If a dog requires too much effort to learn it's job, then that dog is a failure (might make a fine pet but not a good sheepdog). No farmer has that sort of time to devote to training a dog, not every average farmer is going to be a great dog trainer, sorry folks but this is just the way it is. Do you suppose that is why the border collie is listed as the most intelligent breed? That the dogs that figured it out with out a lot of fancy assistance and succeeded, were then selected to breed? I know this is what happens. A slow learner, a dog that need a lot of help learning its job is not going to get bred from. This is also why they have so much instinct to move a certain away around the stock, to balance stock, and a dozen other working traits. It is also why they are so keen to work and will never give up when working sheep. It is part of the package of what makes a great sheepdog. I believe this is the only appropriate method and selection for sheepdog, it is what made the bred what is it today. Change this and you change the breed.

As far as shock collars, I have never seen nor heard of a shock collar used on a kelpie or border collie. They are far too soft to tolerate that type of training. I would guess that the shock collar use comes from those doing attack training, police training and those sorts of activities.

Sheepdog training is reward based and has always been so. It is the dogs desire to work the sheep that keeps them going, and it is the good feeling they get when the job goes smoothly that is the reward that teaches them what is expected. These dogs 9 times out of 10 already know instinctively how to move around sheep, what they do not know is the commands and the functions that the hander expects. It does take time to widen a dogs experiences. Working other animals with dogs is always unpredictable. You can not go out there with a lesson plan and hope the sheep just happened to do the right thing for what ever it is you want to train. Farmers, who are good dog trainers and not so good dog trainers have muddled through for almost 200 years, using and developing these breeds. Again they have done a fine job.

Do remember that these dogs are vital to getting the work done, so this is not something that those who are not involved with the actual training, stock work and breeding should get involved in if you ask me. If people from a Uni want to tell stock dog handlers how to train dogs, they better get busy and train a few of their own first. No one will take anything they say seriously if it is all book learning and theory. They need to get dusty and hot, put their dog in the paddock with the sheep and cattle and show us how to train. They might actually find it is darn bit harder then their theory indicated.

Border Collies

by Baxter Black

Excerpt from Cactus Tracks & Cowboy Philosophy: Commentary by NPR's Cowboy Poet and Former Large-Animal Veterinarian

Just a word about one of the greatest genetic creations on the face of this earth...the border collie.

********

Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive.

Able to leap tall fences in a single bound.

The dog that all sheep talk about but never want to meet. The fur that legends are made of.

Makes coyotes cringe, sheep trip the light fantastic, and eagles soar somewhere else.

Invested with the energy of a litter of puppies, the work ethics of a boat person, and the loyalty of Lassie,

they ply their trade on sagebrush flats, grassy fields, and precipitous peaks from sea to shining sea.

"Away to me!" I command. They streak and sail, zipping like pucks on the ice.

Black-and-white hummingbirds, in out, up down, come by.

Sheep. With head up, one eye cocked over their shoulder asking directions. To the gate through the race.

Mighty dog moves behind the bunch like a towboat pushing barges around a bend.

And heart. Do they try? "Just let me at'em, Dad!"

Stay. "C'mon, I'm ready!" Stay. "Can't you feel me hummin'!

Listen to my heart! It's purrin' like a cat! I am primed! Aim me, point me, pull the trigger!"

"Away to me!" It makes me feel like Robin Hood. He leaves my side like an arrow.

Workin' dogs is like manipulating a screwdriver with chopsticks. Like doing calligraphy with a plastic whip.

Like bobbing for apples. Like threading a needle with no hands. Like playing pool on the kitchen table.

There are no straight lines in nature. Only arcs. Great sweeping curves of sight and thought and voice and dog.

Always having to lead your command about a dog's length.

Sheep bunched like logs on the river. Dogs paddling in the current. Always pushing upstream.

A ewe breaks loose. Then another, amd another.

The logjam breaks. Dogs and sheep tumble about in the white water.

Calm again, they start back upstream.

Border collies.

Are they truly smarter than a chimpanzee? Cuddlier than a koala? More dedicated than Batman's valet?

Can they change course in midair? Drag Nell from the tracks and locate the missing microfilm?

Yes. I believe they can. They are the best of the best, the epitome of "above and beyond the call of duty."

Head dog. Top Gun. I salute you, for man has never had a better friend.

******

Originally aired on National Public Radio on June 28, 1994

Edited November 19, 2009 by shortstep

[Pippi]

Yaaaaaay, Shortstep - I love it......

