One Of My Dogs Has Started To Attack The Other One

[sterlingsilver]

My small male desexed terrrier has started to growl and attack my old female spoodle.He is 9, she is 13 and has lived with us for 3 years.

It was just growling for some months and related to food initially, but of recent weeks it has gone onto the terrier trying to stop the old girl coming into the loungeroom, or if she pases him while he is sitting in his basket in the other rooms of the house. I ensure there is not food put down to cause any arguments.

They otherwise get on very well.When travelling in the car, out on their walks.

The old girl does steal his dinner if the oportunity presents itself, so I have to guard the food until he is finished eating.

The female is submissive in the beginning but has started to defend herself , while I am racing to pull them apart.

I have tried the spray water bottle when the trrier starts to growl, slapping the floor with a rolled up newspaper, loud noises, anything to distract him.Chastising him when he starts to growl. All to no avail.Tonight was the worst it has been and they were full on before I had a chance to come from another room to pull him off her.It is a little like a girly fight, not seemingly serious, until tonight.

So far, thank God, neither have been hurt.

Now I am concerned that I should not leave them in the house together to go out at all.I work from home, so am here the greater part of the time.

They get two long walks a day.

I am also concerned as the terrier is sitting in his basket in the lounge room, forever looking to check on the doorway for when the girl is coming and he now seems anxious and stressed.

He weighs 4kg and she weighs 11.5 kg.

Any suggestions please.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

My small male desexed terrrier has started to growl and attack my old female spoodle.He is 9, she is 13 and has lived with us for 3 years.

Any suggestions please.

I am not going to suggest any anti-aggression training as someone really needs to observe what is going on. Get someone qualified in to have a look.

I am going to suggest you get a health check on the 13 y/o dog who is being attacked - especially as she is in the age range where dogs start to come to their end of their lives. Often dogs will escalate against, or turn on, older members of the pack when they become ill or frail. Not something that sits well with our human values, but pretty common.

[Jigsaw]

Agree with SSM but add I'd get them both health check just to be sure. You need someone to see exactly what's happening but if you can feed them in separate rooms and not letting them back together until food is eaten and bowls removed it might reduce some of the fighting in the meantime.

[Aidan]

I have tried the spray water bottle when the trrier starts to growl, slapping the floor with a rolled up newspaper, loud noises, anything to distract him.Chastising him when he starts to growl. All to no avail.Tonight was the worst it has been and they were full on before I had a chance to come from another room to pull him off her.It is a little like a girly fight, not seemingly serious, until tonight.

So far, thank God, neither have been hurt.

The obligatory medical checks have already been suggested, if you can see a veterinary behaviourist, even better.

Spray bottles, loud noises etc can make matters worse. I know it's hard, but unless you have a very well trained recall or drop, just try to stay calm until you really have to break something up. I say "until" because in the absence of well-intentioned but misguided intervention often all you will see is some ritualised aggression and then it's all over without any blood or real harm. You have a problem when it goes beyond this, one dog ignore the social signalling of the other, or the more submissive dog starts to live with stress, pushed to the fringes, avoiding anything to upset the aggressor.

Certainly separate them when you are not there to supervise.

Here is an excellent article, heavy reading, but very informative:

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings...1&O=Generic

[Diablo]

Food aggression is common amoungst dogs where it appears to be where the growling originated. Having experienced that in the past with two dogs an older and younger adopted dog I have since proofed my dogs from an early age in training that food is nothing that they need to protect and makes life easier down the track.

In the OP's situation, I would feed each dog separately in another room intially to avoid the onset of an aggressive episode which in time should calm any necessity or reason for unrelated aggression towards each other. It appears that food being the trigger has extended into other unwanted behaviours which ultimately needs to be assessed by a trainer/behaviourist to determine what is really happening and the best method of correction.

[Nekhbet]

you have an aging dog and it is natural for the other to take over. This has also meant you have allowed the dogs, to a degree, to rule themselves. Unless you are leader chastise will do little, and you risk being 'chastised' yourself by the dog as well.

you need to teach your terrier that he is NOT the boss, you are. Ultimately you should always be. You are simply more a barrier then a leader to your dogs and you need to work with them to prevent more arguments. You are also in a very very common predicament!

email me with further details, if you are in Victoria I can come to see or suggest others

[sterlingsilver]

Thankyou all, for for your advice, it has been very helpful.Very kind of you to take the time to reply to my post.

I read the link Aidan, and whilst it was heavy going ,I waded through it. It did make sense, but also debunked a lot I had previously been told over the years about dogs and their behaviour.

Nekhbet, I am in Sydney, so cannot take you up on your kind offer, but thankyou.

