ncarter Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I hope that makes sense and gives a little more insight into why I think that way. Not trying to have an all-out debate on the topic and make any enemies over it, as I rarely speak my mind on controversial topics! Just wanted to show that I am seeing this from someone who I guess lies somewhere in between the breeder and average pet buyer Edit for spelling I understand what your saying. If someone is interested in backyard breeding I dont think NOT having the limited registration papers is going to stop them. The person will have the bitch there for potential buyers to see and that is proof enough for most people. If you consider the kind of people interested in BYB and petshops - I dont think seeing the limited reg. pedigree of one of the dogs parents would be at the top of their MUST have list. oh there is a woolies at 100 st georges terrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Rubystar, I think generally breeders are fairly experienced in working out who is genuine and know what they are talking about, and who is not. I totally agree with you, though, and I see myself asking them the questions should they approach me asking for full papers. I dont think it is too difficult to work out the suss ones because I think they usually give themselves away at some point (however I can see there would be a lot of people out there who have done enough research to pull the wool over even the most experienced breeders eyes as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Thing is, I've never approached a breeder asking about getting papers up front! I was blissfully unaware that getting them wasn't a given. I knew the differences when buying Ruby between Main and Limited, and was wanting Limited (which is a good thing hey because Main wasn't going to be on offer ) and just assumed that the Limited Registration would be in my name when buying the puppy. In this instance, I assumed right, the breeder had it transferred over to me right away without me even mentioning it. Now I see that this isn't the case with all breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 RS, if you want to show or trial then it is a different kettle of fish - particularly if the person already competes However, I don't envy you trying to find a Lab breeder who will sell you a show pup, from what I hear it is near impossible for a first show dog if you go to the "good" breeders You will also rarely get them at time of picking up pup anyway as it is pretty rare to have them returned by Canine at that time, and will get worse once they bring in that pups must be microchipped prior to rego. Ncarter, having papers means some people will be more likely to breed. Many people don't understand the difference between limited and main (even if explained to them by the breeder) and then if they have friends/family saying "why not breed, she is a nice dog and has papers" it could tip them over the edge. So while it won't stop all it might stop some It is just another example of few spoiling it for everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 RS, if you want to show or trial then it is a different kettle of fish - particularly if the person already competes However, I don't envy you trying to find a Lab breeder who will sell you a show pup, from what I hear it is near impossible for a first show dog if you go to the "good" breeders You will also rarely get them at time of picking up pup anyway as it is pretty rare to have them returned by Canine at that time, and will get worse once they bring in that pups must be microchipped prior to rego.Ncarter, having papers means some people will be more likely to breed. Many people don't understand the difference between limited and main (even if explained to them by the breeder) and then if they have friends/family saying "why not breed, she is a nice dog and has papers" it could tip them over the edge. So while it won't stop all it might stop some It is just another example of few spoiling it for everyone Not that it matters for this "debate", but if I get into showing, it won't be with a Labrador I do hear you about trying to get a good show dog, especially a bitch. That is why I am open to a dog as well as a bitch for my next dog I got Ruby's papers a week after she came home, but knew they were coming because her breeder asked me for my current address so that the papers could be sent there. Which leads me to another question (genuine one! I'm very interested in how all this works!) To those breeders who withhold papers until desexing with the contract, do your puppy buyers know up front that they won't be receiving the papers and at what point in the process are they informed? It's just that I assumed I'd get them with Ruby (which lucky I did), so I never actually ASKED. Is it a case of if the breeder doesn't mention not getting them, you will, or is it a case of breeder doesn't mention papers at all and they are still withheld until contract condition is met? If I buy a puppy in the future and I don't mention receiving papers (which I wouldn't have thought to do so until this topic came up), how much of risk am I at not receiving them and the dog being in my name ASAP if neither party mention it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 All our terms of sale were in the contract which was signed by the new owner, I think it said something to the effect