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Do you suppose that is why the border collie is listed as the most intelligent breed?

[Kelpie-i]

Absolutely brilliant post shortstep :p except....

Just a word about one of the greatest genetic creations on the face of this earth...the border collie.

Uhhhum

[shortstep]

Absolutely brilliant post shortstep :p except....

Just a word about one of the greatest genetic creations on the face of this earth...the border collie.

Uhhhum

That was written in the US, 16years ago. There were not a lot of kelpies around.

However I am sure he would not mind and would even happily agree, if you want to substitude Kelpie for Border Collie and change black and white to black and tan!! :>)

[4Kelpies]

I agree with most of what you said Shortstep (of course I substituted Kelpie for BC.)

You wrote ....."As far as shock collars, I have never seen nor heard of a shock collar used on a kelpie or border collie. They are far too soft to tolerate that type of training. I would guess that the shock collar use comes from those doing attack training, police training and those sorts of activities."

Unfortunately I have heard of many sheep dog trainers who use shock collars and not in any gentle scientific manner recommended by obedience trainers. I was speaking to several highly successful 3 sheep trainers not long ago and they only ever had their collars turned to the highest shock level. They believed that if they were going to use shock collars the dog really had to feel it. I know of a young dog that was bred and trained by another top level competitor. This dog had a lot of presence and tended to upset his sheep. His new owner found that he would go half way on the cast and then throw himself to the ground whimpering in anticipation of the shock. He is now having fun working sheep in the yards where he has no bad memories and where his presence is an asset. A rule was brought in (last year I think) that in 3 sheep trials no collars were allowed. There was disagreement from a large number of trainers who used to run their dogs in heavy collars with bits of wood attached so the dog would still think it was wearing a shock collar.

I don't know of any Kelpie trainers who admit to using shock collars on their dogs but I've heard the talk about several "suspects." Maybe as most yard dogs earn their living on farms and go to trials on weekends as opposed to the more specialised 3 sheep trial dogs who rarely work on farms, their training relies more on instinct and less commands and correction.

Most working dogs are valuable and so are well cared for. These dogs may spend much of their lives on chains or in small runs with none of the fancy bedding or toys that pet dogs take for granted (they would probably only destroy these,) but get to do a job they love and are happy. I know of working dogs who are treated as valued partners and have a great life. Unfortunately I know of other working dogs who have a miserable existence, worked hard, fed small amounts of the cheapest food available, housed with little shelter and shot when their health gives out. I doubt that any amount of information about training and care sent out by govt. departments would have any effect on their owners.

[cry123]

I agree with most of what you said Shortstep (of course I substituted Kelpie for BC.)

You wrote ....."As far as shock collars, I have never seen nor heard of a shock collar used on a kelpie or border collie. They are far too soft to tolerate that type of training. I would guess that the shock collar use comes from those doing attack training, police training and those sorts of activities."

Unfortunately I have heard of many sheep dog trainers who use shock collars and not in any gentle scientific manner recommended by obedience trainers. I was speaking to several highly successful 3 sheep trainers not long ago and they only ever had their collars turned to the highest shock level. They believed that if they were going to use shock collars the dog really had to feel it. I know of a young dog that was bred and trained by another top level competitor. This dog had a lot of presence and tended to upset his sheep. His new owner found that he would go half way on the cast and then throw himself to the ground whimpering in anticipation of the shock. He is now having fun working sheep in the yards where he has no bad memories and where his presence is an asset. A rule was brought in (last year I think) that in 3 sheep trials no collars were allowed. There was disagreement from a large number of trainers who used to run their dogs in heavy collars with bits of wood attached so the dog would still think it was wearing a shock collar.

I don't know of any Kelpie trainers who admit to using shock collars on their dogs but I've heard the talk about several "suspects." Maybe as most yard dogs earn their living on farms and go to trials on weekends as opposed to the more specialised 3 sheep trial dogs who rarely work on farms, their training relies more on instinct and less commands and correction.

Most working dogs are valuable and so are well cared for. These dogs may spend much of their lives on chains or in small runs with none of the fancy bedding or toys that pet dogs take for granted (they would probably only destroy these,) but get to do a job they love and are happy. I know of working dogs who are treated as valued partners and have a great life. Unfortunately I know of other working dogs who have a miserable existence, worked hard, fed small amounts of the cheapest food available, housed with little shelter and shot when their health gives out. I doubt that any amount of information about training and care sent out by govt. departments would have any effect on their owners.