I realise my husband and I are the ones to take the lead. I am determined to succeed.My husband is not a good dog handler.I think he could do with more training than the 2 dogs!!Luckily though I am around them for the most of the awake time, so will have more of a chance to implement some much needed changes.

I am having them both vet checked next Wednesday just in case there is something amiss.They both are under regular vet care, so it would be something underlying that has been missed and nothing obvious, with no symptoms.

I even read bits of Cesar Milan's book, but couldnt find anything quite applicable.

Up until now they have both been well behaved and well socialised and whilst not bosom buddies, got along very well.

I have now started to feed the terrier in a closed room and leave him there until he has finished.

The old girl is food obsessed but is on a strict diabetic diet, which is well controlled and her weight is perfect.

I will let you know how we go.Thankyou.

Edited November 14, 2009 by sterlingsilver

[corvus]

Cesar Millan would probably tell you to correct the terrier. IME, correcting dogs that have ALREADY had a go at another dog is completely ineffective. The only thing it does is make your dog run away from you right after they've snapped. If you are going to be successful with correcting it you have to interrupt it before it happens every single time.

I think that you have to try to treat these problems at their source. If I had followed the second point in the article Aidan posted when I started having problems with my older dog going at my pup right from the start, it would have been a lot better for all of us. Instead I tried to use time outs and it made things worse. Any kind of aversive towards my older dog made it worse. Giving her extra attention made it better. Our problems were creeping towards the last scenario in that article, but I think mostly because my older dog was nearly deaf and blind and was going senile. She was in pain and not acting like herself anymore. I wonder if she even knew our younger dog was trying so deperately to avoid confrontations with her.

I think separating at meal times is a sensible first step. You might be lucky and have that resolve the issue. I try to minimise situations that might produce contest as much as possible between my two dogs. It's much better to avoid making your dogs feel like they are competing for something in the first place if you can.

[Nekhbet]

corvus I will never recommend simply giving in and giving them everything they want. If a dog thinks he needs something, hell they can sit on a mountain of food and STILL want that bit the other dog has.

Instead I tried to use time outs and it made things worse. Any kind of aversive towards my older dog made it worse.

Sorry hun but the more I read your posts the more I see your dogs rule you. They are dogs. Dont like it, tough. Of course they will offer resilience but instead of sticking it out you gave in at the first hint of confrontation. You own a predator with an intrinsic need to control or be controlled.

remember as well ilness in an older dog can illicit this behavior. Your terrier is stressed and thinks he has to take over because the older female is falling off the pedestal. SHe still has enough in her to say no but now he's getting pushy. Basically they're working it out for themselves.

-they need more obedience and time one on one to come to respect the owners

-less acceptance of the dog posessing anything. Never say this is X's object, no it is YOUR object the dog simply uses it when you say so

- I would be giving them a crate each so they can have some time away from each other as well, especially the sick dog. Feed in the crates as well so you have piece of mind about no one attacking the other. The dogs will see them as their bedrooms, make them comfy and they will love them.

- If you see the terrier eyeballing the older dog chastise and send him off, show him it is unacceptable. Show him where his comfortable place is and that he has an opportunity to be a good dog and get something for it as well.

Whenever aggressiveness starts you need to start ruling these dogs lives more to prevent escalation or generalisation to other situations. You dont fight fire with fire, fight it with a calm yet intelligent attitude.

the way to address aggression is to address the anxiety that goes with it. Dogs do have a heirachy and this modern age of lets all go hand in paw as equals is not true and frankly dangerous. I never advocate hurting, terrorising or scaring your dogs to submit, but remember as a parent leads, chastises and teaches as a child as you should your dog. Dogs are not people and hence you need to remember they come with their own way of thinking and a big set of teeth to back it up when required.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Nekhbet

[corvus]

corvus I will never recommend simply giving in and giving them everything they want. If a dog thinks he needs something, hell they can sit on a mountain of food and STILL want that bit the other dog has.

Nor would I, Nekhbet, and if that was the impression I gave then I would like to make it clear that it was not the impression I meant to give. But if you want to address the problem at its source you have to fulfill your dog's needs. If your dog feels like they need extra attention to feel secure, then you have three choices. You can ignore it and correct the resulting aggression. You can treat the symptom and give your dog more attention, or you can follow from symptom to symptom until you find the root cause of the problem. Aggression is just what's on the surface. My dogs always think they want what the other dog is getting, but that doesn't mean they get it or a fight breaks out. Given that Kivi doesn't fight a fight never breaks out, but we manage situations where contest may occur so that even if one dog gets it into his head that he can harass the other until he gets what he wants, he can't because he can't physically get to that dog. We have two of everything here. Once they realise it's all the same they concentrate on what they have.