of "the pup is sold with limited registration and the rego papers and $300 refund would be forwarded on receipt of a sterilisation certificate before the pup was 12 months of age, as long as the dog was not used at stud prior to sterilisation". I couldn't remember if you wanted a Lab or not LOL. But I don't envy anyone who tries to get a show Lab! Would you consider co-ownership? For me to get Banjo on Main it had to be a co-ownership. Although I am his "owner" and responsible for all expenses, Marie's name is just on the papers so I can't use him at stud without permission I know a lot of breeders are going that way to. I didn't care since he is a male It is a little more difficult with a female but will probably do the same thing again for my next Kelpie although she would probably be on breeder's terms as well so will go back for a litter. However I will make sure it is in writing when the litter can be had as I know dogs that were on breeders terms and sterilised at around 6 years of age (due to vet suggestions) and the breeder got shirty coz she hadn't used her yet! Our co-own contracts for our two males pups that are being kept entire in case we want to use them at stud specify that the dogs must remain entire until they are 3yo however can be sterilised before that time if we are consulted first and there is a good reason, or if it is an emergency (in which case we would not expect to be contacted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 RS, if you want to show or trial then it is a different kettle of fish - particularly if the person already competes However, I don't envy you trying to find a Lab breeder who will sell you a show pup, from what I hear it is near impossible for a first show dog if you go to the "good" breeders You will also rarely get them at time of picking up pup anyway as it is pretty rare to have them returned by Canine at that time, and will get worse once they bring in that pups must be microchipped prior to rego.Ncarter, having papers means some people will be more likely to breed. Many people don't understand the difference between limited and main (even if explained to them by the breeder) and then if they have friends/family saying "why not breed, she is a nice dog and has papers" it could tip them over the edge. So while it won't stop all it might stop some It is just another example of few spoiling it for everyone Not that it matters for this "debate", but if I get into showing, it won't be with a Labrador I do hear you about trying to get a good show dog, especially a bitch. That is why I am open to a dog as well as a bitch for my next dog I got Ruby's papers a week after she came home, but knew they were coming because her breeder asked me for my current address so that the papers could be sent there. Which leads me to another question (genuine one! I'm very interested in how all this works!) To those breeders who withhold papers until desexing with the contract, do your puppy buyers know up front that they won't be receiving the papers and at what point in the process are they informed? It's just that I assumed I'd get them with Ruby (which lucky I did), so I never actually ASKED. Is it a case of if the breeder doesn't mention not getting them, you will, or is it a case of breeder doesn't mention papers at all and they are still withheld until contract condition is met? If I buy a puppy in the future and I don't mention receiving papers (which I wouldn't have thought to do so until this topic came up), how much of risk am I at not receiving them and the dog being in my name ASAP if neither party mention it? I can only answer the bolded part of your question... as far as I know, it's quite a high risk at least in WA... apparently, it is a rquirement by DogsWest to register every puppy, but it is not a requirement for every puppy owner to be given the papers. I think in NSW and QLD, the requirement is there that every owner must receive their papers, but here it perhaps is worded differently. either way, as part of my research on breeders, i would be asking that question from the beginning if it wasn't told to me upfront... it shows the breeder you have done the research on how it all works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mas1981 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Hmm note to self to pack rainjackets for tomorrow - just in case any of the kids are on a pass and need to do stays Can we do stays under a gazebo? That's even if I make it to stays! Ruby doesn't have a rain jacket. If she did, she'd need one with a hood too, the big wuss.... Just got Mason's raincoat in the mail today, he is so funny though as he wont move when he is wearing it he freezes, if I let him wear it for stays it would be cheating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 What happened to your name MM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mas1981 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 There is a lot of Parvo in Midland, there was an article on it in our local paper..