That is a great post 4kelpies. ;) I agree very much with all of what you say.

Shock collars are used in trialling trainiing and with farmers. I got rattle of many people who use them off the top of my head and not even give it a second thought.

Collars can not be worn in trials in Vic, it hasnt been inforced in NSW as yet. This has come about from people, like you said using "fake collars" to try to replicate electric collars.

In saying that though there are many, many good triallers who dont use this method.

I love our working dogs, both BC's and kelpies. We use our dogs as both working and trial dogs. I took part in the survey, but i can honestly say that i dont think anything will come about fom it.

[Kelpie-i]

There are working dog workshops popping up in most parts of Australia these days which, I believe, have provided many with the opportunity to learn more about handling and training their working dogs. I think the problems come from those older farmers who are set in their ways and will dare not take direction from some pen pushing, city dwelling office workers about which methods to use for training their dogs. These guys have been doing things their way for decades, obviously learning from their fathers etc etc. Resistence to change is inevitable but at least it's a start in the right direction.

And it's not just e-collars, anything can be used to punish a dog.....and yes I agree with 4Kelpies, e-collars are definitely used in some instances, albeit incorrectly.

As to the welfare of the dogs, well again this comes down to what has been the 'norm' for many decades as well. When you consider that some working dogs are purchased for $50 from Harry down the road, it's quite obvious that there isn't a high monetary interest to the farmer. He's not about to go out and spend a fortune on bedding, feed and fancy collars. It's a different way of thinking for some unfortunately.

Some pay thousands of dollars for trained dogs. Are these dogs looked after any better....who knows?? I know of one dog that was purchased for $5000 and was accidentally run over by the new owner a week later. Dog was sleeping under the truck and owner didn't know he was there. Whilst this was an unfortunate accident, I know that if I'd paid $5000 for a dog, I'd be housing him in the Penthouse suite.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Aidan]

"Learning theory can be summarised as two basic principles and the first one is that if a behaviour is considered rewarding then it gets repeated and the opposite of that is that if a behaviour is unrewarding or not enjoyable then the motivation to repeat that behaviour is reduced and so it does not occur again."

"The difficulty is that unless one is looking at the outcome of using punishment in terms of its effectiveness, the temptation is to increase the strength of the punishment rather than to evaluate the approach to training. The way to evaluate the effectiveness of punishment is to see whether the behaviour is repeated. If the behaviour is repeated it demonstrates the dog didn't learn it." -- Nick Branson, Landline interview

One thing about learning theory is that it isn't very prescriptive. It doesn't say "do that this way" it says stuff like "did what you just do increase or decrease the behaviour?" There's nothing fancy about that.

[kelpiechick]

"Learning theory can be summarised as two basic principles and the first one is that if a behaviour is considered rewarding then it gets repeated and the opposite of that is that if a behaviour is unrewarding or not enjoyable then the motivation to repeat that behaviour is reduced and so it does not occur again."

"The difficulty is that unless one is looking at the outcome of using punishment in terms of its effectiveness, the temptation is to increase the strength of the punishment rather than to evaluate the approach to training. The way to evaluate the effectiveness of punishment is to see whether the behaviour is repeated. If the behaviour is repeated it demonstrates the dog didn't learn it." -- Nick Branson, Landline interview

One thing about learning theory is that it isn't very prescriptive. It doesn't say "do that this way" it says stuff like "did what you just do increase or decrease the behaviour?" There's nothing fancy about that.

But puts a different slant on for some who might never have considered that before I guess. In some ways it's like being a beginner at obedience, you tell your dog to sit, dog doesn't comply so what do many do- repeat the command louder.

I also didn't get the impression from the segment that it was going to be the statisticians from Deakin Uni. who were going to offer a ' train the trainer' program, thank goodness ;) (as was suggested in a previous post)

Adopting some differences in a training program shouldn't be something that is more time consuming for the trainer - should be a way of working 'smarter' to get the results rather than additional time taken to train. (sorry, don't like that description of smarter, but can't think of another way to say it)

One of the things that Solomon spoke of during the interview was the foundation training that his young pups receive before they are on sheep and I would think that this would be an important training area that is still overlooked in some cases that can make a big difference. I know the breeders of my kelpies have spoken about how they place much more emphasis on this than compared to say 10 -15 years ago and have still had many comments from other farmers who don't understand that with the foundation in place off stock, the learning on stock (where they are building on things already taught) comes quicker and therefore the later start doesn't matter.