Instead I tried to use time outs and it made things worse. Any kind of aversive towards my older dog made it worse.

Sorry hun but the more I read your posts the more I see your dogs rule you. They are dogs. Dont like it, tough. Of course they will offer resilience but instead of sticking it out you gave in at the first hint of confrontation. You own a predator with an intrinsic need to control or be controlled.

The only time one can say that a dog is ruling a person is if that dog controls that person. My dogs don't get to dictate to me, and people on this forum will just have to either take my word for it or not. Avoiding confrontations doesn't make someone permissive. At the time, my older dog could rail all she liked on the other side of the baby gate and I ignored it, but the behaviour never got better. In fact it got worse. I kept up time outs for months thinking that I just needed to be more consistent or quicker in removing her. I tried verbal corrections. I tried body blocking. I gave up the day my dog saw me coming after she'd snapped at Kivi and ran away. I realised I'd been battling this for so long with methods that if they did anything it made the matter worse. Not just as a one off, but over months. I tried just giving her more one-on-one time and it resulted instantly in less snapping. :rolleyes: Wish I'd figured it out faster.

Otherwise, I agree with most of what you have said.

[Are You Serious Jo]

So corvus, when your dog has another small dog in it's mouth holding it still and you can't recall your dog do you think you are in control? I've seen the "he's only being friendly" too often to take a chance. From what you post you don't seem to have effective control over your dog. I worry when I see you suggest to other that they should let their dogs sort out their differences because reading between the lines in your posts you misinterpret a lot of their behaviour.

[Nekhbet]

The only time one can say that a dog is ruling a person is if that dog controls that person. My dogs don't get to dictate to me,

They throw a fit or bad behavior at you so you stop trying to control them and in fact give them more of what they want when they want ... if that is not controlling what you do I dont know what is

[corvus]

*yawn* Bored tonight, are we jdavis?

FYI, you have misunderstood what I meant by control. As a primatologist I would have thought you'd have a reasonable understanding of dominance and its purpose, which is essentially about controlling resources, is it not? Not much to do with good recalls in dogs, although I have a video of my dog's recall and have posted it if you need proof that he is quite capable of coming when called. Alas, I do not have any videos of him coming away from other dogs because it's not an easy one to set up. As if whether I can recall my dog or not even has anything to do with this topic.

I was posting in support of the article Aidan posted. If you have a problem with the advice in the article, why don't you contribute to the discussion in a useful manner by outlining that problem and what you would do instead? If I had my time again, I would have done the second point sooner rather than later.

ETA Like I said Nekhbet, either you take my word for it or you don't. But it seems you would also like to ignore half of what I said as well as not taking my word for it. It wasn't throwing a fit of bad behaviour. I saw no decrease in the behaviour I was trying to reduce after several months and I saw evidence to suggest my dog knew what the consequences of this behaviour would be. So I concluded the method wasn't working and changed tactics. I never rewarded her bad behaviour with more attention. I added it in when she was being good and saw less bad behaviour. I thought it was fair, seeing as I'd been giving her less attention with the new puppy around.

Edited November 15, 2009 by corvus

[Are You Serious Jo]

Not bored, I just get worried that people that have little knowledge come here asking questions and might be given incorrect advice that may result in injury or death of their dogs. I am familiar with the concept of dominance, but also realise that hierarchies in primates are different to that seen in domestic dogs, or that seen in wild canids or behaviours of lagomorphs.

If your dog refuses to come when you call him then he is calling the shots, whether you acknowledge it or not. When it comes to the topic in the OP I strongly encourage the writer to seek out the advice of qualified professionals because more than one DOLer has had issues arise with aggression and come home to a dead dog. You may wish to raise your dogs with little intervention other than trick training, but others can't manage this because their dogs can and will injure each other.

[corvus]

If your dog refuses to come when you call him then he is calling the shots, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Ummm.... I hate to say this, but apparently no one else is. That is an incredibly over-simplified interpretation. There are a myriad of reasons why a dog wouldn't come when called, and most of them truly have nothing to do with dominance. You are making a few huge assumptions with that statement, such as that the dog has actually been trained to come when called, and that he/she was not so aroused that they didn't even hear you. I'd hate for someone who doesn't know much about dogs to come on here and be given incorrect advice...

To the OP, one of the worst things I have ever witnessed was my dog dangling from the jaws of our other dog. It's not something to mess around with, but ritualised aggression between dogs is quite normal. I'm glad you read the article Aidan posted, because it's a good guide to what is normal aggression and what is not. I wasn't actually giving advice, just sharing my experiences.