Dog Has No Concept Of Spacial Awareness

[jaybeece]

So I've had my dog for 4 years now and in that entire time he's stood on my feet. I'm not talking in a deliberate way, he's just a clutz who has no apparent concept of or respect for spacial awareness.

As an example I went to open the door and he wandered up and stood on my foot, hard. I did what I have done for 4 years which is yell loudly. The he did it again. Another yell. He dropped and started to shake. This is not working.

If he stands on my foot while trying to get past I tell him off, push him back and let him through only when he allows enough space to not hurt me. Does not seem to sink in.

I asked a dog trainer once if it may be dominance and what I can do and she said "Yes, of course" and then walked off. Well, that was helpful.

He's a bit of a sensitive soul and yelling did not work when he was a silly puppy, it does not work now he's a sook. It's like he doesn't actually realise he's doing it and can't understand why he's being told off. How can you stop a dog doing a behaviour he doesn't understand? Cooincidently it's the same problem I have with him licking, he gets told off every time and then just lookes unhappy and licks again. He doesn't seem to understand that I'm yelling at him for the behaviour itself and then gets nervous and licks more. ARGH.

I've tried to teach him to respect my personal space and keep a distance away when he's running around, but it hasn't worked. Ok, it has. He's lovely and polite when he's calm and thinking about things and then it all goes out the window when he's just woken up, it's too hot for brain activity or he's excited about something. So pretty much 90% of the time.

It really bloody hurts as he sometimes does it as he's running past and he's not exactly a light weight.

So does anyone have any suggestions? My bruised and battered feet will be very grateful for any And any ideas about his licking would be very welcome too, although that might be worth another thread.

Edited November 14, 2009 by jaybeece

[persephone]

You need to set him up for sucess!

Put him onlead..and make SURE he is standing where you want him, then praise/treat. repeat, repeat, repeat.

If you are going out a door, or getting food- he does NOT get it, unless away from your person, and on 4 feet only.

NO YELLING.

dogs don't understand yelling...it just makes them anxious and /or excited.

I hate licky dogs.... usually I just give a quiet ,low Gruff! and maybe a flick on the nose. No yelling, or conversation.

Quiet praise and a voice without excitement in it helps ours who are that way inclined, so does not staring at them, and not being too overbearing..

[Janba]

You could try some excersises to make him aware of where he is putting his such as laying a ladder on the ground anf making him walk through it from one end to the other so he has to stup between the rungs, walking along a plank laid on the ground, teaching him to walk backwards. I am sure the agility people will come forward with more.

A lot of dogs don't seem to be aware of exactly where they are putting there feet which isn't a problem when they're a lightweight but can be a pain when they're a boofer.

[jaybeece]

You need to set him up for sucess!

Put him onlead..and make SURE he is standing where you want him, then praise/treat. repeat, repeat, repeat.

If you are going out a door, or getting food- he does NOT get it, unless away from your person, and on 4 feet only.

NO YELLING.

dogs don't understand yelling...it just makes them anxious and /or excited.

I hate licky dogs.... usually I just give a quiet ,low Gruff! and maybe a flick on the nose. No yelling, or conversation.

Quiet praise and a voice without excitement in it helps ours who are that way inclined, so does not staring at them, and not being too overbearing..

Thanks Pers, I have actually tried a quick "Aah!" which is what I always use to correct behaviour, it's just escalated to a yell due to frustration at the fact he just doesn't get it. I'll go back to being consistant with it though. Yelling just makes ME feel better.

The licking once again, I did "Aah!" for ages with no change. I hate licking so much, it's worse when with one lick he can cover half my face in spit. Urgh.

I'll work on the space aspect, although he's already quite good about it. When he's engaging his brain he's really good about pretty much everything, pity it doesn't happen much

I think I am being overbearing which in turn makes him nervous and doesn't engage the brain.

Thanks

You could try some excersises to make him aware of where he is putting his such as laying a ladder on the ground anf making him walk through it from one end to the other so he has to stup between the rungs, walking along a plank laid on the ground, teaching him to walk backwards. I am sure the agility people will come forward with more.

A lot of dogs don't seem to be aware of exactly where they are putting there feet which isn't a problem when they're a lightweight but can be a pain when they're a boofer.