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) What happened to your name MM! I just noticed it too! M1981 is harder to type than MM And to parvo in Midland Edited for spelling... Edited May 21, 2010 by mirawee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I'm just gonna call you Mas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 There is a lot of Parvo in Midland, there was an article on it in our local paper..... There was a Rottweiler with suspected parvo when I was at the vet on Wednesday . That was Midland area to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I'm going to continue calling you MM because I'm not good with change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Which leads me to another question (genuine one! I'm very interested in how all this works!) To those breeders who withhold papers until desexing with the contract, do your puppy buyers know up front that they won't be receiving the papers and at what point in the process are they informed? Ours are told in the very first phone call or email. They are also told they are sold on spay contract & at what age THEY must be done & the spay refund aspect If we have any qualms we will start spaying prior to them leaving. We dont register our pups until they have left & we are happy with who is main/limited & all the final aspects are sorted. One thing every breeder is very well aware of of besides BYB /puppy farms in certain breeds are also the shonky export dealers who send charming families around to try a get a main pup & then it leaves the country before you now it . we have a 100% spay success rate & the only ones who didnt like our agreements where those who wanted papers to breed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 we have a 100% spay success rate & the only ones who didnt like our agreements where those who wanted papers to breed I take it those people didn't get a puppy or were spoken to further? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) we have a 100% spay success rate & the only ones who didnt like our agreements where those who wanted papers to breed I take it those people didn't get a puppy or were spoken to further? Weren't sold a puppy. When people phone they are told straight about our dogs not sold for breeding. We have a handful sold to show home or dog sport homes on main . Those in show homes have been a mixture of experienced & learners but given our breed is hard work to prepare many are put off once they see what they will have to do. We wont sell on main just in case they want to show because the specialized coat means it has to be done correctly from day 1 & generally we have a very high rate of BYB/DD breeders wanting pups & alot of exporters trying to buy pup/litters.The pitfall of a popular breed. We groom alot of our breed & those who wanted main papers have brought from QLD & generally 2 kennels who sell everything on main/to breed & at mega $$$ for one colour ,as that colour isnt strongely breed it changes so what they have paid for is a lemon colour wise. We groom alot of these dogs & the people try & pick our brains but as they are all explained from our intitial phone contact that breeding .colours & the likes isnt so simple,They dont do there homework but just want. one of these kennels has sold 3 here to be shown,not one has & they all have 4 inch cowlicks down there neck . We will support anyone who is genuine & some breeds have it easier with less popularity but not us,the phone never stops & we get alot of nutters who want them Just read the sunday paper each weekend for the horrid crosses now seen & most of those dogs are QLD breeding crossed to god nows what here I will add we are never rude to these people but we dont go into detail if what they want we cant supply. I have been very lucky to co own,lease & simply be given some wonderful dogs to show so i totally appreciate what chances people have given me but i also now that i proved myself to these people & have had the favour returned with life long friendships & opportunity's many could only dream off. Edited May 21, 2010 by showdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I can imagine showdog it's such a shame! Good on you for being so upfront and honest though... no doubt that weeds out many of the undesirables! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Would you consider co-ownership? Possibly Of course the rules change once again if you want a Mains registered dog, so if the right dog came along, had a good relationship with the breeder, and it all fit and felt right then I'd be open to co-ownership. I can only answer the bolded part of your question... as far as I know, it's quite a high risk at least in WA... apparently, it is a rquirement by DogsWest to register every puppy, but it is not a requirement for every puppy owner to be given the papers. I think in NSW and QLD, the requirement is there that every owner must receive their papers, but here it perhaps is worded differently. either way, as part of my research on breeders, i would be asking that question from the beginning if it wasn't told to me upfront... it shows the breeder you have done the research on how it all works. Thanks, good to know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Hmm note to self to pack rainjackets for tomorrow - just in case any of the kids are on a pass and need to do stays Can we do stays under a gazebo? That's even if I make it to stays! Ruby doesn't have a rain jacket. If she did, she'd need one with a hood too, the big wuss.... Just got Mason's raincoat in the mail today, he is so funny though as he wont move when he is wearing it he freezes, if I let him wear it for stays it would be cheating Can I borrow it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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