4Kelpies, you are bang on the money unfortunately with your descriptions of how some treat their dogs. (Luckily it is only some, as I said before there are some great working dog handlers and trainers out there too) I could also add some matching kelpie stories to your list. After seeing firsthand how one 'considered one of the top' Victorian breeder treats his own dogs I bought mine elsewhere -although this was the 'breeder you have to buy from' according to many others.

And I'm sure many know the story of what happened to the 'top price' dog from Casterton a few years ago too.

And data collection and training methods aside, did anyone else actually enjoy watching the program from the point of view of admiring a good trainer with lovely dogs and seeing the great relationship that obviously existed between him and his dogs? I hope my baby BC works for me like that some day.

[Kelpie-i]

And I'm sure many know the story of what happened to the 'top price' dog from Casterton a few years ago too.

Which top selling dog from Casterton are you referring to KC? There have been a few stories come out of Casterton "top selling" dogs. We owned one of them a few years ago before it was sold at Casterton.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Kelpie-i]

One of the things that Solomon spoke of during the interview was the foundation training that his young pups receive before they are on sheep and I would think that this would be an important training area that is still overlooked in some cases that can make a big difference. I know the breeders of my kelpies have spoken about how they place much more emphasis on this than compared to say 10 -15 years ago and have still had many comments from other farmers who don't understand that with the foundation in place off stock, the learning on stock (where they are building on things already taught) comes quicker and therefore the later start doesn't matter.

From memory, I think he stated that he starts them at 7 weeks but not on sheep (??). I've always been told that the best time to start pups WITH sheep is around 7 weeks to test instincts and to nuture the natural herding instinct. I will have to re-watch the episode another time and try to take in more of what was said.

One thing about learning theory is that it isn't very prescriptive. It doesn't say "do that this way" it says stuff like "did what you just do increase or decrease the behaviour?" There's nothing fancy about that.

Aidan that is unfortunately true. This is why attending workshops with experts in their field can be invaluable to actually see what and how to do it.

My OH's Kelpie bitch would jump the fences into the next paddock where there was always a larger mob of sheep to be worked. This behaviour would cost her points in a trial so it needed to be stopped.....but how?? She was self rewarding each time she jumped into the other paddock. We figured out that she would jump at a particular point along the fence line and so a bunch of us hid behind the hessian sack covering. As soon as she jumped, we also jumped up and took her by surprise. This scared her enough that she ceased the behaviour. Probably not the sort of technique you would write in a "how to" book, but it worked and it didn't cause her any harm either physically or psychologically (only that she no longer jumped the fences during work).

[shortstep]

My OH's Kelpie bitch would jump the fences into the next paddock where there was always a larger mob of sheep to be worked. This behaviour would cost her points in a trial so it needed to be stopped.....but how?? She was self rewarding each time she jumped into the other paddock. We figured out that she would jump at a particular point along the fence line and so a bunch of us hid behind the hessian sack covering. As soon as she jumped, we also jumped up and took her by surprise. This scared her enough that she ceased the behaviour. Probably not the sort of technique you would write in a "how to" book, but it worked and it didn't cause her any harm either physically or psychologically (only that she no longer jumped the fences during work).

Some international courses with a dog leg outrun, may require a dog to jump the fence to take the shortest and most correct route to access the sheep.

I guess you never shed?

In a 300 acre paddock when some sheep are at one end and more at at the other end, a double lift is the most efficient way to gather the sheep saving the sheep from excessive running.

Instead of scaring the dog about jumping fences which was not the real problem, it might be better to address the real problem, assist the dog to learn to work the sheep it is being directed at and to leave other sheep in the area alone.

Teaching redirects on outruns is vital for the dogs understanding and for the handler to be able to direct the dog to different areas. As well as teaching and using sheds. Double lift outruns, leaving the first flock mid way on the fetch and turning the dog off those sheep to fetch another flock in a different location, broadens a dogs exerience with working isolated flocks of sheep in areas where there are other sheep in sight. All of these skills help the dog learn to work the flock it is being directed at, while also freeing the dog up so that it can be redirected as needed at any time to other flocks of sheep in the area.

Just old fashion training, widening the dogs experiences, handed down over the generations by sheepdog handlers.

Edited November 20, 2009 by shortstep

[Kelpie-i]

shortstep, we were training for trials so this behaviour is undesirable. Unfortunately there weren't 300 acre paddocks, just small round yards with sheep in each adjoining yard used for holding. Kelpies are just too smart for their own good sometimes..