I'll give it a shot Janba, although he's surprisingly coordinated when facing things like that. Go figure

[tdierikx]

I had a male Rotti that did the exact same thing for years... then one day when he turned 5, he grew another brain cell, and it stopped happening... *grin*... I reckon you have a gig gormless puppy who has no clue...

The licking, is it only your face he does it to? Pups show their submission by face licking and cleaning - maybe he's doing that?

I'm not sure exactly how to do it, but he needs his confidence boosted somehow, and I reckon that you'll see a totally different dog once that happens. Yelling is only going to make him more submissive methinks. How about when he does something you don't like, you just "uuhh" him and walk away or turn your back on him - essentially withdrawing the attention he is seeking with these behaviours?

T.

[Nekhbet]

he's nervous because he's confused and you shouted at him. Why did you shout? Deaf or not deaf you dont need to shout at a dog they simply panic or shut down. He also doesnt fully understand what 'arhhh' means so he continues. DOes it mean stop for a second, stop for 5, or stop completely?

when he comes near you I do the old knee out routine - bump with the knee to let him know he's too close. As for zoomies just walk off if he's being a nut OR have some food in your hand. WHen he comes to you hold a bigger piece of food out at face height but at arms length. When he barrels at you wave it so he sees and he will head for that. Then SIT, calm dog gets fod, GOOD BOY, FREE!

As for licking, just push him off. If he goes for your face again put your hand around his muzzle and just hold for a while until he gets the idea that licking is not on.

you just have to be a little clearer and more consistant

[Vickie]

Agree with what the others have said, yelling at best is ineffective. I will use my knee if a dog is coming to jump at me but if they are just running/walking into me then I make sure I step into them first. So it's kind of like I step into their space before they get into mine. It's seems to work with most dogs. Worth a try anyway.

[Miss BeRidgierent]

I totally know where you are coming from. When I get home I have to stick my bum out and put my hands out so he is kept as far away from my feet, but still manages to get me at least once! I think hes actually broken a toe before because he stood on it something crazy like 10 times once because he got sooooo excited that he was going for a drive. Its not cool when the dog weighs almost more then you

Edited November 24, 2009 by Miss BeRidgierent

[Sarah8]

you can try a few other exercises which can help, most of all just try to be consistent. if he is being pushy, just say 'ah' and walk away, withdraw your attention- he seems like the kind of dog who loves your attention, you must be the centre of his world so taking that away might get his attention quicker than scolding him.

that dog trainer was right in saying that its about dominance. what she probably meant is that dogs assert dominance by 'claiming their space'. dominant dogs have a bubble of space around them and the way they walk and act asserts this dominance. submisssive dogs won't jump on them , they might approach in a submissive way and lick their face and cower, wagging slowly, but wont tread on the dog! whether he means to or not, he is just doing what is natural, he may see you as a litter mate or buddy and not as his leader. by doing a few things to strengthen your leadership he will view you more as a leader and not invade your space. even if he doesn't mean to, if he looks to you as a leader, he will be careufl not to step on you or invade your space. being a leader does NOT mean showing him who's boss. it just means making him look up to you and appreciate you, that you are the provider of food, resources and fun time. reward good behaviour, ignore his bad behavour by withdrawing your attention.

you could try these guidelines for a week and see if it makes any difference. dont let him sit on you if he does say 'ah' and gently push him away, if he still doesnt listen just walk away and ignore him (withdraw your attention, give him the silent treatment, dont say anything). this might work more effectively because he doesn't seem to take well to confrontation.

when feeding him, let him watch you getting his food ready, ask him to sit and wait, stand in front of the food bowl if you can, like you are claiming the food bowl. then let him eat it. you can even pretend to eat the biscuits before you give it to him. Behavioursit Jane Fennell studied these techniques. these are all things that a dominant dog would be able to do. if he has a favorite toy or object, place it on the floor, stand over it and 'claim it'. make him move away from it. then when he 'gives in' give it back to him and reward him. dont let him sleep on your bed or up on the couch for a week, all these subtle changes can result in a big change in his behaviour.

Good luck!!

[Erny]

Try exercises that actually get your dog to yield to your space.