I've gotta go out now but I'll come back to this SS, I'd like to pick your brain if that's okay

[shortstep]

shortstep, we were training for trials so this behaviour is undesirable. Unfortunately there weren't 300 acre paddocks, just small round yards with sheep in each adjoining yard used for holding. Kelpies are just too smart for their own good sometimes..

Training for trials should have at least the hint of producing practical skills that could be used in real life. Sales yards, the dogs need to and do jump fences as directed as part of their job. Station yards, dogs jump over fences as part of their job as directed. To frighten a trial dog so it will never jump a fence, may be a means to the end of getting a ribbon, but will render the dog handicapped in real life.

There are working dog workshops popping up in most parts of Australia ....

I think the problems come from those older farmers who are set in their ways and will dare not take direction from some pen pushing, city dwelling office workers about which methods to use for training their dogs. These guys have been doing things their way for decades, obviously learning from their fathers etc etc. Resistence to change is inevitable but at least it's a start in the right direction.

Perhaps some other creative uses of the scare and startle method can be taught at these seminars for these older farmers who are not training their dogs with the modern methods you want to see them use.

For dogs crossing over on the outrun, they will hide in pits in the ground center field and jump up screaming like a mad thing as the dogs goes to cut across. For coming in too hard at the top the person could hide amongst the sheep draped in hessian, as the dog comes in too hard and they jump and scare the crap out of the dog (I bet that dog will come in real soft the next time, if it will come in at all). This method has endless uses in training sheepdogs.

Call me old fashion, but I rather they understand that when your dogs jumps the fence at a trail, it is because the dog does not understand it's job to work only the sheep it is directed at. And as importantly they would understand that the act of jumping the fence is not the 'behavior' that needs to be fixed, and fixing it will not teach the dog anything about it's role to only work the sheep it is directed at.

Edited to add, I would not say the kelpies are too smart for their own good. I would say their intelligence is their saving grace, as it is unfortunate that their owners are often not nearly as smart.

Edited November 21, 2009 by shortstep

[Kelpie-i]

Training for trials should have at least the hint of producing practical skills that could be used in real life. Sales yards, the dogs need to and do jump fences as directed as part of their job. Station yards, dogs jump over fences as part of their job as directed. To frighten a trial dog so it will never jump a fence, may be a means to the end of getting a ribbon, but will render the dog handicapped in real life.

I agree on your first point but I also believe it would also depend on the sort of trials you are training for. As you know, yard trial levels especially Encourage do not require the dog to jump over fences. In fact it would be seen as the dog being out of control and lose points as a result. It would also depend on the sort of dog you are working ie soft or hard tempermented. Having said that, I would be interested to learn how you would make a dog that is absolutely hellbent on jumping fences, understand that this is not required at the moment using alterntive methods that won't handicap the dog. Genuinely curious.

Call me old fashion, but I rather they understand that when your dogs jumps the fence at a trail, it is because the dog does not understand it's job to work only the sheep it is directed at. And as importantly they would understand that the act of jumping the fence is not the 'behavior' that needs to be fixed, and fixing it will not teach the dog anything about it's role to only work the sheep it is directed at.

I am not sure who "they" are that you refer to shortstep? Owners/handlers or trial judges?

Edited to add, I would not say the kelpies are too smart for their own good. I would say their intelligence is their saving grace, as it is unfortunate that their owners are often not nearly as smart.

Saving Grace in a real work situation....most definitely. But there is no denying that there are some extremely arrogant bastards out there who work purely for themselves even in the hands of very capable handlers who need to continuosly work keep these dogs in line.

You've obviously trialled before, what level did you get to? I am definitely no expert in this field and unfortunately haven't been able to attend a trial for a few years now due to the dog training business but I do intend to get back into it soon.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[shortstep]

Training for trials should have at least the hint of producing practical skills that could be used in real life. Sales yards, the dogs need to and do jump fences as directed as part of their job. Station yards, dogs jump over fences as part of their job as directed. To frighten a trial dog so it will never jump a fence, may be a means to the end of getting a ribbon, but will render the dog handicapped in real life.

I agree on your first point but I also believe it would also depend on the sort of trials you are training for. As you know, yard trial levels especially Encourage do not require the dog to jump over fences. In fact it would be seen as the dog being out of control and lose points as a result. It would also depend on the sort of dog you are working ie soft or hard tempermented. Having said that, I would be interested to learn how you would make a dog that is absolutely hellbent on jumping fences, understand that this is not required at the moment using alterntive methods that won't handicap the dog. Genuinely curious.

Call me old fashion, but I rather they understand that when your dogs jumps the fence at a trail, it is because the dog does not understand it's job to work only the sheep it is directed at. And as importantly they would understand that the act of jumping the fence is not the 'behavior' that needs to be fixed, and fixing it will not teach the dog anything about it's role to only work the sheep it is directed at.

I am not sure who "they" are that you refer to shortstep? Owners/handlers or trial judges?

Edited to add, I would not say the kelpies are too smart for their own good. I would say their intelligence is their saving grace, as it is unfortunate that their owners are often not nearly as smart.

Saving Grace in a real work situation....most definitely. But there is no denying that there are some extremely arrogant bastards out there who work purely for themselves even in the hands of very capable handlers who need to continuosly work keep these dogs in line.

You've obviously trialled before, what level did you get to? I am definitely no expert in this field and unfortunately haven't been able to attend a trial for a few years now due to the dog training business but I do intend to get back into it soon.

I mentioned what I do to widen a dogs experince so that he will understand to work the sheep I direct him to and not other sheep in the area. Does not matter what type of trialing you want to do, the message is the same to the dog, work the sheep I send you to and not the others. If your dog has these skills he will not jump a fence in a yard trial to get to nearby sheep.

here it is again, I have added a few more comments.

Teaching redirects on outruns is vital for the dogs understanding of where he position should be and for the handler to be able to direct the dog to different areas at any time. If you can not redirect a dog when he starts to head the wrong way, for waht ever reason he may be doing that, then you have no control over where the dog is going and the dog does not understand that at any time you may want him to be in another location.

Teaching and useing sheds as part of daily work. Any dog that can shed, hold off a single, or drive one part of that flock off into the distence is not going to keep trying to get to every sheep in the area.

Double lift outruns, leaving the first flock mid way on the fetch (maybe 150 meters away) and turning the dog off those sheep to fetch another flock in a different location, broadens a dogs exerience with working isolated flocks of sheep in areas where there are other sheep in sight. Not only does this teach them to only work the sheep you send them after, but it also teaching them to leave a flock of sheep and go to another flock. Any dog that can do this is not going to be trying to get to every sheep on the paddock or in nearby pens.

All of these skills help the dog learn to work the flock it is being directed at, while also freeing the dog up so that it can be redirected as needed at any time to other flocks of sheep in the area. Scareing a dog not to jump fences does not teach the dog anything that will help him learn that he is not suppose to go after the sheep o the other side of the fence. It might be a quick fix to get by in a trial, but when there is no fence between him and other sheep he will still not understand to not go after those sheep unless you direct him to.

Look my point is, scaring a dog is not dog training. It seems pretty silly to me for you to be saying that farmers with generations of experince are lacking in the undertstanding of modern dog training, and then you go hide behind a traps and jump out to scare the heck out of dog as a "training" method to teach a dog not to go off and work other sheep in the area.

I am not responsible nor defending what every creep in this country does to their dogs, be they sheepdog owners or any other type of dog owner. But I will defend the role of the working dogs in this world and will defend the people that have devoted generations to breeding, training and using these dogs. The very dogs that you and I now enjoy. You might learn a lot if you gave some of these folks the respect they deserve.

Edited November 21, 2009 by shortstep

[Erny]

Look my point is, scaring a dog is not dog training. It seems pretty silly to me for you to be saying that farmers with generations of experince are lacking in the undertstanding of modern dog training, and then you go hide behind a traps and jump out to scare the heck out of dog as a "training" method to teach a dog not to go off and work other sheep in the area.

I am not responsible nor defending what every creep in this country does to their dogs, be they sheepdog owners or any other type of dog owner. But I will defend the role of the working dogs in this world and will defend the people that have devoted generations to breeding, training and using these dogs. The very dogs that you and I now enjoy. You might learn a lot if you gave some of these folks the respect they deserve.

I've been reading the thread, although not joining in - especially in matters relating to herding training. It is not my forte and consequently I prefer to 'listen' to those who have experience in this field.

Your response to Kelpie-i was a bit stroppy, Shortstep?. I think K-i was asking a genuine question of you but it sounds to me as though you've snapped back at her?

I don't fully understand your explanation as to what you would do with a dog who does leave the area to work other sheep. Mainly because I don't understand the lingo, I think. But I know that Kelpie-i will explain this to me at some stage when we manage time .

Edited November 21, 2009 by Erny