My dog has learnt the above, as well as "move" and "get off" very well .

[Mym]

We have been doing training with our foster failure collie rough here. His stepping on your feet is definitely dominance but it only happens when we are doing some small circle work which is part of the training outlined to us by a professional behaviourist. We have also used online modules by Cesar Milan which have been great but this is so specific to our dog and the difference is dramatic.

We are using 'uh uh' very firmly, but not yelling, just staying calm, assertive and being the boss. We also have leads tied in different parts of the house and we have 'time out' for about five minutes at a time. At the moment, he is not getting to go to the door when people arrive etc and he has to work for every pat or reward by obeying a command. It is tough love here but the results make it worth it.

This is only part of what we are doing but the difference in only five days is very marked. His issue is dominance and fear aggression, and extreme jealously of the other collie here.

[jaybeece]

I had a male Rotti that did the exact same thing for years... then one day when he turned 5, he grew another brain cell, and it stopped happening... *grin*... I reckon you have a gig gormless puppy who has no clue...

The licking, is it only your face he does it to? Pups show their submission by face licking and cleaning - maybe he's doing that?

I'm not sure exactly how to do it, but he needs his confidence boosted somehow, and I reckon that you'll see a totally different dog once that happens. Yelling is only going to make him more submissive methinks. How about when he does something you don't like, you just "uuhh" him and walk away or turn your back on him - essentially withdrawing the attention he is seeking with these behaviours?

T.

Right, so maybe in 3 months when he hits 5 years old it'll stop He really is a big puppy, people at obedience school are stunned when I tell them he's almost 5 as they were expecting maybe 2.

Licking is anywhere he can reach and usually one big slurp. I think you're right about the confidence link, he is nervy and yelling doesn't help that. And then in turn he's licking more. I do completely ignore him and/or withdraw any attention when he licks, but he just doesn't get it. Maybe it's making him even more anxious to get my attention, resulting in more licking? I dunno.

he's nervous because he's confused and you shouted at him. Why did you shout? Deaf or not deaf you dont need to shout at a dog they simply panic or shut down. He also doesnt fully understand what 'arhhh' means so he continues.

Total and complete frustration. I haven't always yelled (that was worded badly), for the first few years it was just the generic "Ahh!" meaning, whatever you're doing now is not cool. It works for everything else, just not when trying to protect my poor feet or to stop him licking.

when he comes near you I do the old knee out routine - bump with the knee to let him know he's too close. As for zoomies just walk off if he's being a nut OR have some food in your hand. WHen he comes to you hold a bigger piece of food out at face height but at arms length. When he barrels at you wave it so he sees and he will head for that. Then SIT, calm dog gets fod, GOOD BOY, FREE!

I have tried things like this, but perhaps not consistently enough.

As for licking, just push him off. If he goes for your face again put your hand around his muzzle and just hold for a while until he gets the idea that licking is not on.

And I've tried this too, a LOT. No use, he just comes back more determined or looks really upset about me holding his muzzle.

you just have to be a little clearer and more consistant

Yes, I'm beginning to get that impression

I totally know where you are coming from. When I get home I have to stick my bum out and put my hands out so he is kept as far away from my feet, but still manages to get me at least once! I think hes actually broken a toe before because he stood on it something crazy like 10 times once because he got sooooo excited that he was going for a drive. Its not cool when the dog weighs almost more then you :D

Glad I'm not the only one God but it hurts doesn't it!

that dog trainer was right in saying that its about dominance. what she probably meant is that dogs assert dominance by 'claiming their space'. dominant dogs have a bubble of space around them and the way they walk and act asserts this dominance. submisssive dogs won't jump on them , they might approach in a submissive way and lick their face and cower, wagging slowly, but wont tread on the dog! whether he means to or not, he is just doing what is natural, he may see you as a litter mate or buddy and not as his leader. by doing a few things to strengthen your leadership he will view you more as a leader and not invade your space. even if he doesn't mean to, if he looks to you as a leader, he will be careufl not to step on you or invade your space. being a leader does NOT mean showing him who's boss. it just means making him look up to you and appreciate you, that you are the provider of food, resources and fun time. reward good behaviour, ignore his bad behavour by withdrawing your attention.

you could try these guidelines for a week and see if it makes any difference. dont let him sit on you if he does say 'ah' and gently push him away, if he still doesnt listen just walk away and ignore him (withdraw your attention, give him the silent treatment, dont say anything). this might work more effectively because he doesn't seem to take well to confrontation.

when feeding him, let him watch you getting his food ready, ask him to sit and wait, stand in front of the food bowl if you can, like you are claiming the food bowl. then let him eat it. you can even pretend to eat the biscuits before you give it to him. Behavioursit Jane Fennell studied these techniques. these are all things that a dominant dog would be able to do. if he has a favorite toy or object, place it on the floor, stand over it and 'claim it'. make him move away from it. then when he 'gives in' give it back to him and reward him. dont let him sleep on your bed or up on the couch for a week, all these subtle changes can result in a big change in his behaviour.

While I appreciate you taking the time to reply, this really isn't him. He is not allowed on the bed or couch unless invited and this is not often, he does not eat unless told to and his toys are not his, they're mine. I think we're pretty ok in terms of "dominance" in this house. I've been following NILIF religiously since he was 6 months old.

I don't really agree that the trainer who dismissively said "oh yes, it's dominance" before wandering off. She had no concept of the relationship we have or my dog's personality, it felt to me like a generic response to my question rather than one that was well thought out. That was kinda how that obedience school worked though, one size fits all training.

My current trainer has been dealing with us for a couple of months now and he doesn't think it'd dominance either. He's a stubborn bugger (dog, not trainer), but when there is nothing else to suggest dominant behaviour I find it hard to believe that standing on my feet in a clumsy way is related to dominance.

These days I'm a little skeptical about blaming undesirable behaviour on dominance anyway. Why can't a dog just behave a certain way without having an agenda? They're animals with emotions and personalities and I don't think every move can just be whacked with a dominant or submissive label. It's far too simplistic for such a behaviourally complex (and frequently silly) animal.

Try exercises that actually get your dog to yield to your space.

My dog has learnt the above, as well as "move" and "get off" very well .

Alright, will do Erny He knows move, well...sort of :D He's away with the pixies sometimes so it takes some nudging for him to get the message.

Thanks again for the ideas everyone, I can see where I've been going wrong (a lot) and have a few things to work on that I think will help.

[Nekhbet]

you're giving in too easily

if he comes back for more then repeat the muzzle holding or push him off completely and send him away. Your dog only needs to be told once, not multiple times then it becomes a battle of the witless you can't have things both ways - inconsistancy breeds problem behaviors

Sarah8 Dominance isnt that clear cut black and white. My dogs have a bit of free reign, we've had moments of stacks on buried under over 100kg combined weight of dog at our place. They still listen to me and know if they dont there are repercussions. As for the pretending to eat out of the dogs food, really it makes little difference. Obedience, training and all round lifestyle change do more then pretending to eat, it sometimes just becomes a pattern for the dog to sit through and not something that is earth shatteringly life changing to the dogs overall attitude.

Remember too the mastiff breeds are more body, touch feely type dogs. They want to lay their bodies against your leg, they want to sit on your feet. It's a breed trait, I've even had shy bitches do it and they they stare up at you tongue lolling for affection. You can't tar all dogs with the same brush. I do believe in dominance but not the decades old couch, food and bed routine.

[jaybeece]

you're giving in too easily

if he comes back for more then repeat the muzzle holding or push him off completely and send him away. Your dog only needs to be told once, not multiple times then it becomes a battle of the witless you can't have things both ways - inconsistancy breeds problem behaviors

Alright, that makes sense Battle of the witless part especially

Remember too the mastiff breeds are more body, touch feely type dogs. They want to lay their bodies against your leg, they want to sit on your feet. It's a breed trait, I've even had shy bitches do it and they they stare up at you tongue lolling for affection. You can't tar all dogs with the same brush. I do believe in dominance but not the decades old couch, food and bed routine.

This is so so so true. I never realised how mastiff-y he is in personality until I had a conversation with a lady who owns a gorgeous mastiff bitch and compared temperaments. I've done so many things wrong over the years because I didn't understand how he ticks and we're finally getting on the right track.